3 drives vs. 2 drives speakers

[sodracir]

Hi all.
First of all, forgive me if I'm too uninformed, I'm very far to be an expert.

My question is about 3 drives vs. 2 drives speakers. When I was young, I remember most "high-end mass market" systems had 3 drives speakers. Actually, my Sony system had them. After a lot of years of having just my basic system I've decided to go a step up and update the system. I've found that current bookshelf speakers have 2 drives, being 3 drives reserved to floorstanders. What is the reason for that? Is it just a money thing or are there advantages or disadvantages from a musical standpoint?

Thanks in advance for your wise answers.

 

[The_Lhc]

Space, it's difficult to fit 3 drivers in a standmount speaker. On the other side, the more drivers you have the harder it is to integrate them so that the sound appears to be coming from one place, which is why companies like KEF use ideas like Uni-Q where the tweeter is in the middle of the woofer.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Generally, 3 way is better than two way, but 3 way needs to be done properly, which adds cost. Usually, it's down to how well each are implemented.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Generally, 3 way is better than two way, but 3 way needs to be done properly, which adds cost. Usually, it's down to how well each are implemented.

if you knew anything about passive crossover networks designing you wouldn't be saying such rubbish. the only good thing about 3 way is that you can add dedicated bass driver which will give you a few more Hz in the bottom registers. but many today's 2-ways can do very well without dedicated bass driver.

oh, and it's not down to how well each is implemented. 2-way is better by definition.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Generally, 3 way is better than two way, but 3 way needs to be done properly, which adds cost. Usually, it's down to how well each are implemented.

if you knew anything about passive crossover networks designing you wouldn't be saying such rubbish. the only good thing about 3 way is that you can add dedicated bass driver which will give you a few more Hz in the bottom registers. but many today's 2-ways can do very well without dedicated bass driver.

oh, and it's not down to how well each is implemented. 2-way is better by definition.

I have to disagree there.

I am a big fan of 3 way speakers. I do not search them out intentionally and audition them along side 2 way speakers but have always gravitated towards them. A good 3 way speaker has some advantages (but admittedly some disadvantages as noted by the OP earlier).

As a lover of classical music, 3 way speakers tend to have an advantage in complex pieces of music as each driver has a little less to do. It's not easy for a driver to violently throw itself back and forward when reproducing bass notes, whilst also producing a delicate midrange for example.

This is something that's readily observed by many who own 5.1 systems built with 2 way speakers. By raising the crossover the bass is moved away from the mid / bass driver, allowing for more resolution and control at higher volumes. Interestingly this is less noticable with 3 way speakers in AV systems as the bass is already directed away from the mid driver (though the amp has less load, but that's another topic)

I’m not saying that 3 way speakers are always better than 2 way, as it is case by case, but there are definitely some advantages to a 3 way design (if implemented properly)

 

[Andrew Everard]

if you knew anything about passive crossover networks designing you wouldn't be saying such rubbish.

Yet again, a bit less of the attitude please, oldric

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I have to disagree there.

(...)
As a lover of classical music, 3 way speakers tend to have an advantage in complex pieces of music as each driver has a little less to do. It's not easy for a driver to violently throw itself back and forward when reproducing bass notes, whilst also producing a delicate midrange for example.

This is something that's readily observed by many who own 5.1 systems built with 2 way speakers. By raising the crossover the bass is moved away from the mid / bass driver, allowing for more resolution and control at higher volumes. Interestingly this is less noticable with 3 way speakers in AV systems as the bass is already directed away from the mid driver (though the amp has less load, but that's another topic)

yeah. I'd agree with all you wrote. dedicated bass driver is a nice touch when reproducing bass heavy/demanding music as it takes some load off mid-bass drive. however, that's the only advantage of 3-way system! it's better to get oneself a 2-way with exemplary bass performance or integrate powered subwoofer for lowest lows (x-over setting around 60Hz). why? phase shift anomalies arising from overlaping between different drivers. what it means; electrical phase determines direction of the soundwave. so if you have a couple of drivers replaying the same frequency around crossover point they will most likely not coincide timewise in the listening space (unless the speaker is really well ingeneered and that means a lot of £££££). the effect is blurred image. the problem with 3-ways is that bass-mid x-over sits around 300-400 Hz point and there's a lot of sonic information stored around this frequency. so if you have inferior 3-way speakers (and all budget ons would be) you're making your listening experience quite impaired.

that's why I opt for 2-way + sub (if really needed) because you can cross such a system much lover than 3-way speakers are usually xrossed. BTW reproducing frequencies dwn to 100Hz for a 6.5" driver is no sweat.

of course, the best situation is where you have only one driver but so far there's no trully full range 1-way speakers. (there are some but they use horns to reproduce low freq. I don't trust hornsreproduce uncoloured sound).

intresting fact is that the new series of Wilson-Brenesch speakers use no xover on mid-bass and only high pass filter on tweeter.

 

[Sliced Bread]

I hear what you're saying and as with most things in hifi it comes down to what compromise you like to take. Also a single driver of that caliber will likely be just as expensive as good 3 (or more) way speaker.

For example: I've always found 3 way speakers integrate better than sub and bookshelf for music. But I havn't tried all speaker / sub combos.

For me its like comparing plasma and lcd screens...take each one on its own merit.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I hear what you're saying and as with most things in hifi it comes down to what compromise you like to take.

yeah. I'll always be looking for ultimate transparency and therefore am willing to sacrifice outright bass slam.

Also a single driver of that caliber will likely be just as expensive as good 3 (or more) way speaker.

not necessarily. there's one good example which I die to try out but those speakers are too niche to come across just like that. they're Manger Zerobox 109 (standmount version). they look like an average 2-way standmounter but manufacturer says the're 1.5-way, which IMHO describes their talents better. there's this star driver which is responsible for everything from 35k HZ down to 140 Hz where the bass driver takes over. due to such a low xover frequency (at this level sounds start to become undirectional) they can be called quasi point source. never heard single driver full range speakers but people always claim they produce exceptionally clear, transparent sound. people say the same things about those Mangers. that they create amazingly focused and realistic soundstage. I wish I could listen to those speakers on day... ray:

BTW they're less than GBP 4000 which in terms of high-end product isn't too excessive.

 

[lindsayt]

yeah. I'd agree with all you wrote. dedicated bass driver is a nice touch when reproducing bass heavy/demanding music as it takes some load off mid-bass drive. however, that's the only advantage of 3-way system! it's better to get oneself a 2-way with exemplary bass performance or integrate powered subwoofer for lowest lows (x-over setting around 60Hz). why? phase shift anomalies arising from overlaping between different drivers...

Can you, or anyone else please name some 2 way speakers with exemplary bass?

I can think of a couple with OK bass: big vintage Tannoys, Altec Model 19's. I can't think of any with exemplary bass.

Using sub-woofers with 2 way speakers just turns them into a 3 way system in separate boxes with a rather low crossover between the mid-bass unit and the subwoofer bass unit.

Another advantage of 3 way speakers is that large bass cones are more efficient than small ones which helps a lot in making the speaker more efficient. Higher efficiency speakers tend to sound more dynamic. They're giving the amplifiers an easier time.

 

[MajorFubar]

with most things in hifi it comes down to what compromise you like to take.

That sums it up perfectly imo. From the viewpoint of reproducing a coherent stereo image with no concerns about undo emphasis, 'drop-out' or phase-difference at the cross-over points, the fewer drivers the better. But a single one-coned driver that can accurately reproduce 20-20 sound has yet to be invented. So it's all about which compromise least offends thine ears, which is subjective again, and we really shouldn't be rubbishing each other about subjective views

 

[Anonymous]

A 2-way driver loudspeaker is easier to be implemented than a 3-way. But the best choice depend on the quality of the speakers and crossover components.

A well designed 2-way system with high quality 8 or 10" woofers can go deep in low frequencies. I heard impressive 2-way Tannoy and Daiatone's loudspeakers in 90"s.

Most megabuck high-end loudspeakers use 3-way systems but it's much more complicated and expensive to be implemented.

 

[Sliced Bread]

...they're less than GBP 4000 which in terms of high-end product isn't too excessive.

yep, but you can get good 3-way speakers for less than that too.

It's all case by case.