5.2 Dolby atmos vs 7.1 any big difference?

[bigboss]

Exactly you have said it all how often does any human do that - never.

How often does anything fly over your head and you hear the direct sound probably never as sound travels slower than light all you hear is an echo of the original sound.

You don't hear rain falling you only hear it hit whatever it hits

Think about it what is more natural speakers on the ceiling or speakers at height... no brainer really

Ceiling speakers may make sense in a commercial cinema sized room where there are huge gaps between the front and back and sizes of the room and the sides speakers are already very high.

You've taken Auro's single comment in isolation. This is exactly what Auro says:

"Vertical precision is as important as horizontal precision, but vertical localization works for our brain in a different manner than horizontal. Our hearing system is horizontally-oriented and since we don’t have an ear on top of our head, we are not able to position sounds as phantom sources between two speakers placed vertically above each other. For that reason, more vertical layers of speakers are required with the lower layer being as close as possible to ear-level. This creates a more natural vertical spread of sound energy, which creates a more natural listening experience, feedback which we always get immediately when listeners compare both formats."

This is what I said when I originally researched Atmos:

Basically, it's important for 7 speakers to be at ear level and the Atmos speakers in the ceiling. It's the difference in height that creates the Atmos experience.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/dolby-atmos-dilemma-712-or-514

 

[ellisdj]

BB that's not what auro is saying.

They say that it's more natural to have height layer on a higher horizontal plane not vertical such as ceiling speakers. Sure personal preference comes in to a point same as everything.

Either way it's more important to assess the room and system as it is imo. Then decide what will work best in the space as ceiling speakers might not be the one depending other ways can work also.

 

[bigboss]

I have ceiling speakers for Atmos, and my living room isn't an auditorium. Atmos effect works beautifully, and the effect of, say, a helicopter flying over the head is surreal.

What Auro are saying is stereo separation is difficult to discern if speakers are on top of your head. That's why it is important for the ceiling speakers to be wide apart from each other.

With my 4 ceiling speakers, I am able to locate the helicopter (whether it's on the left or right, or if has passed over my head) over my head even with eyes closed.

 

[ellisdj]

BB I know how you feel about your own system, doesnt mean you have nailed it just means you are happy.

What you describe is just 1 aspect of what the technology is supposed to do - that is not creating an atmosphere that is just an effect. One that you obviously didnt get before. As I keep saying its possible to get overhead and over the body pans without any speakers on the ceiling.

For example in Oblivion near the start where cruise is landing his ship on the american footbal field. The ship pans front to back over the body / head - then around to the right behind to infront again and lands in front of you. Its stunning mastering and sound work and sounds near as damn real with no speakers overhead - most of this effect quality is in the bass.

Or in Tron Legacy near the start where the main character is caught by the police helicopter - that literally floats above your head in terms of sonics but its a bit cardboard sounding. Then in the next chapter where he first enters grid - there is the U shaped craft flies above the arcade and that goes straight over head but sounds as if it would as something flew above a building. Stunning mastering

Also in Fury near the start a fighter plane flies low right across from front to back pan over the tank and the effect is very realistic sounding and awesome.

All these effects are made realistic more because of the bass - not overhead speakers. Its the tangible feeling of it that you associate with the real thing. Without that it will never sound authentic to me personally.

However I am not saying things cant be improved further still with atmos etc because I know they are, but my point was to consider the overall picture before just thinking I need ceiling speakers to improve my system as there are other options too if you get out there and look.

Rich at Simply Cinema can demo this to anyone and they can see what I am on about.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Where's your nearest airport?

Go to it and stand at the end of the runway.

Come back and tell me if you don't hear the planes flying overhead.

Well, you certainly WON'T be hearing any planes flying overhead, because airport security would have long since arrested any prankster standing at the end of any runway, and you'll be in custody! And be held in custoday for probably a long enough time to make you forget completely about Dolby Atmos.

Pedant!

There are many many airports around the UK where you can park up near the end of the runway and watch planes flying overhead and the plod won't hassle you unless you put a long tube-shaped something or other over your shoulder and point it at the planes! Or you could live in Hayes / Harlington in West London.

Where I'm sitting right now, we're on the flight paths for the East-West runways at Houston Intercontinental (IAH) and I can certainly hear the planes flying overhead. In the past I used to work in an 11-storey building about two miles from the ends of the same airport's North-South runways. The smoking "room" was the 11th floor balcony. We couldn't actually hear the afternoon 747s heading for Europe passing overhead, mind you. A fully laden 747 only climbs at about 100 feet a mile (or so I was told by a British Airways 747 pilot), so they were more or less at eye level!

 

[nugget2014]

I have since been thinking on how to improve my setup, even if I wasn't to get Dolby atmos (YET!)

would a new receiver help? I've seen countless settings on here I have fiddled with over the year or so to see if it changes the sound. Maybe the denon Amos receiver could change this. If I don't need the extra power is there no reason to get the 2200w over the 1200w? I expect I always will have similar speakers relatively low end around £300-500 range that don't need a ton of power to drive them. This means I would be limited to 7.1 or 5.2.1. Are 2 height speakers enough to have a noticeable difference on atmos material? I'm thinking of upgrading my receiver sooner rather than later..

 

[bigboss]

Although 2 Atmos speakers can do the job, having 4 speakers for Atmos do make a significant difference.

Don't be too hung up on power rating. A 1000-watt is twice as loud as a 100-watt one. So a 120-watt amp is only mildly more powerful than a 100-watt one.

It's the features you're looking for. Get an AVR which will support your future needs as well.

 

[nugget2014]

Although 2 Atmos speakers can do the job, having 4 speakers for Atmos do make a significant difference.

Don't be too hung up on power rating. A 1000-watt is twice as loud as a 100-watt one. So a 120-watt amp is only mildly more powerful than a 100-watt one.

It's the features you're looking for. Get an AVR which will support your future needs as well.

unfortunately, a 5.4.1 atmos receiver is too costly for at the moment (considering the speakers also) the denon x1200w has all the features i need. and has dts:x and atmos if i decide to go atmos down the road. if dts:x is as good as it sounds how it fully utlises every speaker then that will do me for now, thanks for all the advice!

 

[bigboss]

Marantz SR7009 did drop to £800 towards the end of its cycle.

Oh, and the nomenclature is 5.1.4, not 5.4.1. The Atmos speakers are denoted after the subwoofer.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I have since been thinking on how to improve my setup, even if I wasn't to get Dolby atmos (YET!)

would a new receiver help? I've seen countless settings on here I have fiddled with over the year or so to see if it changes the sound. Maybe the denon Amos receiver could change this. If I don't need the extra power is there no reason to get the 2200w over the 1200w? I expect I always will have similar speakers relatively low end around £300-500 range that don't need a ton of power to drive them. This means I would be limited to 7.1 or 5.2.1. Are 2 height speakers enough to have a noticeable difference on atmos material? I'm thinking of upgrading my receiver sooner rather than later..

First of all, don't beieve the headline power output figure. That's derived by taking the peak power output per channel and mulitplying that number by the number of channels. If you want a real indication of power output, look at the two channels driven, RMS figure, or take the power consumption and divide that number by two. I do agree, however, that most of us don't need the power output of a Motorhead PA system in our media rooms.

As to brand, your choice. Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc. all make pretty decent receivers and it's as much about the other features as anthing else. I'd look for full HDCP2.2 complaince, full 4K / 60 Hz pass-through, whatever the latest colour spec is (can't remember the name right now), etc. etc. on ALL inputs / outputs, not just a select few, as well as Atmos and DTS:X.

Depending on your room size, 2 overhead speakers (or, but not as good, 2 upward firing Atmos enabled speakers) will do just fine. If you've got a long room or loads of cash or just want to do it anyway, 4 is better. To get 4 overhead speakers you'll need at least a nine, possibly eleven channel receiver, and most eleven channel receivers require an external power amp to drive the last two channels. Remember Atmos speak is X.Y.Z where X is the number of low heights, Y is the number of subwoofers, and Z is the number of overheads. Add X and Z to get the number of channels you need.

 

[nugget2014]

I have since been thinking on how to improve my setup, even if I wasn't to get Dolby atmos (YET!)

would a new receiver help? I've seen countless settings on here I have fiddled with over the year or so to see if it changes the sound. Maybe the denon Amos receiver could change this. If I don't need the extra power is there no reason to get the 2200w over the 1200w? I expect I always will have similar speakers relatively low end around £300-500 range that don't need a ton of power to drive them. This means I would be limited to 7.1 or 5.2.1. Are 2 height speakers enough to have a noticeable difference on atmos material? I'm thinking of upgrading my receiver sooner rather than later..

First of all, don't beieve the headline power output figure. That's derived by taking the peak power output per channel and mulitplying that number by the number of channels. If you want a real indication of power output, look at the two channels driven, RMS figure, or take the power consumption and divide that number by two. I do agree, however, that most of us don't need the power output of a Motorhead PA system in our media rooms.

As to brand, your choice. Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc. all make pretty decent receivers and it's as much about the other features as anthing else. I'd look for full HDCP2.2 complaince, full 4K / 60 Hz pass-through, whatever the latest colour spec is (can't remember the name right now), etc. etc. on ALL inputs / outputs, not just a select few, as well as Atmos and DTS:X.

Depending on your room size, 2 overhead speakers (or, but not as good, 2 upward firing Atmos enabled speakers) will do just fine. If you've got a long room or loads of cash or just want to do it anyway, 4 is better. To get 4 overhead speakers you'll need at least a nine, possibly eleven channel receiver, and most eleven channel receivers require an external power amp to drive the last two channels. Remember Atmos speak is X.Y.Z where X is the number of low heights, Y is the number of subwoofers, and Z is the number of overheads. Add X and Z to get the number of channels you need.

good info!

 

[nugget2014]

so i had a demo of the denon avrx-1200w receiver today and was i disappointed! tried mission impossible rogue nation in atmos, and a demo disc he had which shown transformers in atmos as well as some clips, i never heard the ceiling speakers once in ANY of the clips! either it was setup wrong or i am really bad at picking out surround effects (even though i hear them at the cinema)

so i am now even more unsure on what to do about atmos in the future. i might try and see as many films in atmos in the near future at showcase to see if i can pick out the effects from above..if not it's pointless me to buy it..what's going wrong

 

[bigboss]

Where did you demo? Ellisdj has suggested a place for you to demo Atmos properly. Also, demo a different AV receiver, and also different combinations (especially 4 overhead speakers). You'll then know if the problem was with the implementation or the AVR.

As I have said before, if you want Atmos, you need to do it properly, not half baked. Otherwise all that money is wasted.

 

[nugget2014]

Where did you demo? Ellisdj has suggested a place for you to demo Atmos properly. Also, demo a different AV receiver, and also different combinations (especially 4 overhead speakers). You'll then know if the problem was with the implementation or the AVR.

As I have said before, if you want Atmos, you need to do it properly, not half baked. Otherwise all that money is wasted.

superfi nottingham.

 

[nugget2014]

BB I know how you feel about your own system, doesnt mean you have nailed it just means you are happy.

What you describe is just 1 aspect of what the technology is supposed to do - that is not creating an atmosphere that is just an effect. One that you obviously didnt get before. As I keep saying its possible to get overhead and over the body pans without any speakers on the ceiling.

For example in Oblivion near the start where cruise is landing his ship on the american footbal field. The ship pans front to back over the body / head - then around to the right behind to infront again and lands in front of you. Its stunning mastering and sound work and sounds near as damn real with no speakers overhead - most of this effect quality is in the bass.

Or in Tron Legacy near the start where the main character is caught by the police helicopter - that literally floats above your head in terms of sonics but its a bit cardboard sounding. Then in the next chapter where he first enters grid - there is the U shaped craft flies above the arcade and that goes straight over head but sounds as if it would as something flew above a building. Stunning mastering

Also in Fury near the start a fighter plane flies low right across from front to back pan over the tank and the effect is very realistic sounding and awesome.

All these effects are made realistic more because of the bass - not overhead speakers. Its the tangible feeling of it that you associate with the real thing. Without that it will never sound authentic to me personally.

However I am not saying things cant be improved further still with atmos etc because I know they are, but my point was to consider the overall picture before just thinking I need ceiling speakers to improve my system as there are other options too if you get out there and look.

Rich at Simply Cinema can demo this to anyone and they can see what I am on about.

do you have a link to a website or something? i cant find anything via google. also where is it located?

 

[macdiddy]

http://www.simplycinema.org/#home-section

*unknw*

 

[Series1boy]

I would personally concentrate on improving your 5.1 system. I agree with BB you need to do it properly and have 4 down firing speakers. My x4100 was pants with 2 upfiring speakers and I've ended up disconnecting them.

im going to upgrade my sub and get some focal aria speakers up front and may be some front wides...

 

[nugget2014]

I would personally concentrate on improving your 5.1 system. I agree with BB you need to do it properly and have 4 down firing speakers. My x4100 was pants with 2 upfiring speakers and I've ended up disconnecting them.

im going to upgrade my sub and get some focal aria speakers up front and may be some front wides...

having a 5.4.1 system is not going to happen for a very long time due to the cost involved for what i am getting, right now i can't even justify a 5.2.1 system without hearing what it CAN be like first.

first things first i will get my new receiver, see if i can somehow improve my 7.1 setup with some tweaking and down the road think about 5.2.1 atmos as a "stop-gap" until 9.1 receivers are more affordable. if somehow surround sound just doesnt work for me for various reasons i will have to resort to improving the rest of my core system, such as fronts/centre/sub. although i wish i could have an all round good system.

in my current flat i dont have the room for ceiling speakers right above me due to a fan. and i might be moving into a new place in a year or two, so having atmos installed seems silly as i could move any time.

is there anything i could be doing wrong in my positioning/calibration/settings to not get the full effect? i'll see how it goes when i get my new receiver very shortly i hope.

 

[Series1boy]

The Denon has a really good calibration setup audessy. After setup, I set my speakers to small so that I got the best out of the floor standers and sub. I also had to turn up the dialogue for the centre and I left the crossovers as set by the calibration and that's it.

I'm not sure about the Sony receivers, never heard them but they have had great reviews... Your speakers are fine, you just need to tweak your system and may be the 1200 will suit them better....

Ive had various pioneer receivers(3)and denon(4 of these) and I prefer the denon because the pioneers can sound bright with the wrong speakers as they did with my focals.

 

[bigboss]

I would personally concentrate on improving your 5.1 system. I agree with BB you need to do it properly and have 4 down firing speakers. My x4100 was pants with 2 upfiring speakers and I've ended up disconnecting them.

im going to upgrade my sub and get some focal aria speakers up front and may be some front wides...

having a 5.4.1 system is not going to happen for a very long time due to the cost involved for what i am getting, right now i can't even justify a 5.2.1 system without hearing what it CAN be like first.?

first things first i will get my new receiver, see if i can somehow improve my 7.1 setup with some tweaking and down the road think about 5.2.1 atmos as a "stop-gap" until 9.1 receivers are more affordable. if somehow surround sound just doesnt work for me for various reasons i will have to resort to improving the rest of my core system, such as fronts/centre/sub. although i wish i could have an all round good system.

in my current flat i dont have the room for ceiling speakers right above me due to a fan. and i might be moving into a new place in a year or two, so having atmos installed seems silly as i could move any time.

is there anything i could be doing wrong in my positioning/calibration/settings to not get the full effect? i'll see how it goes when i get my new receiver very shortly i hope.

The number denoting for Atmos speakers comes after the subwoofer. So it's 5.1.4, not 5.4.1.

 

[nugget2014]

I would personally concentrate on improving your 5.1 system. I agree with BB you need to do it properly and have 4 down firing speakers. My x4100 was pants with 2 upfiring speakers and I've ended up disconnecting them.

im going to upgrade my sub and get some focal aria speakers up front and may be some front wides...

having a 5.4.1 system is not going to happen for a very long time due to the cost involved for what i am getting, right now i can't even justify a 5.2.1 system without hearing what it CAN be like first.

first things first i will get my new receiver, see if i can somehow improve my 7.1 setup with some tweaking and down the road think about 5.2.1 atmos as a "stop-gap" until 9.1 receivers are more affordable. if somehow surround sound just doesnt work for me for various reasons i will have to resort to improving the rest of my core system, such as fronts/centre/sub. although i wish i could have an all round good system.

in my current flat i dont have the room for ceiling speakers right above me due to a fan. and i might be moving into a new place in a year or two, so having atmos installed seems silly as i could move any time.

is there anything i could be doing wrong in my positioning/calibration/settings to not get the full effect? i'll see how it goes when i get my new receiver very shortly i hope.

The number denoting for Atmos speakers comes after the subwoofer. So it's 5.1.4, not 5.4.1.

yes i remember you telling me before i just get it mixed up/forget.

 

[ellisdj]

Sorry guys only just seen this.

I know a few good places to test atmos. Nugget I know one good dealer in Nottingham but can't think of the name but will get it tomorrow.

In the South East you have Simply Cinema which is very much a normal domestic system demo rather than a dedicated room setup such as a couple of others I can suggest. He has access to several demo facilities but his own home demo system is very much installed in a restricted domestic space

His website has not gone live yet but I will get Rich's email.

A couple of other places are Kalibrate UK and Epic Home Cinema.

Between these you have various speaker options MK Sound, XTZ, Power Sound Audio

Then subs MK XTZ and Power Sound Audio.

Various AV receivers to suit and other things like video calibration etc.

Rich at Simply can also provide Steinway Lyngdorf and Lyngdorf systems as well.

You won't get a bad demo from any of these

 

[ellisdj]

The Nottingham based dealer that I know is Castle Sound and Vision

Speak to the owner Geoff he is a diamond guy.
I know he stocks high end stuff and Linn etc not sure if he sells the more run of the mill kit but worth a phone call from you to ask
Say Terry Ellis recommended him to you and says hello.

 

[nugget2014]

The Nottingham based dealer that I know is Castle Sound and Vision

Speak to the owner Geoff he is a diamond guy. I know he stocks high end stuff and Linn etc not sure if he sells the more run of the mill kit but worth a phone call from you to ask Say Terry Ellis recommended him to you and says hello.

yeah you mentioned that name before. i've seen it many times, so he has atmos i can demo? either way i shall contact him. and thanks for all the equipment recommendations

 

[ellisdj]

The other 3 Def do not sure about Geoff. Not had a demo there myself but as it's local to you a call won't hurt.

It's nice to have a good dealer local but all the other 3 will look after you from where they are.

If you demo MK and XTZ speakers you will see how they are compared to your dali. If your more of a movie only guy they are very good