WOULD U CARE TO EXPLAIN BIAMPING?

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Pike900fish

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Jun 23, 2008
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Ashley James:The answer is that there would not be any benefit at all. You get no more headroom and since the tweeter does only about 5% of the work, the amp is wasted. There have been lots of debates about bi-wiring and bi-amping and science says it doesn't help. Going active does. In a two-way speaker system about 95% of the energy comes from the bass driver and 5% from the tweeter, so it's not really making life much harder for a single amplifier. In a big three way speaker about half the work is done by the Mid and tweeter and the other half by the bass driver so, if you had amps that were struggling to produce enough current but not volts, then there may be a benefit in using one to drive the bass and the other for the mid and treble. They would have to identical gain so best to use two the same. I hope this helps Ash

Thanks Ash. That helps alot. I'll leave as is then as i have plenty of power ontap. Save any outlay and go and buy a new cd. Best upgrade of all eh?
 

Andrew Everard

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May 30, 2007
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I'd have to disagree with Mr James, which I'm sure will come as no surprise to him. I think biamping is well worth trying with your speakers, and for the cost of a couple of Y-adapters - a couple of quid here - it's not an expensive experiment.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Has anyone used two intergrated amps for biamping,if so does it work.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Dougie 2:Has anyone used two intergrated amps for biamping,if so does it work.

As a point of historical interest I heard through Rick Pullar, our sales rep at the time (we are talking the very early 1990s!), that a UK customer somewhere in the north of England was using two Arcam Alpha 3 integrated amplifiers in a passive biamping mode (one amp per speaker I think) and that he did this because he heard a benefit despite the messing about with two volume controls.

So we tried this at the factory and to our ears also it worked! This gave us the idea to use an integrated amplifier plus external matching power amplifier as a practical real world solution - the first units were I believe a then new Delta 290 and 290P. We thought this was a more elegant solution to upgrading than adding an external power supply as some competitors were doing. When we demoed the system to various journalists (Andrew I think you were amongst them!) they heard the benefits too and the whole passive biamping business was born
Later we extended this all the way down our range and it proved very popular with up to a quarter of customers upgrading by adding a matching power amplifier at some point.

I have always explained that benefits are heard with passive biamping because real world amplifiers and speaker cables are less than perfect - if they were perfect then passive biamping should have little effect. However even with perfect amps etc there would still be some benefit at high power levels - for example if the bass mid-range amplifier clips by a couple of dBs, you won't get the harmonics from this clipping in the tweeter channels because they still have some headroom as they are working very lightly in terms of current delivery. This assumes you use say the integrated amp for the tweeters and an external power amp for the bass/mid range drivers.

Of course Ashley is also right that active crossovers can offer extra benefits. Sadly in the real world of consumer (as opposed to professional) electronics this is rarely possible for all sorts of market reasons.

Hope this helps.

John Dawson (Arcam)
 
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Anonymous

Guest
HI John(Arcam),

ÿI am using a A32 on the mid/tweeters and a alpha 9ÿintegratedÿ( in power amp mode(switched internally)) on the woofers. I have been told that arcams are all gain matched to it is ok to mix products, is this correct? I have found anÿimprovementÿin the detail of the sound, over using the A32 on its own.

ÿ

Have you anyÿcommentsÿon using the alpha 9 on the low end.

ÿ

cheersÿ
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Hi yes IIRC they are gain matched and it should all work fine


It's a bonus to be able to use an old integrated amp (configured as a power amp) on the bass end - and worth remembering for those who buy these on e-bay as the scarcer power amps often go for a very high sum.

In the long run you should perhaps consider an A38 to replace the A32 (you will hear the improvement!) as the main amp and use the A32 as your power amplifier. Of course I am biased but it will be better
 

Pike900fish

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Jun 23, 2008
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Andrew Everard:I'd have to disagree with Mr James, which I'm sure will come as no surprise to him. I think biamping is well worth trying with your speakers, and for the cost of a couple of Y-adapters - a couple of quid here - it's not an expensive experiment.

Thanks for the adaptor recommendation but i don't think this will fit. Could you suggest where I can get one of these as posted by you earlier in this thread?



Have seen cheap examples on ebay but does anyone make decent quality with at least gold plated contacts as per above pic. Cheers
 

Pike900fish

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Jun 23, 2008
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Pike900fish:

Andrew Everard:I'd have to disagree with Mr James, which I'm sure will come as no surprise to him. I think biamping is well worth trying with your speakers, and for the cost of a couple of Y-adapters - a couple of quid here - it's not an expensive experiment.

Thanks for the adaptor recommendation but i don't think this will fit. Could you suggest where I can get one of these as posted by you earlier in this thread?



Have seen cheap examples on ebay but does anyone make decent quality with at least gold plated contacts as per above pic. Cheers

have managed to source the Y interconnect as per above. Hope to connect it all up soon as a vertically Bi-amped set up (see pic) and will let you know how i get on.



Cheers
 

Pike900fish

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Jun 23, 2008
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Well Andrew, I promised an update and here it is.

Spent the day with the intention of Vertically Bi amping my system but I didn't bargain for the events that followed and the difference in sound!

Decided to install my new Van Damme speaker cable used for the LF connections. Remaining with my cheap Gale 4.2 flat cable for the HF. I will definitely upgrade as soon as funds allow. Whilst scrabbling around the floor routing cable and generally getting hot and flustered, the door bell rang. It was a cheerie delivery guy with my brand new Arcam CD73T bought from ebay for £201! Couldn't beleive the timing!...Any how, continued with the cable routing, switching my NAD 2200's back to stereo and generally cleaning everything up (connections etc).

I unpacked the Arcam and everything looked great so took the oppurtunity to install into my system. Had to break off for a hour or so early afternoon but when I got back I made the most of the break by making sure I checked, double checked and tripple checked all the connections.

Right...now satisfied, I fired up the system and just put any old cd on to check all working e.g phasing and L&R correct...All seemed well so decided to put to the test. Using the new Arcam would have been an unfair comparison as it was an unknown entity to me, so I deceide to spin a record...Wow!..what a sound. Bowies' Let's Dance album was unbeleivable...Bass was very punchy and full but not woolly. Plenty of power on tap. Imaging was fantastic and detail..well ..could pick out individual sounds that previously had just been a blur!!. Definite double Wow! factor. Continued with some CDs and when my son arrived home he had to put on some Thrash Metal...he was astounded by the difference in sound..he said the attack and impact was amazing. Not only was the overall sound powerfull but extremely detailed.

I know the Arcam will need a fair few hours to burn in and I can't wait. I have the rest of the week off now ..how lucky am I!!!

Thanks for everyones contributions.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
i currently have a set up that is based on the ex BBC Rogers LS5/8 ..Quad 405 am/16 amps and it is awsome.. this is TRUE bi ampimg where the whole power of each amp is used to drive one speaker set ..in effect it uses each of the stereo channels from each power amp to drive both the tweeter and the driver separately in each speaker ..which turns the quad 405 from a quality 100w amp into a pair of jaw dropping 300w titans.. no need for a sub with this set up.. ive been listening to hifi for the best part of 40 yrs and for true realistic live performance this is as good as it gets..The BBC uses tax payers money so they always had the best around .ive only heard one speaker out of hundreds and that would be the PMC OB1 that can compete ..
 

Pike900fish

New member
Jun 23, 2008
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bigrod:i currently have a set up that is based on the ex BBC Rogers LS5/8 ..Quad 405 am/16 amps and it is awsome.. this is TRUE bi ampimg where the whole power of each amp is used to drive one speaker set ..in effect it uses each of the stereo channels from each power amp to drive both the tweeter and the driver separately in each speaker ..which turns the quad 405 from a quality 100w amp into a pair of jaw dropping 300w titans.. no need for a sub with this set up.. ive been listening to hifi for the best part of 40 yrs and for true realistic live performance this is as good as it gets..The BBC uses tax payers money so they always had the best around .ive only heard one speaker out of hundreds and that would be the PMC OB1 that can compete ..

This also sounds like a Vertical Bi amped set up and am glad someone else out there is enjoying this experience. I'm not sure what the power output of my NAD 2200PEs is. the manual rates them at 100W/Channel into 8 Ohms and 500W/channel in monobloc configuration. However, the power I have now seems far greater than monblocing? I am so impressed with the scale of attack and impact this set up now has..seems like a completely different system!!

Need to sort better cabling for tweeter wiring though. Am not sure whether to get some more Van damme or cable around the same budget (as the Van damme!) that will be better for HF?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
bigrod:i currently have a set up that is based on the ex BBC Rogers LS5/8 ..Quad 405 am/16 amps and it is awsome.. this is TRUE bi ampimg where the whole power of each amp is used to drive one speaker set ..in effect it uses each of the stereo channels from each power amp to drive both the tweeter and the driver separately in each speaker ..which turns the quad 405 from a quality 100w amp into a pair of jaw dropping 300w titans.. no need for a sub with this set up.. ive been listening to hifi for the best part of 40 yrs and for true realistic live performance this is as good as it gets..The BBC uses tax payers money so they always had the best around .ive only heard one speaker out of hundreds and that would be the PMC OB1 that can compete ..

So how many amps have you used here? Am interested to get more detail on how you've set them up.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Andrew Everard:I'd have to disagree with Mr James, which I'm sure will come as no surprise to him. I think biamping is well worth trying with your speakers, and for the cost of a couple of Y-adapters - a couple of quid here - it's not an expensive experiment.

And for the sake of balance, I disagree with Andrew, but agree fully with Ashley.

Biamping is nonsense, unless you have very thin (and hence resistive) speaker leads. If you use a single amplifier, thin speaker leads, and passive crossover, there may be some undesired crosstalk between the net signals applied to the bass/mid and tweeter units. Biampng solves this, but it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut ! A much more logical and economic solution is to use much thicker low resistance speaker leads with your existing amp.

As Ashley points out, if you are going to use a multi-amplifier solution, it only really makes any sense if you also use active crossovers.

Chris.

(PS. For the record, I work in the professional electronics industry, as an analogue circuit designer).
 

Andrew Everard

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May 30, 2007
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No problem - you stick to your absolute statement that

cs:Biamping is nonsense

and those of us who have tried it and heard the benefits will continue on our merry, musically involving way.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Andrew Everard:
Biamping is nonsense

Try this simple test :-

First listen to your biamped system. Then connect the two sets of speakers leads in parallel, but connected to one of the amps only, and the bridging links reinstated on the speakers. It will sound exactly the same.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Out of curiosity (and a desire to experiment with biamping my a30.2 primare) I did ask whether it was necessary to disable the passive crossover to get a true biamping solution - so thanks cs for your reply :). I did read (link below) that passive biamping would otherwise be a very expensive way of very slightly improving the sound of a given system (hammer/nut). This article is one I came across a while ago when trying to decide whether it would be worthwhile passive biamping and I have to say it is very convincing. Thing is though i don;t like the idea of modifying my speakers (yet) so may decide to biamp (passively) anyway.. we'll see.

article

would be interesting to hear what peoples thoughts are on this benefits may be heard with biamping passively but it does seem that it is a waste of money, at least, in comparison to what could be achieved with a (modified to )active electronic xover
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Andrew Everard:IME no it doesn't.

If you were at all technically literate, you would understand why that statement is utter garbage.

There are simple technical reasons why a passive single amplifier system and a passive biamped system will sound virtually the same, unless the test has been rigged with silly thin speaker cables.

Likewise, there are simple technical reasons why an active system will sound massively better.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
JAXON5:...benefits may be heard with biamping passively but it does seem that it is a waste of money, at least, in comparison to what could be achieved with a (modified to )active electronic xover

Absolutely.

If you already have two stereo amplifiers (or more specifically, two stereo power amplifiers), you may like to consider obtaining an active crossover network. This would then be inserted between your preamp and the two power amps, and the power amps would then drive the speaker units (bass/mid and tweeter) directly. I this case, you do have to remove the existing passive crossovers, of course. This would give you a true active system, and the improvement in sound quality would then be very significant and real !

Chris.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
With all due respect Andrew all sorts of people believe they can hear all sorts of things, it's a human failing that all of us suffer from. However scientists are aware of the problem and try to find ways of proving or disproving these things. In this particular a case a blind listening test under properly controlled conditions would show that you were mistaken.

Sadly the credibility of hi fi and its enthusiasts has been badly damaged by this sort of stuff. Once people convince themselves that their ears are totally reliable, the door is open for charlatans to sell all sorts of highly profitable "tweaks" that have no basis in science and cannot possibly make a difference.

I can see CS is climbing the walls, it's nothing new, engineers and scientists have been doing it for years with the hi fi fraternity. It's a great pity because rational discussion is impossible with people who believe but don't understand

Ashley
 

professorhat

Well-known member
Dec 28, 2007
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I don't understand why people keep trying to force us to just read graphs and technical measurements instead of just listening and enjoying the sound. The moment you try and insist something sounds better because a graph says so rather than because I can actually hear it is the moment I lose interest in your opinions I'm afraid.
 

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