A move into new territory for me . . . ?

CJSF

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Having a think . . . a long think, I cant, dont want to change my system sound, its the way I want it . . . however, reading various threads, one sees the cable debate running. I've always been sceptical of cable, more because of the silvered cables available that I have always found earring towards bright.

However, I'm hearing good things about 'Atlas Hyper 2', more detail, and improved image, use of OFC, quality 'Z' plugs? I've been talking to 'Future Shop' in Borehamwood, they are prepared to supply me with a pair of 7m cables on sale or return. They tell me the cable needs conditioning (running in) up to 100 hours!!! which they will do at no extra cost on the special machine they have for the job. I listen, if I get what I want from the cable, everyone is happy, no improvement, return it and get my money back, less the postage.

I'm looking for more image, extra detail will be a nice bonus, but no significant change in sound signature? I know the system is capable, I have a couple of recordings that are head and shoulders above anything else I have in the imaging department.

Any one got any ideas, views on 'Hyper 2', (I'm particularly interested in views on the 'running in' of cables, is that la la land?) or do you have an alternative? . . . cost is significant, 7m x 2 @ £15.75pm + postage, thats my limit!

CJSF
 

bluebrazil

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i have no experience of the atlas hyper but i have always found the differences in speaker cables a lot more noticable than the subtle differences a change of interconnect can make. saying that ive gone from multi strand copper to silver plated multi strand copper to solid core copper, always a change of substance. i guess everybody is gonna say buy em if you like them, return them if you dont. not so sure on this pre burn in malarcy, but if they say you dont need to use them for 100 hours to hear them at their optimum they certainly arent trying to rob you.
 

CnoEvil

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CJ, the Hyper 2 is great cable and Big Chris gives a verdict here (post 9 on last page):

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/atlas-hyper-20-conundrum-what-would-you-do?page=4#comment-2647882

You should also check out Telurium Q (my preference for you): http://www.telluriumq.com/

and here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/tellurium-q-blackany-thoughts

There is also a "Blue" version of the s/c cable which is great VFM.
 

CJSF

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Thanks for the replies gents, at £45pm . . . I'm afraid the Tellurium black is way above what I'm prepared to pay, same applies to the Blue at £40 . . . :wall:

I like the price, cough_cough . . . better at £16pm + sale and return option :cheer:

The link you gave to Tellurium ConEvil, confirms they also believe that cables need running in . . . over a few days.

Now that one will raise a few eyebrows in the 'cable make no difference camp' . . . thanks again for the link :cheers:

. . . what am I doing to my self, new, expensive cables??? . . . 8) CJSF
 
I must say that the whole idea of 'burning in' anything has put me in doubt most of the time regards purchasing anything that is said to require it unless it has actually been pre-performed.
Most of my auditions have obviously been done on items that were not 'fresh out of the box'.
The idea of buying an item that you are told will sound 'right' in 100 hours time leaves me cold.
Mostly it is first impressions that count and you can often take the 'improves with age' preamble with a pinch of salt. What if it doesn't?
If you are trying to integrate it into your known system what is it going to do to the overall sound in the future?
Audition everthing - and do not take for granted it is going to improve any.
If it needs burning in then get them to do it before you buy. Then audition it again!
 

SteveR750

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I think burning in of speakers is noticeable to the majority of people, even an in car hi fi improves with runnig in. I am a bit sceptical about the sonic improvements with electronics, let alone IC's and speaker cables.
 

CJSF

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I have my doubts over running cables in? . . . however, 'Future Shop' recommend it and say they will 'precondition Atlas Hyper 2' free of charge, so its straight out of the box first impressions, not right . . . it goes back and they have to refund, their reputation is in the balance . . . the web is a powerful thing?

No mentioning of preconditioning 'Tellurium' . . . 'do it yourself job', it would appear, trusting the end result is what you want?

Raises the question in my mind, is the cable 'directional as well' :twisted: . . . ??? :type:

CJSF
 

CnoEvil

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CJSF said:
Thanks for the replies gents, at £45pm . . . I'm afraid the Tellurium black is way above what I'm prepared to pay, same applies to the Blue at £40 . . . :wall:

I like the price, cough_cough . . . better at £16pm + sale and return option :cheer:

The link you gave to Tellurium ConEvil, confirms they also believe that cables need running in . . . over a few days.

Now that one will raise a few eyebrows in the 'cable make no difference camp' . . . thanks again for the link :cheers:

. . . what am I doing to my self, new, expensive cables??? . . . 8) CJSF

A 2M set of TQ Blue (unterminated I think) is £49.50, and might be worth every penny...trial and return is essential.
http://www.lintone.co.uk/tellurium-q/tellurium-q-blue-speaker-cable-1538-207-2691.php
 

CJSF

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CnoEvil said:
CJSF said:
Thanks for the replies gents, at £45pm . . . I'm afraid the Tellurium black is way above what I'm prepared to pay, same applies to the Blue at £40 . . . :wall:

I like the price, cough_cough . . . better at £16pm + sale and return option :cheer:

The link you gave to Tellurium ConEvil, confirms they also believe that cables need running in . . . over a few days.

Now that one will raise a few eyebrows in the 'cable make no difference camp' . . . thanks again for the link :cheers:

. . . what am I doing to my self, new, expensive cables??? . . . 8) CJSF

A 2M set of TQ Blue (unterminated I think) is £49.50, and might be worth every penny...trial and return is essential.

Thats a bit different to £40pm!

Thanks ConEvil, CJSF
 

Macspur

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Alears said:
I must say that the whole idea of 'burning in' anything has put me in doubt most of the time regards purchasing anything that is said to require it unless it has actually been pre-performed. Most of my auditions have obviously been done on items that were not 'fresh out of the box'. The idea of buying an item that you are told will sound 'right' in 100 hours time leaves me cold. Mostly it is first impressions that count and you can often take the 'improves with age' preamble with a pinch of salt. What if it doesn't? If you are trying to integrate it into your known system what is it going to do to the overall sound in the future? Audition everthing - and do not take for granted it is going to improve any. If it needs burning in then get them to do it before you buy. Then audition it again!

Great points made. Just had an Esoteric DV60 on home demo and didn't like it straight away and the dealer tried to convince me to to keep it claiming it needed 300-400 hours of burn in time. Not saying I didn't believe it, but just not prepared to take the risk.
 
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As long as he's prepared to take it back in 300-400 hours time and you get that written on paper, then job done. Put him - and it - to the test. Why should you have to put up with a possible dud on the back of their say-so? There's 168 hours in a week, so in real terms you're talking a good two months before you can realistically do it (and then not do much else in your spare time). Wonder if the dealer would be happy taking it back then?!
 

SteveR750

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That's a ridiculous caveat to place upon a piece of electronic consumer goods, who on earth is fooling who there. When I bought my CD6SE, there was an almost proud statement within the box informing me that it would take hours and hours to reach its best, as if it were some kind of fine wine. Well it's not, and like most things it depreciated as soon as it was opened and fired up; I actually found it annoying; why couldn't it have been run in read for me to enjoy immediately? We don't half absorb some nonsense as customers in this particular market.
 
Spot on that man. If its not 'fit for purpose' straight out of the box why waste your money on it. It may improve - but to who's ears? Would you chance your money on it? Also, as quite rightly pointed out. it's losing money as soon as you open that box. Buyer beware!
 

Macspur

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Some great points here.
Recently home demoed a CDP myself and knew after a couple of hours it wasn't what I wanted, but the dealer insisted I give it some more burn in time, I duely did, but no change- then advised to change my cables... didn't want to go down that road and asked for my money back.
 
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Psychology says, if you want to hear an improvment in these areas of detail and imaging, then you will probably hear an improvement in the imaging and detail. So go into it with a positive mind set and you wont be dissapointed. If you go into it with some niggling doubts, you'll probably not like them and send them back.
 

Cypher

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lejockey said:
Psychology says, if you want to hear an improvment in these areas of detail and imaging, then you will probably hear an improvement in the imaging and detail. So go into it with a positive mind set and you wont be dissapointed. If you go into it with some niggling doubts, you'll probably not like them and send them back.

They call that 'psychoacoustics'.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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CJSF said:
However, I'm hearing good things about 'Atlas Hyper 2', more detail, and improved image, use of OFC, quality 'Z' plugs?

hi. I'm using Hyper 2.0, ICs and SCs, and really like them. Hyper SC replaced Qed Revelation in my current system and I think it was a change for better. but in my previous set up I liked Revelation more. that was a time when I thought a cable can have some influence on SQ. but now it's clear to me a cable is just a conductor. so if it doesn't sound good with simple copper wire it's due to electronics or room acoustic, not cables IMO. if you're looking for more detail and improved image I think you should look elsewhere. my best bet would be the speakers.
 

CJSF

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Thanks for the help guys . . . I am looking at this with an open mind, sort of . . . :? I dont want to change the sound, so that means no physical change to the boxes. I'm reading how the image opens with these Super OFC cables, I'll have a bit of that, extra detail perhaps because of the extra openness, thats a bonus. If I dont hear any improvement in the way I want, it goes back and I settle down with my pipe and slippers . . . If its mind blowing better overall . . . I will need to re think?

The construction of these modern cables is more sophisticated than the bog standard Linn K20, for instance. PTFE is supposed to be a better insulating material, no idea what Linn use but it dont look like PTFE, I doubt the copper is 99.999% OFC either? . . . but then, its only £5pm.

It may not matter, may all be 'smoke and mirrors', believe me, if it is a load of bunkum, I will say so, only in respect of my set up of course. I dont believe in having the wool pulled over my eyes, I speak as I find, what I hear is reality. When I was tweaking the P5, I found the Acrylic platter worked well, however, a further change down the line had a detrimental affect, I retraced back to the Rega Glass Platter, halfway house, sounded about right.

Regularly one reads threads where it is obviously extolling; expensive = better, out to impress, "it cost how much, must be good then"??? . . . in hifi, one has to be honest to ones self. It will drive you mad if not . . . 'nearly' been to loony land on more than one occasions, some might say I'm there now? :cheers:

I'm simply seeing what can be achieved at my 'budget/used' level . . . The sound I have is warm and analogue, but not syrupy, the image is totally out of the speakers, even poor recording present some sort of image. The best are performances that bring a satisfied smile to our faces, the one or two exceptional recordings are simply goosebump creating, hair standing experiences one looks forward to playing regularly, they are the reason for often not getting to bed before 2 o'clock . . . and later:wall:

CJSF
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Hi CJSF. I see in your sig you've decided on the cart. can you share your impressions? did you have a chance to check the Benz-Micro Ace as well (I think you were thinking about trying it out too)?
 
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CJSF said:
...but then, its only £5pm....

I wouldn't lose any sleep over that; 10m of my 322-strand that I bought a while back cost me £5.50 delivered. It replaced Audioquest Type IV that currently sells for about £13/m. Sound quality didn't miss a beat. Check out Roger Russell's page for some useful reference material minus all the hyperbole about expensive bits of copper.
 

CJSF

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oldric_naubhoff said:
Hi CJSF. I see in your sig you've decided on the cart. can you share your impressions? did you have a chance to check the Benz-Micro Ace as well (I think you were thinking about trying it out too)?

. . . If I could have got hold of a Benz Ace??? . . . My investigations led me up so many blind alleys, ie Benz dealers that had no stock or could only offer the Glider or above!!! "Yes, they will be coming in to the country soon", I was told!!!

So of course one gets exposed to options, and more options. I was prepared to travel almost anywhere . . . then talking one day to my friendly non Benz dealer just around the corner . . . who had already loaned me 3 cartridges. He happened to have taken the Sumiko as a trade in that day . . . I had nothing to loose, it sounded great, so sophisticated in comparison with what I had tried. I paid the trade in allowance price £200, working on the basis, that a re-build and re-tip was £300, so at worst, I had a £1500, reference wood bodied cartridge for £500, that exhibited all the good properties in one package that I had heard in all the others put together.

The Sumiko is an unassuming cartridge initially, then one starts to hear information presented that draws you in, one realises here is a performance unfolding in front of you. It took some understanding to start with, we are so used to a cartridge or new item in a system presenting its self . . . 'this is me' . . . It became obviously as I listened, the Sumiko was blending in, it has that involving mid band that quality cartridges exhibit that is easy, full bodied but allowing the the recording to express. Top end is smooth and extended with out being in the least edgy, dynamic edges are dramatically clean, the lower frequencies play tunes and is extended as required. Its an overall cartridge, very balanced, presenting the music one feels as it was recorded, not overpowering any part of the system. This balance extends to being part of the system whole, 'the sum of the parts is greater than the whole'.

It has not and is not going for a re-tip just yet. It was one of those 'right place, right time' moments that you look back on with a satisfied smile. Then to fall on the Carver MC transformer, that I new had been for sale for 3 or 4 weeks and no one had snapped it up . . . was the cherry on the cake.

CJSF
 

SteveR750

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CJSF said:
It may not matter, may all be 'smoke and mirrors', believe me, if it is a load of bunkum, I will say so,

a lot of it really is! Science in reverse mainly - here is an observation to fit my theory approach.

CJSF said:
Regularly one reads threads where it is obviously extolling; expensive = better, out to impress, "it cost how much, must be good then"??? . . . in hifi, one has to be honest to ones self. It will drive you mad if not . . . 'nearly' been to loony land on more than one occasions, some might say I'm there now? :cheers:

Often untrue, but then you only get what you pay for, so it's unlikely a good £250 amp is ever going to be better than a good £2k one to the majority of eople anyway. The rest are lucky, or perhaps just sensible / not misguided fools!

CJSF said:
I'm simply seeing what can be achieved at my 'budget/used' level . . . The sound I have is warm and analogue, but not syrupy, the image is totally out of the speakers, even poor recording present some sort of image. The best are performances that bring a satisfied smile to our faces, the one or two exceptional recordings are simply goosebump creating, hair standing experiences one looks forward to playing regularly, they are the reason for often not getting to bed before 2 o'clock . . . and later:wall:

CJSF

I think the measure of a good system is when the music gives you goose bumps, not just the good or hi fi recordings. A good system might give you more insight, therefore more goosebump opportunities. In reality, a home hi fi system won't come remotely close to reproducing the scale or volume of the original instruments, the human ear knows reality when it does or doesn't hear it.
 

CJSF

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I think this quote is very relevant . . .

Quote from: ordic_naubhoff's signature:

"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgement. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not." — Nelson Pass

I have enjoyed the highest quality hifi . . . my Father used to enjoy a very basic system, I used to take great pleasure in that system also when he and I were listening together. I stated my new hifi life with my late Fathers old Rotel 820 integrated amplifier, which I took great pleasure in. I now have a moderately priced system that gives me much enjoyment, satisfaction even? . . . as it has blossomed in performance by my hand.

However, I get the most pleasure when I listen in the Horlicks hour, Hazel and me, we share our simple pleasure and enjoyment of music together . . . I have no desire to 'improve the sound' . . . just enjoy what we have even more, hence 'can the image be opened any more'?

Re thinking, I'm on the edge of not bothering with cables, we had a great Holicks hour last night. I pulled out a couple of CD's, from my Fathers classical collection, totally unknown to us. The first one lasted one and a half tracks, it will end up on string in the garden as a bird scare! . . . The second was simply magic from track 1 to 11 . . . Volume very low, and yet the music was totally accessible, the performance was just for us, with an image that was fully convincing.

One wonders, is the measure of a system, its musical tangibility at all levels, from system cost to system volume to pleasure imparted?

Just my 'open thoughts' on the past 24 hours . . . CJSF
 
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CJSF said:
Quote from: ordic_naubhoff's signature:

"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgement. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not." — Nelson Pass

I've thought that one of the more bizarre quotes for many a long day in audio. I think Nelson should pass and take a chill pill. Without measurement, the music will suck on a grand scale.
 

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