Why Mains conditioners and Cables Can Help!

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I know the topic is a ropey one but im going to put some light on this as an engineer from a purely electronic background.

Amplification is a badly missunderstood technology. And its mainly these misconceptions that create these views of mains products being a needless cost. Not to say all systems need it or that you will notice the difference in all systems but electronicly it does make a difference. And here is why!

Most people think an amplifier takes a signal from an input and makes it loud enough to drive your speakers. This is not true!

An amplifier is much more complicated im afraid. What an amplifier does is takes an incoming signal and creates a NEW ONE identical but with a bigger voltage and current. This is where it gets tricky for amplifier builders.
The signal that comes into an amplifier is tiny. thousands of a volt at times and its constantly changing. What your amplifier does is take the input and feed it into an arrangement that comares the signal to itself and then can reduce the voltage however much you want. Essencially a volume control. Then the new signal is fed into a pair of drive transistors. One PUSH transistor and one PULL. As the signal voltage passes into a possitive voltage the push transistor turns on and pulls current straight from the transformer. The higher the transformer voltage the harder it pushes. When the signal drops below 0 and starts becoming a negative voltage the pull transistor does the same. This causes an Alternating current (AC) which in turn drives the Speaker. This AC is the same as the reference current (CD player signal) but is bigger in Voltage. The new signal that is driving the speakers however consists entirely of the amps transformer power. Its this reason that the amp has a sound of its own as wiring components and even the amount of coils on the transformer differ from amp to amp.

Because all electrical components effect the way electrical signals eventually sound, amp builders dont like to build in too much in the way of protection form the mains. The purer the voltage to the transistors the more like the input signal the output signal should be.

Of course all makers are different and all models differ. But remember the mains is messy as hell. Its a circuit with alot of other suff on it and not just yours but the entire country.

Try This:
Turn on your amp and no sources. Now turn it up loud and listen to the speakers. You will almost deffinatley hear a low hissing. You will sometimes even make out voices and even music! This is coming from the mains and even being picked up by the amps chassis. Mains condidtioners help iron this out. creating a more pure voltage does come at a cost though. All that stuff between you an the mains means a loss of current on tap when you need it.

Think of the mains water supply. When you turn your tap on how fast can the water get up to full speed? The more you put on the end of the tap the less pressure you may have to do work. Your amp is the same. When a drum hit comes through, the amp has to instantly pull enough current fast enough to create that signal. If it cant pull it from the transformer quick enough the leading edge of the drum hit may sound softer that it should. This is why mains condidtioners can affects the sond of a hi fi so dramatically. And because different frequencys pull power in a different way cables also have to be very versatile in their design.

Some metals conduct better than others and some have different benefits. ALL CABLES AFFECT THE SOUND! Just like any electrical component a piece of wire can affect the sound of the amp. So cable manufacturers produce the perfect path to ensure maximum flow of power regadless of frequency.

HOWEVER

All this is entirely dependant on the condition of your mains supply and how good your system isolates that supply, and if the system is even good enough to produce the difference. I live in cornwall and thus my mains is nice and clean because theres little down here to mess it up. But in a city it can get really bad. This again is why some people swear that the difference is astounding and others swear it make no difference. Even some areas in big citys get away with little or no mains interferance. Its got to be judged case to case. And even hi-fi component to component. Your amp may need one but not your CD player, or even vice versa.

The point is however undisputable that electrically speaking they do what theyre supposed to.

 

idc

Well-known member
Hi fizzyhair. Sounds convincing to me, but I am biased towards the benefits anyway. What is you background/training, is it with hifi?

My present setup is crystal clear. Even though we have moved to the middle of a housing estate the mains seems pretty clean. My hifi is on its own spur. It has a mains conditioner. As a result I have to turn the amp up to max to get any hiss at all.
 
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Anonymous

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I live within walking distance of a coal and gass power station, and two trading/industrial estates, one of which is the second largest in the UK. A row of pylons goes right through the middle of the housing estate I live on. But I do not get a hum on mains supply. Mains hum is typically a ground loop problem caused by having components plugged into different wall sockets, or a computer (due to the switch mode power supply) or fridge/freezer on the same mains circuit introducing noise. A mains conditioner should get rid of it. Other causes can be the mains cable causing interference to interconnector cables, which a better shielded mains cable might solve. In my opinion both of these problems can however usually be solved without resorting to buying expensive hifi power conditioners and power cables. Lots of people will hear hum or interference there first step should not be to buy expensive accessories but to identify the cause of the problem. Which might enable them to eliminate it for nothing. If you live on a farm or in a factory and are on the same circuit as heavy industrial or farming equipment or live next door to a television transmitter I can see the possible need for specialist hifi power conditioners and power cables.
 
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Anonymous

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I Have experience building guitar and Hi-Fi amplifiers. My profession is as an audio technology technician. I work on recording studio equipment etc. And i can tell you if the studios spend hundreds of thousand of pounds getting this problem sorted it must exist.

I must admit there are many issues affecting signal purity and causing interferance within a system. And i have only touched on the mains interferance side of it. Shielding is also an issue as is the fact that some houses are better wired up than others. There will always be people who live 10 feet from a oil refinery who still have a nice clean mains signal. There will always be people who live in the middle of nowhere where the mains is messier than a baby with baked beans. There will always be people who cant hear the difference.

I agree the majority of mains noise is from internal loops, usually a compressor or a swich mode psu. The bigist culpret is a laptop plugged via USB into a printer. As laptop USB is rarely on an isolated groung lift. Or a Fridge freezer etc. And there is never... NEVER a case when your first thought should be to run out and buy expensive AV accessories. Always look to your environment first. What can you do to help.

My point here is purely to argue the case for those who want that little extra having tried everything else. And to explain why there is two groups who dont see eye to eye on this matter.

The sad fact is most people really dont have the money for a system worthy of these changes. Most of us have midrange systems where mains condidtioning is built in much more than the "Purist" hi end stuff. So unless the mains is a problem the differences probably arnt huge. Im not afraid to say i fitted a home made power conditioner and it made a huge difference. But even the £250 russ andrews cable i borrowed form work made no difference at all. And yet in work the roland keyboard it belonged to wasnt the same without it.
 

RCduck7

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Anyone has to try the Wirword Aurora! The deep bass was that i considered normal became very solid and punchy.

And the rest was good to on my amp to, allthough there wasn't that spectacular gain on the source, there was the Supra Lorad best price/quality...

And i haven't tried the pricier Wireworlds, but i guess they wouldn't give that much more for your buck.
 

idc

Well-known member
fizzyhair:

..... And i can tell you if the studios spend hundreds of thousand of pounds getting this problem sorted it must exist......

That is interesting. In a number of past mains debates claims have been made that studios don't bother with such items, but say they do.
 
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Anonymous

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Hi, Apologies if I'm sullying the forum with a moronic question,but given your obvious expertise and knowledge I would appreciate greatly an answer/opinion to this querie.

I have two Quad 405 power amps,44 pre-amp and Esl-63 Electrostatic speakers(independantly mains fed as I'm sure you know) all are fairly old.

My question is: If I bought a Lindy 6-way for example or higher grade mains conditioner,would this make it pointless buying upgraded mains leads for the individual components? Or vice-versa?

Or would it be a case of doing one would be a slight improvement and doing both would be a greater inprovement.

Thank you in advance for your help.
 

idc

Well-known member
Hi dged136, no moronic questions here! Or if there are, then I was a complete moron and still am, sometimes.

The answer is different for different setups. I have moved house a lot and found mains conditioning varied from house to house. I also found mains cables had different effects on different componenets. But buying a mans conditioner does not necessarily mean there will be no benefit from a better mains cable. This is where the advantage of buying from companies which give no quibble money back guarantees comes in. You can try before you fully commit to buy.
 

aliEnRIK

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Nice post Fizzy
emotion-21.gif


Im a hugh cable believer but through my own experiments, not just because I read about them somewhere

Im also really interested that studios use them too as the 'cable voodoo posse' seem adamant that studios dont use anything
 

PJPro

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fizzyhair:
.....When a drum hit comes through, the amp has to instantly pull enough current fast enough to create that signal. If it cant pull it from the transformer quick enough the leading edge of the drum hit may sound softer that it should......

This sort of instant hit stuff comes from the power caps, not the transformer. Think of them as a big dam, trickling out current. When the big demand comes, they use the current they have stored to supply it......to levels beyond the capability of the transformer.
 

PJPro

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fizzyhair:.......
Because all electrical components effect the way electrical signals eventually sound, amp builders dont like to build in too much in the way of protection form the mains. The purer the voltage to the transistors the more like the input signal the output signal should be.

Of course all makers are different and all models differ. But remember the mains is messy as hell. Its a circuit with alot of other suff on it and not just yours but the entire country.
......

Errr, for me, these statements are contradictory. Manufacturers limit the number of components so as not to affect the sound cos they like a pure signal and yet, as you say, the mains is a messy as hell.

I think you are right that manufacturers recognise the importance of getting the power supply right. Indeed, a great deal of effort will go into the design of these components. However, there's only so much that can be done within the limitations of the case.

Changing the power cable will do little to affect the vast majority of messy mains symptoms you identify. Using an large external filter will.
 

bretty

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fizzyhair:
I know the topic is a ropey one but im going to put some light on this as an engineer from a purely electronic background.

Amplification is a badly missunderstood technology. And its mainly these misconceptions that create these views of mains products being a needless cost. Not to say all systems need it or that you will notice the difference in all systems but electronicly it does make a difference. And here is why!

Most people think an amplifier takes a signal from an input and makes it loud enough to drive your speakers. This is not true!

An amplifier is much more complicated im afraid. What an amplifier does is takes an incoming signal and creates a NEW ONE identical but with a bigger voltage and current. This is where it gets tricky for amplifier builders.
The signal that comes into an amplifier is tiny. thousands of a volt at times and its constantly changing. What your amplifier does is take the input and feed it into an arrangement that comares the signal to itself and then can reduce the voltage however much you want. Essencially a volume control. Then the new signal is fed into a pair of drive transistors. One PUSH transistor and one PULL. As the signal voltage passes into a possitive voltage the push transistor turns on and pulls current straight from the transformer. The higher the transformer voltage the harder it pushes. When the signal drops below 0 and starts becoming a negative voltage the pull transistor does the same. This causes an Alternating current (AC) which in turn drives the Speaker. This AC is the same as the reference current (CD player signal) but is bigger in Voltage. The new signal that is driving the speakers however consists entirely of the amps transformer power. Its this reason that the amp has a sound of its own as wiring components and even the amount of coils on the transformer differ from amp to amp.

Because all electrical components effect the way electrical signals eventually sound, amp builders dont like to build in too much in the way of protection form the mains. The purer the voltage to the transistors the more like the input signal the output signal should be.

Of course all makers are different and all models differ. But remember the mains is messy as hell. Its a circuit with alot of other suff on it and not just yours but the entire country.

Try This:
Turn on your amp and no sources. Now turn it up loud and listen to the speakers. You will almost deffinatley hear a low hissing. You will sometimes even make out voices and even music! This is coming from the mains and even being picked up by the amps chassis. Mains condidtioners help iron this out. creating a more pure voltage does come at a cost though. All that stuff between you an the mains means a loss of current on tap when you need it.

Think of the mains water supply. When you turn your tap on how fast can the water get up to full speed? The more you put on the end of the tap the less pressure you may have to do work. Your amp is the same. When a drum hit comes through, the amp has to instantly pull enough current fast enough to create that signal. If it cant pull it from the transformer quick enough the leading edge of the drum hit may sound softer that it should. This is why mains condidtioners can affects the sond of a hi fi so dramatically. And because different frequencys pull power in a different way cables also have to be very versatile in their design.

Some metals conduct better than others and some have different benefits. ALL CABLES AFFECT THE SOUND! Just like any electrical component a piece of wire can affect the sound of the amp. So cable manufacturers produce the perfect path to ensure maximum flow of power regadless of frequency.

HOWEVER

All this is entirely dependant on the condition of your mains supply and how good your system isolates that supply, and if the system is even good enough to produce the difference. I live in cornwall and thus my mains is nice and clean because theres little down here to mess it up. But in a city it can get really bad. This again is why some people swear that the difference is astounding and others swear it make no difference. Even some areas in big citys get away with little or no mains interferance. Its got to be judged case to case. And even hi-fi component to component. Your amp may need one but not your CD player, or even vice versa.

The point is however undisputable that electrically speaking they do what theyre supposed to.



Fizzy, I think that's easily the best post that's ever been on this forum. Eloquently put, in a way that a complete layman like me can understand, using electrical theory to back up your point instead of the usual 'it can/can't work, 'cos I said so' gubbins.

I'm now that little bit closer to understanding how my little magic boxes make noise. Thank you.

Brilliant! Good on ya!
 
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Anonymous

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Nice to have a forum where mains cables/conditioners etc can be discussed maturely without ending up with arguments and abusive language from the non-believers, how refreshing, good post by the way.
 

kena

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aliEnRIK:

Im also really interested that studios use them too as the 'cable voodoo posse' seem adamant that studios dont use anything

I definately recall ages ago reading in one of the the RA mags he sends out that Dave Gilmour's studio used his power leads & interconnects.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
kena:aliEnRIK:

Im also really interested that studios use them too as the 'cable voodoo posse' seem adamant that studios dont use anything

I definately recall ages ago reading in one of the the RA mags he sends out that Dave Gilmour's studio used his power leads & interconnects.

correct
 

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