Why many WHF reviews may be meaningless.

johnnyboy1950

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It dawned on me recently while reading a review. It came about when the reviewer discribed the "reference" gear that they had hooked up to the equipment being reviewed.

So if a £300 amp is connected up to WHF's £8000 reference speakers and a £5000 CD player (you get the drift), the there may be issues with insight , timing, tonality, cohisiveness (is there such a word?) and all the seemingly endless adjectives used. So would anyone buy a amp CD player DAC speakers etc. and pair them with kit costin 10 times the amount. Granted its a level playing field and differences will emerge but if nobody is pairing reference equipment with budget, midrange or even high end (not reference) gear then nobody will hear the difference.
 
What I’ve noticed (in general) is as I’ve bought higher priced gear, is the detail, musicality, quality improves. So, to have a very good amp and test lower priced sources is beneficial as it will show its strengths and weaknesses.
 

Native_bon

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bigfish786 said:
What I’ve noticed (in general) is as I’ve bought higher priced gear, is the detail, musicality, quality improves. So, to have a very good amp and test lower priced sources is beneficial as it will show its strengths and weaknesses. 

 
Not quite sure about that one. Even very expensive Hi-fi has weaknesses and if not matched properly with care and attention can also sound horrible. All things being equal every reviewed items performance will mostly depend on what it's paired with.
 
Native_bon said:
bigfish786 said:
What I’ve noticed (in general) is as I’ve bought higher priced gear, is the detail, musicality, quality improves. So, to have a very good amp and test lower priced sources is beneficial as it will show its strengths and weaknesses.
Not quite sure about that one. Even very expensive Hi-fi has weaknesses and if not matched properly with care and attention can also sound horrible. All things being equal every reviewed items performance will mostly depend on what it's paired with.

sorry, the major word I missed out was neutral.

Good amplification adds nor removes anything from the signal it receives.

The ability to reveal another components characteristics is vital to make an accurate description of what you are experiencing.
 

Native_bon

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bigfish786 said:
Native_bon said:
bigfish786 said:
What I’ve noticed (in general) is as I’ve bought higher priced gear, is the detail, musicality, quality improves. So, to have a very good amp and test lower priced sources is beneficial as it will show its strengths and weaknesses. 

 
Not quite sure about that one. Even very expensive Hi-fi has weaknesses and if not matched properly with care and attention can also sound horrible. All things being equal every reviewed items performance will mostly depend on what it's paired with.

sorry, the major word I missed out was neutral. 

Good amplification adds nor removes anything from the signal it receives. 

The ability to reveal another components characteristics is vital to make an accurate description of what you are experiencing. 
Yes you right, but it gets a little more complicated in the real world.
Pair together a neutral amp and speaker and yet sometimes the magic does not happen.
 

lindsayt

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johnnyboy1950 said:
... So would anyone buy a amp CD player DAC speakers etc. and pair them with kit costin 10 times the amount. Granted its a level playing field and differences will emerge but if nobody is pairing reference equipment with budget, midrange or even high end (not reference) gear then nobody will hear the difference.
I understand where you're coming from.

My speakers cost me 275 times more than my CD player. Sounds fine.

For me, the best hi-fi reviews are comparative.
 

insider9

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My issues with reviews are often that we don't know the likes and dislikes of reviewers and how objective they can be. Generally as reviewers don't share these.

Another thing is that many people nowadays describe things as good simply because they like them not because they are in fact good. For me it is a big distinction.

As to reference systems I think familiarity is important when reviewing. But the more effort went into and the more gear was used the better (of course over extended period). Only way to test amps is using speakers they are reasonably expected to power. Using power hungry speakers as one of the pairs is fine however not as the only pair.
 
They are damned if they do, damned if they don't...

The reviewers test gear with their current stocks, by price compatible stuff and to test with reference kit. But testing isn't (has never been) an exact science. I've always looked at reviews as a rough guide -- I've never purchased purely based on a single review, apart from Grado headphones.

Reviewers are human, and thus will always remain a subjective test of a kit/kits.
 

Gazzip

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Reviews are quite useful for gaining an understanding of features, connectivity, build quality, glitches, general pros and cons etc. I do however agree that from a SQ perspective there is not a lot one can get from a review.
 

Sliced Bread

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I wouldn’t say reviews are meaningless, but it does highlight a point that many have bought up before; that the review should detail partnering equipment used in the review.

Even if components are price comparable, synergy is still an issue.

I’ve noticed some WHF reviews stating what they have used and it’s always useful to know. It would be great if that could be done on all occasions.

This is why I quite enjoy system reviews as your taking all products as a whole and seeing what sound they make.

Maybe a test with reference equipment AND price comparable equipment. A case in point could hard-to-drive mid range speakers which could shine with some serious amplification but sound poor with an amplifier your likely to actually use at the price point.
 

insider9

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Samd said:
insider9 said:
Another thing is that many people nowadays describe things as good simply because they like them not because they are in fact good. For me it is a big distinction.

You have lost me there squire! 
I like how ribbon tweeters sound. It is what I prefer. However ribbons have many cons I'm not that bothered by. However the fact I like them doesn't make them better. Many would argue they are just because they prefer them. My point is about objectivity.

CD is a superior format to vinyl but many who prefer vinyl claim it is better for no other reason then their preference for it. Lots other examples
 

johnnyboy1950

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Ive long thought this. WHF go into massive detail about SQ, most adjectives used I dont really understand. However with todays technology I think its important also to review how well the equipment works. WHF usually flags up any dodgy apps but thats about it. Maybe another category, "Does it do what it says on the tin"?
 

Samd

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insider9 said:
Samd said:
insider9 said:
Another thing is that many people nowadays describe things as good simply because they like them not because they are in fact good. For me it is a big distinction.

You have lost me there squire!
I like how ribbon tweeters sound. It is what I prefer. However ribbons have many cons I'm not that bothered by. However the fact I like them doesn't make them better. Many would argue they are just because they prefer them. My point is about objectivity.

CD is a superior format to vinyl but many who prefer vinyl claim it is better for no other reason then their preference for it. Lots other examples

..but we should be driven by what we like rather than what's better! There really is no such thing as bad (not good) hifi - just looked at the first doz or so pages of reviews in a couple of categories on this site and the lowest was 4 star and better hifi is not solely defined by performance. What we like in terms of looks, sound characteristics, costs, space etc do and should be key parts of the decision.

Following a recommendation by a member here, I bought a brand new Chinese amp for £50 with warranty, hooked it up to a couple of QA 3010s with some spare bell wire (nearly!) and a Sonos Connect both of which had been over-wintering in the garage and the results are hugely entertaining. The speakers are plonked on wall-mounted, adjustable shelving either side of the window, are jammed against the wall, side and rear and one is 2" higher than the other! In terms of pound per sound required compared with pound per sound delivered, they rank very highly.

The Iron Lady, once she is up to steam on my 'Y' Fronts, thinks they are great and I like them!
 

Romulus

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For me a review is just an indicator and the crucial part is to audition the gear in question yourself. If reviews from various sources around the world roughly say the same thing in different ways about the same HiFi component that gives me a more conclusive indicator about the nature of the component; unless there is some sort of HiFi conspiracy going on with ulterior motives! My frustration with reviews is when they are not specific or factual or even comprehensive in choice of music. Often in English reviews the reviewer praises the sound of a product without explaining what associated equipment was used or whether the DAC in the amplifier was any good or just a description of the sound. Other reviews are extremely limited to the choice of music used for the review; the latest example is HiFi Choice review of the Naim Uniti Star. The review praises the sound but all the music tested was sort of samey band oriented music (eg no orchestra), the review went on to imply you cannot use the Uniti Star as background music or relaxing music as it takes the music by the scruff of its neck, no nonsense approach. The mystery for me is ah the music is full on in presentation so does it cause fatigue in long term use? Is the soundstage wide with depth with instruments having their own space? My biggest mystery is with What HiFi reviews that they have completely ignored Hegel brand. There is no excuse, Hegel products are reviewed all over the world including in What HiFi in different countries, what a shame on Uk WHF.
 

Gaz37

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What about the self proclaimed experts on forums who insist their system is the greatest?
At least WHF reviewer don't suggest anybody disagreeing with their review is stupid or hard of hearing.
Just saying
 

Hawkwind16

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One of the problems with WHF reviews is that they tend to favour certain manufacturers eg Rega, Quad, Cambridge Audio, Roksan, cheap Marantz ( which coincidentally tends to be what most of their advertisers sell... hmmmmm). They never or very rarely test high end Marantz or Rotel anymore for example and have all but destroyed the market share for these products in this country.

They also tend to overuse superlatives for their 'favoured' kit, probably to suck readers into buying more products from their um, advertisers.

I think their may be a connection here but i can't quite put my finger on it.
 

Gazzip

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Hawkwind16 said:
One of the problems with WHF reviews is that they tend to favour certain manufacturers eg Rega, Quad, Cambridge Audio, Roksan, cheap Marantz ( which coincidentally tends to be what most of their advertisers sell... hmmmmm). They never or very rarely test high end Marantz or Rotel anymore for example and have all but destroyed the market share for these products in this country.

They also tend to overuse superlatives for their 'favoured' kit, probably to suck readers into buying more products from their um, advertisers.

I think their may be a connection here but i can't quite put my finger on it.

I am pretty sure that WHF review whatever kit they are given to review. If I wanted to sell my product I would advertise it at the same time I’d sent it for review. I used to think there was “stuff” going on, but TBH I doubt if that is the case.
 

spiny norman

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Gazzip said:
If I wanted to sell my product I would advertise it at the same time I’d sent it for review.

Why? Surely if you're getting a one or two page 'review' in a copy of the magazine, you can save your advertising spend that month - much better to use it when you're not being covered in the magazine, to keep your product in front of the readers.
 

chebby

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Hawkwind16 said:
One of the problems with WHF reviews is that they tend to favour certain manufacturers eg Rega, Quad, Cambridge Audio, Roksan, cheap Marantz ( which coincidentally tends to be what most of their advertisers sell... hmmmmm).

Show me a Rega advert in any issue of any magazine from 1973 until today. (It was first on your list.)
 

Hawkwind16

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chebby said:
Hawkwind16 said:
One of the problems with WHF reviews is that they tend to favour certain manufacturers eg Rega, Quad, Cambridge Audio, Roksan, cheap Marantz ( which coincidentally tends to be what most of their advertisers sell... hmmmmm).

Show me a Rega advert in any issue of any magazine from 1973 until today. (It was first on your list.)

Many retailers advertise Rega items for sale.

If you think I'm going to try and look through every WHF since 1973 and then send copies onto you, you are mistaken.
 

jjbomber

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Hawkwind16 said:
One of the problems with WHF reviews is that they tend to favour certain manufacturers

I think their may be a connection here but i can't quite put my finger on it.

Look at today's test. Astell & Kern (promoted by Claire Newsome, ex-WhatHiFi staff) v Sony. In fact, there isn't any need to look at the test. Everybody knows who will 'win' that one.
 

CnoEvil

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I would not accuse WHF of biasing reviews based on advertising revenue...but they are part of and promote the industry. This does not mean their reviews are wrong, only that they will try to find the positives in a product and not be too sore on it.

The bias of a reviewer and their listening room will impact on how a component comes across.

Personally, I would like to know the name/names of the reviewer and the kit that was used....so I can identify personal preferences and judge accordingly.

I (personally) would rather a percentage system in various areas (eg. SQ/Value for money/build quality etc....and graded, not against its peers, but against the ideal, so I can get an idea where a product slots in overall.

Stars make life easy, especially for manfacturers to promote their products.....a 30% SQ rating for a budget component would not be good for marketing....even though that might be the highest in its price catagory.

For example, if the Kef Blade got a 90%, what would the R700s get if judged the same way; or if a Linn Klimax DS got a 90%, what would a Majik DS get.
 

chebby

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Hawkwind16 said:
chebby said:
Hawkwind16 said:
One of the problems with WHF reviews is that they tend to favour certain manufacturers eg Rega, Quad, Cambridge Audio, Roksan, cheap Marantz ( which coincidentally tends to be what most of their advertisers sell... hmmmmm).

Show me a Rega advert in any issue of any magazine from 1973 until today. (It was first on your list.)

Many retailers advertise Rega items for sale.

If you think I'm going to try and look through every WHF since 1973 and then send copies onto you, you are mistaken.

The point was that Rega don’t advertise. Not in What Hifi nor any other magazine. Ever.

So how does this financial relationship work in their case?

Anyway, you made the accusations so the burden of proof is on you.
 

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