7.1 ATC System needs an Amplifier/Receiver

[admin_exported]

Currently looking to a loudspeaker system comprised of ATC SCM19s (fronts), ATC C3C (centre), ATC SCM11 (rears & surrounds) & ATC C1 Sub (LFE).

The question is: what to drive them with? So I'm looking for either a receiver or pre/pro + m/c power to drive them. What are your thoughts? Thanks!

 

[Frank Harvey]

A few questions need to be answered first for a solid recommendation.

What sort of levels are you looking to drive the system to? Average or Reference Level? Are you using this system for music too, or is it purely a system for movies? What sort of size room do you have?

Your starting point is going to be something like a Yamaha DSPZ7, but if you want to maximise the ATC's qualities, you'll need to be looking at Arcam's AVR500/AVR600, Denon's AVCA1HDA, or Yamaha's DSPZ11. A good integrated AV amplifier will be sufficient for the ATC's, but it depends if you want to leave yourself open to Rotel's pre/power AV amplifiers are also available within this price point. As far as movie experiences go, the DSPZ11 is my personal favourite, but some will prefer the Arcam options for music.

A hi-fi system requires plenty of current for low sensitivity loudspeakers in order to produce the dynamic capabilities of the music cleanly. AV systems now use uncompressed and lossless audio tracks which are capable of incredible dynamics and bass levels, and an amplifier to reproduce these is one of the most important things in the system - if the amplifier's not doing it's job, the speakers have no chance. Imagine the processor/amplification as the engine of a car - it's the basis for the cars performance, and if it can't provide clean, constant power, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the car if it's underperforming.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:What sort of levels are you looking to drive the system to? Average or Reference Level?

I'd like to be able to drive it so it's generally sitting at 90db with enough power to cope with whatever the volume spikes to. Does that help?

FrankHarveyHiFi:Are you using this system for music too, or is it purely a system for movies?

It's probably 80% movies, 20% music; but that doesn't mean I don't want it to sound good for music. I do, but not at a great expense to the movies side.

FrankHarveyHiFi:What sort of size room do you hav?

We are building a new house soon and it will have a dedicated theatre room (this setup being prepared for this room). It will be around 4m wide and anywhere between 5m and 6.5m long probably. It's still early days in the design phase but that's a close enough approximation.

FrankHarveyHiFi:Your starting point is going to be something like a Yamaha DSPZ7, but if you want to maximise the ATC's qualities, you'll need to be looking at Arcam's AVR500/AVR600, Denon's AVCA1HDA, or Yamaha's DSPZ11. A good integrated AV amplifier will be sufficient for the ATC's, but it depends if you want to leave yourself open to Rotel's pre/power AV amplifiers are also available within this price point. As far as movie experiences go, the DSPZ11 is my personal favourite, but some will prefer the Arcam options for music.

A hi-fi system requires plenty of current for low sensitivity loudspeakers in order to produce the dynamic capabilities of the music cleanly. AV systems now use uncompressed and lossless audio tracks which are capable of incredible dynamics and bass levels, and an amplifier to reproduce these is one of the most important things in the system - if the amplifier's not doing it's job, the speakers have no chance. Imagine the processor/amplification as the engine of a car - it's the basis for the cars performance, and if it can't provide clean, constant power, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the car if it's underperforming.

Thanks for those thoughts. Note I am happy to go separates if it isn't too dear. What are the options in that area?

Any more info required, please ask! I really appreciate any help I can get.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Beta4Me:I'd like to be able to drive it so it's generally sitting at 90db with enough power to cope with whatever the volume spikes to. Does that help?

I think it's safe to say we'll base you on needing Reference Level!

Beta4Me:It's probably 80% movies, 20% music; but that doesn't mean I don't want it to sound good for music. I do, but not at a great expense to the movies side.

I know exactly where you're coming from. The Z11 is good enough for music.

Beta4Me:We are building a new house soon and it will have a dedicated theatre room (this setup being prepared for this room). It will be around 4m wide and anywhere between 5m and 6.5m long probably. It's still early days in the design phase but that's a close enough approximation.

That size room will be no problem for the Z11.

Beta4Me:Thanks for those thoughts. Note I am happy to go separates if it isn't too dear. What are the options in that area?

Any more info required, please ask! I really appreciate any help I can get.

I'd recommend a Lexicon pre/power, but this will push the budget up another couple of grand over the DSPZ11. Rotel can be had from around £3k, but at higher volumes you may find them a little forward sounding with the ATC's.

One thing I would recommend, is that you go for the SCM19's at the back as well to keep the soundstage more balanced.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
Beta4Me:I'd like to be able to drive it so it's generally sitting at 90db with enough power to cope with whatever the volume spikes to. Does that help?

I think it's safe to say we'll base you on needing Reference Level!

Beta4Me:It's probably 80% movies, 20% music; but that doesn't mean I don't want it to sound good for music. I do, but not at a great expense to the movies side.

I know exactly where you're coming from. The Z11 is good enough for music.

Beta4Me:We are building a new house soon and it will have a dedicated theatre room (this setup being prepared for this room). It will be around 4m wide and anywhere between 5m and 6.5m long probably. It's still early days in the design phase but that's a close enough approximation.

That size room will be no problem for the Z11.

Beta4Me:Thanks for those thoughts. Note I am happy to go separates if it isn't too dear. What are the options in that area?

Any more info required, please ask! I really appreciate any help I can get.

I'd recommend a Lexicon pre/power, but this will push the budget up another couple of grand over the DSPZ11. Rotel can be had from around £3k, but at higher volumes you may find them a little forward sounding with the ATC's.

One thing I would recommend, is that you go for the SCM19's at the back as well to keep the soundstage more balanced.

As much as I'd love to have SCM19s all around, I just can't afford it. I'm over-stretching my budget as it is, and having to compromise a tad on the video side. So I can't afford to stretch anymore on audio. With that said, I'm willing to get what I need to get to power what I will have for speakers (as detailed in first post) but that's all.

The Yamaha Z11 has popped up before as a good choice, but I'm wondering if it doesn't do the ATC's just. I mean it's an integrated vs separates and it's only US$2,395. And, yeah.

Also, I have heard some Rotel stereo stuff and 1. I don't think it's my sound type & 2. I don't think it would bode well with the ATC's. Are there other comparable and/or higher end options that aren't ludicrously (over-)priced?

Thanks

 

[Frank Harvey]

Beta4Me:As much as I'd love to have SCM19s all around, I just can't afford it. I'm over-stretching my budget as it is, and having to compromise a tad on the video side. So I can't afford to stretch anymore on audio. With that said, I'm willing to get what I need to get to power what I will have for speakers (as detailed in first post) but that's all.Fair enough. Is leaving the rear speakers for a little while and saving not a option?

The Yamaha Z11 has popped up before as a good choice, but I'm wondering if it doesn't do the ATC's just. I mean it's an integrated vs separates and it's only US$2,395. And, yeah.It will

Also, I have heard some Rotel stereo stuff and 1. I don't think it's my sound type & 2. I don't think it would bode well with the ATC's. Are there other comparable and/or higher end options that aren't ludicrously (over-)priced?

Thanks

The DSPZ11 is so good that there's not really any pre/powers available at similar cost that would be of any major benefit. Not unless you go way upmarket anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:Beta4Me:As much as I'd love to have SCM19s all around, I just can't afford it. I'm over-stretching my budget as it is, and having to compromise a tad on the video side. So I can't afford to stretch anymore on audio. With that said, I'm willing to get what I need to get to power what I will have for speakers (as detailed in first post) but that's all.Fair enough. Is leaving the rear speakers for a little while and saving not a option?

The Yamaha Z11 has popped up before as a good choice, but I'm wondering if it doesn't do the ATC's just. I mean it's an integrated vs separates and it's only US$2,395. And, yeah.It will

Also, I have heard some Rotel stereo stuff and 1. I don't think it's my sound type & 2. I don't think it would bode well with the ATC's. Are there other comparable and/or higher end options that aren't ludicrously (over-)priced?

Thanks

The DSPZ11 is so good that there's not really any pre/powers available at similar cost that would be of any major benefit. Not unless you go way upmarket anyway.

I guess I could maybe do with 5.1 with all 19s rather than 7.1 with 19s + 4 11s. Is there THAT much of a difference between the two?
Also I'm glad to know it will give the ATCs everything they need. Thanks.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Beta4Me

As i have mentioned to you before the Yamaha DSP-Z11 will be just fine with the ATC's. I have used the DSP-Z11 with the ATC's almost constantly for a year and it performs superbly with them.

If you want to significantly improve upon the DSP-Z11 than the only components that do this are the truly magnificent Chord Electronics DSP8000/8000R and SPM 2400/SPM 3005 processor/power amp combinations. However they are between £15k - £30k.

Imho choose the DSP-Z11. For me Yamaha inspires confidence.

Btw, the SCM19's are significantly better than the SCM11's. It is with the SCM19's and above that ATC really start to flex their muscles having already given an exceedingly good taste of what they are capable of with the SCM7's and SCM11's. The SCM19's feature a massively engineered mid/bass unit that uses ATC's Super Linear Magnet Technology to help reduce distortion even further compared to the already impressive SCM11 with the CLD mid/bass unit. The SLMT mid/bass drive unit itself weighs more than a complete SCM11.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

With the slightly larger cabinet volume and larger mid/bass driver, the 19 has a more authoritive sound, and little fuller too - a little like the difference between the 7 and the 11. Another difference you'll notice is when sounds are moving from speaker to speaker, whether this is voices, vehicles, or even ambience, you'll notice that in most systems the sound will change. This is because rear speakers are usually a smaller cabinet volume, use smaller mid/bass drivers, and because of this they have a different 'voicing'.

You could start with 5.1 with the 19's then add another pair at a later date when funds allow.

 

[Anonymous]

MUSICRAFT:

Hi Beta4Me

As i have mentioned to you before the Yamaha DSP-Z11 will be just fine with the ATC's. I have used the DSP-Z11 with the ATC's almost constantly for a year and it performs superbly with them.

If you want to significantly improve upon the DSP-Z11 than the only components that do this are the truly magnificent Chord Electronics DSP8000/8000R and SPM 2400/SPM 3005 processor/power amp combinations. However they are between £15k - £30k.

Imho choose the DSP-Z11. For me Yamaha inspires confidence.

I know you've mentioned it before, but I wanted some more opinions and rathered have a new thread than revive an old one (and one that wasn't overly active--this is getting more posts more quickly

).

And, OK, it does seem that the Yamaha Z11 is quite good. Are price-comparable options such as the Denon AVC-A1HDA and the Pioneer Susano performace-comparable with the Z11? (The Pioneer looks so sexy...and the touchscreen...*drools*; but audio performace is more important to me than looks, especially when it's all going to be hidden away in an equipment rack.

)

MUSICRAFT:

Btw, the SCM19's are significantly better than the SCM11's. It is with the SCM19's and above that ATC really start to flex their muscles having already given an exceedingly good taste of what they are capable of with the SCM7's and SCM11's. The SCM19's feature a massively engineered mid/bass unit that uses ATC's Super Linear Magnet Technology to help reduce distortion even further compared to the already impressive SCM11 with the CLD mid/bass unit. The SLMT mid/bass drive unit itself weighs more than a complete SCM11.

FrankHarveyHiFi:

With the slightly larger cabinet volume and larger mid/bass driver, the 19 has a more authoritive sound, and little fuller too - a little like the difference between the 7 and the 11. Another difference you'll notice is when sounds are moving from speaker to speaker, whether this is voices, vehicles, or even ambience, you'll notice that in most systems the sound will change. This is because rear speakers are usually a smaller cabinet volume, use smaller mid/bass drivers, and because of this they have a different 'voicing'.

You could start with 5.1 with the 19's then add another pair at a later date when funds allow.

Thanks for the info on the SCM19 vs SCM11. I can see how the SL driver will make quite a difference (and the extra weight of the 19, WHOA!). With the cabinet volume, I was under the impression that all of the ATC speakers sound the same, just with more bass weight and overall power as you go up the product line; is that not true? I.e. will the SCM11 and 19 sound different (the 'voicing') due to the difference in cabinet volume?

 

[Anonymous]

Also, do you know if Yamaha has international warranties for it's products. I.e. if I buy the Z11 from overseas (i.e. the USA) will the warranty still stand here (Australia) or will I need to ship it back and forth?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Beta4Me:MUSICRAFT:

Hi Beta4Me

As i have mentioned to you before the Yamaha DSP-Z11 will be just fine with the ATC's. I have used the DSP-Z11 with the ATC's almost constantly for a year and it performs superbly with them.

If you want to significantly improve upon the DSP-Z11 than the only components that do this are the truly magnificent Chord Electronics DSP8000/8000R and SPM 2400/SPM 3005 processor/power amp combinations. However they are between £15k - £30k.

Imho choose the DSP-Z11. For me Yamaha inspires confidence.

I know you've mentioned it before, but I wanted some more opinions and rathered have a new thread than revive an old one (and one that wasn't overly active--this is getting more posts more quickly

).

And, OK, it does seem that the Yamaha Z11 is quite good. Are price-comparable options such as the Denon AVC-A1HDA and the Pioneer Susano performace-comparable with the Z11? (The Pioneer looks so sexy...and the touchscreen...*drools*; but audio performace is more important to me than looks, especially when it's all going to be hidden away in an equipment rack.

)

MUSICRAFT:

Btw, the SCM19's are significantly better than the SCM11's. It is with the SCM19's and above that ATC really start to flex their muscles having already given an exceedingly good taste of what they are capable of with the SCM7's and SCM11's. The SCM19's feature a massively engineered mid/bass unit that uses ATC's Super Linear Magnet Technology to help reduce distortion even further compared to the already impressive SCM11 with the CLD mid/bass unit. The SLMT mid/bass drive unit itself weighs more than a complete SCM11.

FrankHarveyHiFi:

With the slightly larger cabinet volume and larger mid/bass driver, the 19 has a more authoritive sound, and little fuller too - a little like the difference between the 7 and the 11. Another difference you'll notice is when sounds are moving from speaker to speaker, whether this is voices, vehicles, or even ambience, you'll notice that in most systems the sound will change. This is because rear speakers are usually a smaller cabinet volume, use smaller mid/bass drivers, and because of this they have a different 'voicing'.

You could start with 5.1 with the 19's then add another pair at a later date when funds allow.

Thanks for the info on the SCM19 vs SCM11. I can see how the SL driver will make quite a difference (and the extra weight of the 19, WHOA!). With the cabinet volume, I was under the impression that all of the ATC speakers sound the same, just with more bass weight and overall power as you go up the product line; is that not true? I.e. will the SCM11 and 19 sound different (the 'voicing') due to the difference in cabinet volume?

Hi Beta4Me

I would still suggest the DSP-Z11 over the AVC-A1HDA and SC-LX90.

All the ATC Entry Series speakers have the same tonal balance so that mixing models does not cause problems.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Beta4Me:Also, do you know if Yamaha has international warranties for it's products. I.e. if I buy the Z11 from overseas (i.e. the USA) will the warranty still stand here (Australia) or will I need to ship it back and forth?

Hi Beta4Me

You had better check this with Yamaha Australia.

Have a happy new year.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Anonymous]

MUSICRAFT:
Beta4Me:Also, do you know if Yamaha has international warranties for it's products. I.e. if I buy the Z11 from overseas (i.e. the USA) will the warranty still stand here (Australia) or will I need to ship it back and forth?

Hi Beta4Me

You had better check this with Yamaha Australia.

Have a happy new year.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Or Yamaha USA?

And have a great new year too mate.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Beta4Me:MUSICRAFT:

Beta4Me:Also, do you know if Yamaha has international warranties for it's products. I.e. if I buy the Z11 from overseas (i.e. the USA) will the warranty still stand here (Australia) or will I need to ship it back and forth?

Hi Beta4Me

You had better check this with Yamaha Australia.

Have a happy new year.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Or Yamaha USA?

And have a great new year too mate.

Hi Beta4Me

Yes, or both!

Btw, thank you.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Anonymous]

 

[Anonymous]

Quick question...is it possible to assign the 11 channels of amplification in the Z11 anyway I want or am I only able to biamp the fronts etc.

For example could I set it up like this:
Normal 140W - BI-AMP: Front Left (No.1)
Normal 140W - BI-AMP: Front Right (No.1)
Normal 140W - TRI-AMP: Centre (No.1)
Normal 140W - Surround Left
Normal 140W - Surround Right
Normal 140W - Back Left
Normal 140W - Back Right
Presence 50W - BI-AMP: Front Left (No.2)
Presence 50W - BI-AMP: Front Right (No.2)
Presence 50W - TRI-AMP: Centre (No.2)
Presence 50W - TRI-AMP: Centre (No.3)

Or this:
Normal 140W - BI-AMP: Front Left (No.1)
Normal 140W - BI-AMP: Front Right (No.1)
Normal 140W - TRI-AMP: Centre (No.1)
Normal 140W - BI-AMP: Surround Left (No.1)
Normal 140W - BI-AMP: Surround Right (No.1)
Normal 140W - BI-AMP: Front Left (No.2)
Normal 140W - BI-AMP: Front Right (No.2)
Presence 50W - BI-AMP: Surround Left (No.2)
Presence 50W - BI-AMP: Surround Right (No.2)
Presence 50W - TRI-AMP: Centre (No.2)
Presence 50W - TRI-AMP: Centre (No.3)

Etc.

Is there that much flexibility or are the amp configurations restricted? It's hard to find this information in the manual.

Thank you!

 

[Frank Harvey]

You'll be a little limited in what you can assign, and the main 5.1 channels are not re-assignable. Usually you'll only be able to re-assign the centre rear speakers. Sometimes if an amplifier has dedicated zone 2 amplification, they can be re-assigned and used for the main system.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
You'll be a little limited in what you can assign, and the main 5.1 channels are not re-assignable. Usually you'll only be able to re-assign the centre rear speakers. Sometimes if an amplifier has dedicated zone 2 amplification, they can be re-assigned and used for the main system.

I wouldn't expect the main 5.1 ch's to be re-assignable nor would want to!

It's the other ones that I want to know about. How flexible is the Z11? Because I know there are some that are very flexible (I believe the Susano is).

If I run a 7.1 setup with no Presence speakers can I use them to biamp the front three (this is potentially a deal breaker for me)? If I run 5.1 can I biamp all speakers? Etc.

Thanks!

 

[Anonymous]

Beta4Me:FrankHarveyHiFi:
You'll be a little limited in what you can assign, and the main 5.1 channels are not re-assignable. Usually you'll only be able to re-assign the centre rear speakers. Sometimes if an amplifier has dedicated zone 2 amplification, they can be re-assigned and used for the main system.

I wouldn't expect the main 5.1 ch's to be re-assignable nor would want to!

It's the other ones that I want to know about. How flexible is the Z11? Because I know there are some that are very flexible (I believe the Susano is).

If I run a 7.1 setup with no Presence speakers can I use them to biamp the front three (this is potentially a deal breaker for me)? If I run 5.1 can I biamp all speakers? Etc.

Thanks!

Bump

 

[Anonymous]

Beta4Me:FrankHarveyHiFi:
You'll be a little limited in what you can assign, and the main 5.1 channels are not re-assignable. Usually you'll only be able to re-assign the centre rear speakers. Sometimes if an amplifier has dedicated zone 2 amplification, they can be re-assigned and used for the main system.

I wouldn't expect the main 5.1 ch's to be re-assignable nor would want to!

It's the other ones that I want to know about. How flexible is the Z11? Because I know there are some that are very flexible (I believe the Susano is).

If I run a 7.1 setup with no Presence speakers can I use them to biamp the front three (this is potentially a deal breaker for me)? If I run 5.1 can I biamp all speakers? Etc.

Thanks!

Sorry to bump again, but there is a really good price on this Z11 (the last in stock from the place for a while) and I really need this question answered ASAP so I can decide one way or another. Thanks!

 

[Frank Harvey]

Beta4Me:Sorry to bump again, but there is a really good price on this Z11 (the last in stock from the place for a while) and I really need this question answered ASAP so I can decide one way or another. Thanks!

Hi

If they're not having any for a while, I'd question that. A genuine Yamaha dealer can usually get stock of most things without problems, especially Z11's.

Like I said, you can't reassign the basic 5.1 system. You can't assign any amplification for extra centre duties either - but to be honest, you don't need to!

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
Beta4Me:Sorry to bump again, but there is a really good price on this Z11 (the last in stock from the place for a while) and I really need this question answered ASAP so I can decide one way or another. Thanks!

Hi

If they're not having any for a while, I'd question that. A genuine Yamaha dealer can usually get stock of most things without problems, especially Z11's.

Like I said, you can't reassign the basic 5.1 system. You can't assign any amplification for extra centre duties either - but to be honest, you don't need to!

I meant to say "little while," and the new stock will not be at such a low price.

Thanks, but what I mean is can I reassign the presence channels, i.e. to biamp the front three?

 

[Anonymous]

If it isn't possible to reassign the presence channels, then what is the benefit of the Z11 over the Z7 if you don't have presence speakers?

 

[Anonymous]

Beta4Me:If it isn't possible to reassign the presence channels, then what is the benefit of the Z11 over the Z7 if you don't have presence speakers?

Mate, you should download the manual for the Z11 from Yamaha's website. If the channels can be re-assigned you'll learn all you need to know from the manual. As you seem to be quite keen to buy it, this would seem to be a sensible move anyway.

As for your surround speakers, I don't agree with the majority retailer view. In AV, the largest amount of work is done by the centre speaker. Next the front pair. Between these three you have easily 80% of the audio covered. The sub will fill in the bottom end and in AV you can't really leave it out, even with full range speakers all round, as it takes some of the load off the main speakers and allows them to recover more quickly and so sound better with the rest of the low frequency range. (Unless you spend £10k per corner). So, in my experience, I found that by matching tonality with the mid / upper frequencies, you have great balance around the room. There is very little bass weight to surround soundtracks, and your sub can take the strain where your rears and surrounds start to roll off. Spend your money on the fronts and ensure that your surrounds are a good tonal match. If you can bi-amp the front three, that will help again. You do not need monster rears and surrounds or to bi-amp them. They just don't get enough use in movies, and none in music (2ch.) If you listen to SACDs as I do, in 5.1 then I am certain you'll be perfectly happy with the 11s as rears. Put your money into the amp, as you originally set out to do. I think you'll find you'll get more return for your money that way.

Good luck!