$4,520 Kimber RCA Cable compared with Amazon Basics

[Entrigo]

Feel free to flag up the post and moderation will attend to it. There's a 'report' function at the bottom left of every post.

Thank you. I think you intervened already to keep us in line (I am not very tolerant of personal attacks, so responded in kind 😬🤣).

 

[davidf]

Sums up everything wrong with hobbyists/audiophiles, it's not a bloody religion, or at least shouldn't be

People were happy, until the Roman Emperor rucked up, decided he was the dog's bollox, and amassed a following that hangs on his thumbs up/thumbs down way of doing things. Any product that gets a thumbs down is immediately set upon, slagged off, ripped apart, and ridiculed by his sheep who have never actually heard the product themselves. Most of the time, even the Emperor doesn't listen to it. He creates a witch hunt for anything he classes as not perfect.

So yeah, let's do the religion thing.

He's no different to an audio enthusiast tinkering away in his shed, it's just that he's presented himself in a way he wants others to see him. We've had plenty of those in this industry over the years, offering free Kool-aid to those who will listen and follow the doctrine. Most come and go.

 

[abacus]

To put things in perspective, until verifiable evidence is provided that cables (Assuming they are the correct rating for the job in hand) make a difference to the sound, then all claims they do, are purely opinion, which is fine, as everyone is entitled to an opinion. (Just don't post opinion as fact)
In the end it comes down to the question, do you believe they make a difference? if so then go ahead and buy an expensive cable as its your choice and your choice alone.

Bill

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

Yes, it´s really bad when consumers are made aware there are a lot of bollocks being sold to you for thousands that ar no better(sometimes they plain worse!!) then products that are good or quite good that cost a few hundred.
It´s bad that we, consumers, have been taken for fools being fed BS stories than can rival with any phantasy book.
Yeah, it´s bad.
But funny enough, I don´t think it´s bad at all.

 

[Jasonovich]

To be honest, this argument goes both ways. Although I have been into hifi for about twenty years or so, I am fairly new to the pursuit of the ultimate sound quality. As such, a few months ago was about to fall into the cable trap. So I came on this same forum to ask for opinions. Albeit my post was neutral and, as above, one aimed at getting advice, and so I wasn't at all defending the cable snake oil trade, some responses were really not that balanced or friendly. One member in particular not at all subtly implied I was an idiot for even thinking about it, another member or two sided and applauded this comment... (Which was also very disappointing, as I normally find people in this forum very friendly)

I think one needs to be pragmatic. I accept, paying for cables that costs more than your entire system is beyond daft, it just stupid.

It also contravenes my hifi principles, getting the best sound quality for the least amount of money but I would say HiFi is far more complicated than measurements and graphs.

Multi threaded cables, solid core cables or the combination of both, Teflon sheaths, PVC sheaths, quad wiring etc all exhibit different tonality.
What is the purpose of cables?

Quite simply, to deliver the signal from A to B without degradation. Some cables are more effective in reducing radio interference which can potentially degrade the sound.

At the end of day, it's your prerogative if you have a different view of cables to mine, it's cool. Really! 😎

 

[davidf]

Yes, it´s really bad when consumers are made aware there are a lot of bollocks being sold to you for thousands that ar no better(sometimes they plain worse!!) then products that are good or quite good that cost a few hundred.
It´s bad that we, consumers, have been taken for fools being fed BS stories than can rival with any phantasy book.
Yeah, it´s bad.
But funny enough, I don´t think it´s bad at all.

So do you purchase off your own back, or do you buy what you're told to buy? There's good and not so good in any industry, with any product type you buy, but at the end of the day, you have the ability to view and experience before parting with your money. If you buy a **** car, that's your fault.

All this 'don't buy this product if the SINAD is above this number', 'this is awful', 'this is poor' etc etc is just conditioning viewers to ignore products which very likely sound extremely good, and could be the perfect product for them. I'll make recommendations to people (if they ask me to), but it's not based on distortion numbers, it's based on their system suitability, personal preferences, and in some cases, room suitability. The sheep are hanging on his every word, waiting for a product or brand to attack, so they can puff up their chests and give their keyboard a good banging.

 

[abacus]

So do you purchase off your own back, or do you buy what you're told to buy? There's good and not so good in any industry, with any product type you buy, but at the end of the day, you have the ability to view and experience before parting with your money. If you buy a **** car, that's your fault.

All this 'don't buy this product if the SINAD is above this number', 'this is awful', 'this is poor' etc etc is just conditioning viewers to ignore products which very likely sound extremely good, and could be the perfect product for them. I'll make recommendations to people (if they ask me to), but it's not based on distortion numbers, it's based on their system suitability, personal preferences, and in some cases, room suitability. The sheep are hanging on his every word, waiting for a product or brand to attack, so they can puff up their chests and give their keyboard a good banging.

When recommending cables do you let them listen to them using a double blind test, or do you just tell them what the differences will be and then let them hear them, if the later then you are just pushing your opinions on them and they will hear exactly what you say, which means you are conditioning them to purchase the cable that you want, not whats best for them.

Bill

 

[Entrigo]

I think one needs to be pragmatic. I accept, paying for cables that costs more than your entire system is beyond daft, it just stupid.

It also contravenes my hifi principles, getting the best sound quality for the least amount of money but I would say HiFi is far more complicated than measurements and graphs.

Multi threaded cables, solid core cables or the combination of both, Teflon sheaths, PVC sheaths, quad wiring etc all exhibit different tonality.
What is the purpose of cables?

Quite simply, to deliver the signal from A to B without degradation. Some cables are more effective in reducing radio interference which can potentially degrade the sound.

At the end of day, it's your prerogative if you have a different view of cables to mine, it's cool. Really! 😎

And that is exactly why I had started thinking about cables. Luddite as I am, I thought different materials might be better conducers, and whatnot (already reached the end of my tech expertise lol).

Then asked my brother (former electrician and current sound guy) and he pointed me to the coat hanger test... Then I started reading about it and the wool fell off my eyes.

Although in the back of my mind, a little voice still goes "but certainly different materials/constructions etc would have an impact on how sound is transmitted etc etc"

But it is getting more and more feeble, thankfully (last thing I need to pour money down the drain on is cables 🤣 )

 

[Gray]

the coat hanger test...

Although in the back of my mind, a little voice still goes "but certainly different materials/constructions etc would have an impact on how sound is transmitted etc etc"

You can pay a lot more, but these are more than adequate:
https://share.google/9C5IagEJfbrCtScRs

 

[davidf]

When recommending cables do you let them listen to them using a double blind test, or do you just tell them what the differences will be and then let them hear them, if the later then you are just pushing your opinions on them and they will hear exactly what you say, which means you are conditioning them to purchase the cable that you want, not whats best for them.

Bill

I don't like telling people the differences they will hear. One, because I'd be telling them the differences I hear, and two, I don't know what differences they'll hear. I can't influence their decision, otherwise I'm just a salesman. Which I am not.

 

[davidf]

And that is exactly why I had started thinking about cables. Luddite as I am, I thought different materials might be better conducers, and whatnot (already reached the end of my tech expertise lol).

Then asked my brother (former electrician and current sound guy) and he pointed me to the coat hanger test... Then I started reading about it and the wool fell off my eyes.

Although in the back of my mind, a little voice still goes "but certainly different materials/constructions etc would have an impact on how sound is transmitted etc etc"

But it is getting more and more feeble, thankfully (last thing I need to pour money down the drain on is cables 🤣 )

So, you asked an electrician - someone who only works within certain parameters (it works or it doesn't/is it safe?) - whether certain materials would make difference? Thats the last person you want to ask. Electricians just make stuff work. They don't care what the end result is as long as it works. This is a similar argument to USB cables and HDMI cables - as long as they adhere to industry guidelines, they won't make a difference. Most cables, whatever their usage, are designed to a point where they'll work. That's it. A minimum requirement. If you believe there cannot be difference, there won't be. Coat hangers work. Any metal works. Is it the best?

 

[Entrigo]

You can pay a lot more, but these are more than adequate:
https://share.google/9C5IagEJfbrCtScRs

Hahah well might need quite a few as I have now moved my speakers about 2.5m from my amp...

 

[Entrigo]

So, you asked an electrician - someone who only works within certain parameters (it works or it doesn't/is it safe?) - whether certain materials would make difference? Thats the last person you want to ask. Electricians just make stuff work. They don't care what the end result is as long as it works. This is a similar argument to USB cables and HDMI cables - as long as they adhere to industry guidelines, they won't make a difference. Most cables, whatever their usage, are designed to a point where they'll work. That's it. A minimum requirement. If you believe there cannot be difference, there won't be. Coat hangers work. Any metal works. Is it the best?

Then asked my brother (former electrician and current sound guy) (...)

Then I started reading about it (..,)

Hopefully this helps but happy to rephrase, paraphrase, draw a picture...

 

[Gray]

I don't like telling people the differences they will hear. One, because I'd be telling them the differences I hear, and two, I don't know what differences they'll hear. I can't influence their decision, otherwise I'm just a salesman.

It's good that you don't tell them what to listen for (I don't like typical salesmen - any more than they like me).

But I'd be interested to know how often (if ever) they report hearing what you hear - as a difference between cables.

You see, even allowing for the fact people hear differently, I would very much expect them to hear the same tonal differences between speakers for example......but cables 🤔???
I'd be absolutely amazed if they described (unprompted) the same as you say that you hear.

 

[Gray]

Coat hangers work. Any metal works. Is it the best?

The point about the coat hangers test was that a blind panel of listeners couldn't identify whether they were listening to the 'best' cable or coat hangers.

(Those listeners obviously had untrained ears - they didn't know what they were listening for 😉).

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

So do you purchase off your own back, or do you buy what you're told to buy? There's good and not so good in any industry, with any product type you buy, but at the end of the day, you have the ability to view and experience before parting with your money. If you buy a **** car, that's your fault.

All this 'don't buy this product if the SINAD is above this number', 'this is awful', 'this is poor' etc etc is just conditioning viewers to ignore products which very likely sound extremely good, and could be the perfect product for them. I'll make recommendations to people (if they ask me to), but it's not based on distortion numbers, it's based on their system suitability, personal preferences, and in some cases, room suitability. The sheep are hanging on his every word, waiting for a product or brand to attack, so they can puff up their chests and give their keyboard a good banging.

I´ve been in IT & Facilities Procurement for over 25 years.
If there´s something I can recognise immeditaly is BS that vendors try to sell me.
And I´ve used that wisdom when purchasing stuff I need for my day to day life and entertainment. Hi-Fi equipment being in the list.

What ASR teach us and made clear for everybody to see/read, is that some Hi-Fi brands are full of BS and give buyers some tools to help identify who those are.

 

[abacus]

I don't like telling people the differences they will hear. One, because I'd be telling them the differences I hear, and two, I don't know what differences they'll hear. I can't influence their decision, otherwise I'm just a salesman. Which I am not.

Excellent

Bill

 

[abacus]

So, you asked an electrician - someone who only works within certain parameters (it works or it doesn't/is it safe?) - whether certain materials would make difference? Thats the last person you want to ask. Electricians just make stuff work. They don't care what the end result is as long as it works. This is a similar argument to USB cables and HDMI cables - as long as they adhere to industry guidelines, they won't make a difference. Most cables, whatever their usage, are designed to a point where they'll work. That's it. A minimum requirement. If you believe there cannot be difference, there won't be. Coat hangers work. Any metal works. Is it the best?

I started off in the electrical trade and got all the exams, and I can assure you conductor materials and insulation was examined extensible. (While basic electrics works or it doesn't, when it comes to industrial and technology you have to be able to work out what cable is best for the job in hand, compared to this, audio is as basic as it comes)

Bill

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I'm just going to flag up that this is a cable thread showing tolerance and allowing each other to communicate their thoughts. What's the world coming to, eh?

(Well done, peeps.)

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

I started off in the electrical trade and got all the exams, and I can assure you conductor materials and insulation was examined extensible. (While basic electrics works or it doesn't, when it comes to industrial and technology you have to be able to work out what cable is best for the job in hand, compared to this, audio is as basic as it comes)

Bill

Exactly.
But many people in the industry talk about audio tech as if it´s something magical and complicated that only they have mastered.
And it gets worse when some in the industry, using the BS arguments, produce and market their products, that don´t even follow and apply the basic engineering, as being superior while charging huge amounts of money, that is consumer deception and deceit.

 

[davidf]

It's good that you don't tell them what to listen for (I don't like typical salesmen - any more than they like me).

But I'd be interested to know how often (if ever) they report hearing what you hear - as a difference between cables.

You see, even allowing for the fact people hear differently, I would very much expect them to hear the same tonal differences between speakers for example......but cables 🤔???
I'd be absolutely amazed if they described (unprompted) the same as you say that you hear.

It's only good to tell someone what to listen for if it's some detail that blatantly shows off the difference.
I generally don't demonstrate cables. I rarely compare them for myself nowadays. I'll let people borrow them to try out in their own system, in their own home, at their own pace. If they're going to show what they can do, they'll do so in that scenario - quick ABs in a system and room you don't know, in a sales environment, you're likely to hear nothing.

 

[davidf]

The point about the coat hangers test was that a blind panel of listeners couldn't identify whether they were listening to the 'best' cable or coat hangers.

(Those listeners obviously had untrained ears - they didn't know what they were listening for 😉).

I tend not to trust Headphonesty clickbait.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

One member in particular not at all subtly implied I was an idiot for even thinking about it, another member or two sided and applauded this comment... (Which was also very disappointing, as I normally find people in this forum very friendly)

There is a lot of evidence against it. Best to look into that.