Why is the mag so good??

[bigblue235]

Sorry for picking your post out Joel, but you're summing up well what a few people are trying to say.

JoelSim:The heartland is being sidelined in favour of the TV crowd.

But what is 'The heartland'? I guess that's different for everyone? The heartland for the more serious enthusiast is usually the more serious kit, but that isn't what sells in big numbers. So if the kit itself doesn't sell in big numbers, couldn't it be possible that a mag that reviewed mainly said kit wouldn't sell in big numbers either? The aspiration for the average punter is a 42" TV and a home cinema in a box, so if the mag review that stuff, then surely they get more readers?

The problem with this is, once the hifi subscribers go elsewhere, those who buy the mag are either: a) simply here for the free subscription gift b) are interested in purchasing a telly Hifi 'buffs' are serial upgraders and have many components to upgrade, someone who is buying a telly is buying one for a few years. Think about it.

Yup, but in a set period of time, even though a typical hi-fi buff spends more upgrading his hi-fi than your average bloke spends on a telly, I bet there are far, far more average blokes buying TV's. There must be more TV sales than hi-fi sales/upgrades taking place, or else the hi-fi shops wouldn't be shutting down with such alarming regularity. Yes, it may just be a transitional time in the market, but when things shift back to hi-fi, or to somewhere else, maybe the mag can shift too?

I also agree that my other 2 subscriptions are for magazines that last much longer and have hifi on every page. My heart sinks when reading (WHF) Sound & Vision as more than half of it isn't relevant any more, the habitual TV supertest being a case in point. In addition much of this mag is now about low-fi and it's simply for a false/transient circulation that's going to get harder and harder to maintain. And I have been reading What HiFi for nearly 20 years now and it's losing its appeal.

But what 'isn't relevant' to you or I is probably pretty relevant to other people. I bet a shed-load of people buy the mag purely for the TV supertests. So maybe WHF are just aiming at the majority? Whilst it's good retaining customers, surely retaining a small, loyal readership isn't as good as having a high casual readership? I'm guessing that the more traditional hi-fi mags sell far fewer copies than WHF?

In a similar vein, when I used to help out with a golf forum, we'd repeatedly receive requests for info about the gear the pros used, or ultra high-end stuff. No-one seemed to care about the bread and butter stuff. But when we put up info about a mass market release, that appealed to your average player, we'd get a ton more clicks (and more importantly sales) from lurkers. I'm a member of a few specialist forums, and what I see across almost all of them is that enthusiasts know what they like, have a fair idea of what other enthusiasts will like, have less of an idea what non-enthusiasts will like, and have practically no idea what sells!

What I'm long windedly trying to say is that the content of the mag isn't always what I enjoy either (I made a thread with regard to this a while back) but I can see why WHF set out their stall this way. They just seem to be responding to market trends. Once everyone has their plasma/LCD and people start buying something else, I guess the mag will feature that 'something else' at the time.

 

[JoelSim]

bigblue235:
Sorry for picking your post out Joel, but you're summing up well what a few people are trying to say.

JoelSim:The heartland is being sidelined in favour of the TV crowd.

But what is 'The heartland'? I guess that's different for everyone? The heartland for the more serious enthusiast is usually the more serious kit, but that isn't what sells in big numbers. So if the kit itself doesn't sell in big numbers, couldn't it be possible that a mag that reviewed mainly said kit wouldn't sell in big numbers either? The aspiration for the average punter is a 42" TV and a home cinema in a box, so if the mag review that stuff, then surely they get more readers?

The problem with this is, once the hifi subscribers go elsewhere, those who buy the mag are either: a) simply here for the free subscription gift b) are interested in purchasing a telly Hifi 'buffs' are serial upgraders and have many components to upgrade, someone who is buying a telly is buying one for a few years. Think about it.

Yup, but in a set period of time, even though a typical hi-fi buff spends more upgrading his hi-fi than your average bloke spends on a telly, I bet there are far, far more average blokes buying TV's. There must be more TV sales than hi-fi sales/upgrades taking place, or else the hi-fi shops wouldn't be shutting down with such alarming regularity. Yes, it may just be a transitional time in the market, but when things shift back to hi-fi, or to somewhere else, maybe the mag can shift too?

I also agree that my other 2 subscriptions are for magazines that last much longer and have hifi on every page. My heart sinks when reading (WHF) Sound & Vision as more than half of it isn't relevant any more, the habitual TV supertest being a case in point. In addition much of this mag is now about low-fi and it's simply for a false/transient circulation that's going to get harder and harder to maintain. And I have been reading What HiFi for nearly 20 years now and it's losing its appeal.

But what 'isn't relevant' to you or I is probably pretty relevant to other people. I bet a shed-load of people buy the mag purely for the TV supertests. So maybe WHF are just aiming at the majority? Whilst it's good retaining customers, surely retaining a small, loyal readership isn't as good as having a high casual readership? I'm guessing that the more traditional hi-fi mags sell far fewer copies than WHF?

In a similar vein, when I used to help out with a golf forum, we'd repeatedly receive requests for info about the gear the pros used, or ultra high-end stuff. No-one seemed to care about the bread and butter stuff. But when we put up info about a mass market release, that appealed to your average player, we'd get a ton more clicks (and more importantly sales) from lurkers. I'm a member of a few specialist forums, and what I see across almost all of them is that enthusiasts know what they like, have a fair idea of what other enthusiasts will like, have less of an idea what non-enthusiasts will like, and have practically no idea what sells!

What I'm long windedly trying to say is that the content of the mag isn't always what I enjoy either (I made a thread with regard to this a while back) but I can see why WHF set out their stall this way. They just seem to be responding to market trends. Once everyone has their plasma/LCD and people start buying something else, I guess the mag will feature that 'something else' at the time.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I understand the economics, but the current climate is still fairly new in that big tvs are still really in their infancy. Once digital is over and done with, WHF will be left with few loyals.

The other side to this is the hifi manufacturers, who will see the hifi buffs migrating, and then they won't advertise as much and WHF will slowly become WSAV, the specialist and enthusiast readers will be gone (as will some of the hifi companies), and the vicious circle will continue until everyone is listening to average pap.

Surely as the most-read hifi magazine in the UK by quite some distance, and of course where their history lies, WHF has a certain responsibility to that wot made it!!!!.

 

[Anonymous]

WHF needs to get back to it's roots - 2 channel hi-fi. This is what made the magazine world famous. The 'Sound and Vision' bit that is a recent phenomena appears to have hijacked the magazine and we're now left with what it is today.

Maybe a solution to this would be to offer an option - one magazine to hifi buffs and the other to home cinema buffs. This way there's a clear differentiation and distinction between the two - a win-win situation to the subscribers and to WHF. Just make sure that both magazines are jam packed with the good stuff and leaves no room for complaints.

I must at this juncture draw a comparison with your sister (or is it brother?) publication, AUTOCAR, which I subscribe to as well. I get a magazine EVERY WEEK, and it's nothing short of fantastic! How do they do it then? Being under the same group, Haymarket, doesn't the same ethos apply to all the publications across the board?

Again, not a complaint but a constructive criticism. And, just my 2 pence worth!

 

[bigblue235]

JoelSim:I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I understand the economics, but the current climate is still fairly new in that big tvs are still really in their infancy. Once digital is over and done with, WHF will be left with few loyals.

I get you, but I still feel that they'll retain people who maybe take the magazine for what it is currently, rather than what it used to be. I bought the mag for a few years then gave up on it 'til surround sound came out. I remember buying every mag available for reviews of the MS decoder1! The whole pro-logic thing got me hooked on the mag again. Then I kinda drifted away 'til I had a bit of spare cash so came back to see what was available. Stopped buying again 'til the mag became a great place for TV reviews. If WHF had stayed strictly 2-channel I'd have bought nowhere near as many copies.

The other side to this is the hifi manufacturers, who will see the hifi buffs migrating, and then they won't advertise as much and WHF will slowly become WSAV, the specialist and enthusiast readers will be gone (as will some of the hifi companies), and the vicious circle will continue until everyone is listening to average pap.

Yep, again, I see what you mean. Isn't it possible though, that ad revenues could come from the manufacturers of the products that now feature in the mag in place of the hi-fi stuff? I totally agree that the mag could lose some of the 'enthusiast' readers though, which I guess could in turn lead to a watering down of the technical content. That definitely wouldn't be a good thing for me.

Surely as the most-read hifi magazine in the UK by quite some distance, and of course where their history lies, WHF has a certain responsibility to that wot made it!!!!.

Yup, definitely. But even with all the AV stuff that's in the mag, it's still my mag of choice for hi-fi reviews. I can't really think of any hi-fi products that WHF have missed because of dedicating more room to AV/MP3. That said though, I don't feel the reviews have as much info as articles from maybe 5-10 years back. I guess there isn't room to go into so much detail now, due to the amount of products in the marketplace.

 

[Clare Newsome]

EvilWolf:
WHF needs to get back to it's roots - 2 channel hi-fi. This is what made the magazine world famous. The 'Sound and Vision' bit that is a recent phenomena appears to have hijacked the magazine and we're now left with what it is today.

Maybe a solution to this would be to offer an option - one magazine to hifi buffs and the other to home cinema buffs. This way there's a clear differentiation and distinction between the two - a win-win situation to the subscribers and to WHF. Just make sure that both magazines are jam packed with the good stuff and leaves no room for complaints.

I must at this juncture draw a comparison with your sister (or is it brother?) publication, AUTOCAR, which I subscribe to as well. I get a magazine EVERY WEEK, and it's nothing short of fantastic! How do they do it then? Being under the same group, Haymarket, doesn't the same ethos apply to all the publications across the board?

Again, not a complaint but a constructive criticism. And, just my 2 pence worth!

The day the hi-fi/AV market is as big as the car market, and I can have a team the size of Autocar's, then we'll do a weekly! In the meantime, we're up here every day

 

[Andy Clough]

the record spot:Thanks for reading our gripes Clare - will there be any likelihood that the Buying Guide might include the much missed section on cartridges alongside the turntable section? Pretty integral to the whole vinyl replay scene and there's been a near glut of new cartridges this past 12 months or so. Okay, a good few anyway! It would be useful to cater for that too.

As it happens, we've built in a separate cartridges sub-channel within Accessories on the new website, so as soon as we've tested some, we'll pop them up there.

 

[the record spot]

rilliant news; thanks for the update Andy. Do you know if this is going to include a range of cartridges, or just the recent newcomers to the scene? I know the new Ortofon 2M and Goldring 2000 series carts have come out in the last year, but will the team dabble in the low end Nagaoka/Goldring/AT budget cartridges of yesteryear and the mid-range Goldring 1000 series / Audio Technica / Ortofon / Shure's et al too?

It'd be interesting to see how the new batch match up against the old stalwarts given the price differences in the £60-£120 bracket for the old and new ranges are minimal for each manufacturer (as in, the Goldring 1012 GX and the Ortofon 2M Blue are both around £100-£120 for instance).

 

[JoelSim]

bigblue235:
JoelSim:I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I understand the economics, but the current climate is still fairly new in that big tvs are still really in their infancy. Once digital is over and done with, WHF will be left with few loyals.

I get you, but I still feel that they'll retain people who maybe take the magazine for what it is currently, rather than what it used to be. I bought the mag for a few years then gave up on it 'til surround sound came out. I remember buying every mag available for reviews of the MS decoder1! The whole pro-logic thing got me hooked on the mag again. Then I kinda drifted away 'til I had a bit of spare cash so came back to see what was available. Stopped buying again 'tilÿthe mag became a great place for TV reviews. If WHF had stayed strictly 2-channel I'd have bought nowhere near as many copies.ÿ

The other side to this is the hifi manufacturers, who will see the hifi buffs migrating, and then they won't advertise as much and WHF will slowly become WSAV, the specialist and enthusiast readers will be gone (as will some of the hifi companies), and the vicious circle will continue until everyone is listening to average pap.

Yep, again, I see what you mean.ÿIsn't it possible though,ÿthat ad revenues could come from the manufacturers of the products that now feature in the mag in place of the hi-fi stuff?ÿI totally agree that the mag could lose some of the 'enthusiast' readers though, which I guess could in turnÿlead to a watering down of theÿtechnical content.ÿThat definitely wouldn't be a good thing for me.

Surely as the most-read hifi magazine in the UK by quite some distance, and of course where their history lies, WHF has a certain responsibility to that wot made it!!!!.

Yup, definitely. But even with all the AV stuff that's in the mag, it's stillÿmy mag of choice forÿhi-fi reviews. I can't really think ofÿany hi-fi products that WHF have missed because ofÿdedicating more room to AV/MP3. That said though,ÿIÿdon't feel the reviews have as muchÿinfo asÿarticlesÿfrom maybe 5-10 years back. I guess there isn't room to go into so much detail now,ÿdue to theÿamount of products in the marketplace.

ÿ

I think you're missing my point about the ad revenues. Most of the hifi manufacturers are small businesses who won't be able to justify spending at the rates when their actual customer numbers go down. The ad rates will stay the same if more TV people are buying, it's done on the total circulation/readership figures not the number of hifi target audience.

Without this magazine, the hifi market will shrink even further and those small businesses will have to find other ways of hitting their audience. Then the number of hif buffs will decrease further and so on.

There's only one result from this. Less hifi. ÿ

 

[Clare Newsome]

I'm very flattered you think we have that much influence, but other cultural, sociological and technical factors (hello games consoles, hello iPod, hello PVRs, hello DVD) have had far more influence on the lessening of 'pure' hi-fi's priority in a lot of people's lives. Simply put, there's a lot more things for people to spend their home entertainment budget on.

We still bring core hi-fi and its benefits to a far bigger audience - in magazine and online - than any of our competitors, and will continue to do so.

We'd never address such numbers, and communicate the continued excellence of dedicated stereo products, if we didn't also address the wider world of home entertainment.

 

[Anonymous]

Well said and I understand what you mean about branching out to a wider audience which many other mags have failed to do in my book. Am looking forward to the future improvements you have planned. keep it up. Time is money. Night ppl!

 

[professorhat]

Clare Newsome:We'd never address such numbers, and communicate the continued excellence of dedicated stereo products, if we didn't also address the wider world of home entertainment.

Indeed, I understand where you're coming from Joel, but you do need to look from the other side of the fence as well. Imagine someone buys WHF for the first time as they're thinking about buying a TV. They read the Supertest, do their own auditioning and then decide they agree with the reviewers and buy the TV and they're really happy. A few months down the line, they might think about buying an MP3 player and they remember that WHF did a review of some so they go have a look. Again, they find they trust WHF a little bit now, so they buy whichever MP3 player fits their needs according to WHF reviews and again they're happy. Soon, they may find they want to upgrade their mini system so they again look to WHF with ever increasing trust. Because of this, they might find they end up buying a separate CD player + amp and speakers because they've suddenly realised from WHF (especially if they've visited these forums) that this will give them a better sound...
So, over a year or so, you've potentially gone from someone who bought the magazine to choose a TV to someone who's now getting into the world of hi-fi as a result. I'm not saying this is going to happen loads, maybe one in a thousand, but those are pretty good figures I reckon from the casual buyer to the possible subscriber and it also means, as a result of the broad coverage, someone has gone from knowing nothing about hi-fi to starting their first tentative steps into it. It's just a thought...

 

[Andy Clough]

Thank you professorhat, couldn't have put it better myself!

 

[timwileman]

professorhat:Clare Newsome:We'd never address such numbers, and communicate the continued excellence of dedicated stereo products, if we didn't also address the wider world of home entertainment.

Indeed, I understand where you're coming from Joel, but you do need to look from the other side of the fence as well. Imagine someone buys WHF for the first time as they're thinking about buying a TV. They read the Supertest, do their own auditioning and then decide they agree with the reviewers and buy the TV and they're really happy. A few months down the line, they might think about buying an MP3 player and they remember that WHF did a review of some so they go have a look. Again, they find they trust WHF a little bit now, so they buy whichever MP3 player fits their needs according to WHF reviews and again they're happy. Soon, they may find they want to upgrade their mini system so they again look to WHF with ever increasing trust. Because of this, they might find they end up buying a separate CD player + amp and speakers because they've suddenly realised from WHF (especially if they've visited these forums) that this will give them a better sound...
So, over a year or so, you've potentially gone from someone who bought the magazine to choose a TV to someone who's now getting into the world of hi-fi as a result. I'm not saying this is going to happen loads, maybe one in a thousand, but those are pretty good figures I reckon from the casual buyer to the possible subscriber and it also means, as a result of the broad coverage, someone has gone from knowing nothing about hi-fi to starting their first tentative steps into it. It's just a thought...

errr....do i know you, thats exactly what i did! brought the mag to look at TV reviews....then thought ohh i need a PVR....then ohh i need to upgrade my music .... and now look at me !!!

 

[professorhat]

My theory works, it works!

 

[timwileman]

hmmm...thats a good excuse for my next purchase.....sorry darling prof hat made me do it using mind control

 

[Anonymous]

Some interesting and valid comments, and from a different perspective being from a different country most of the businesses that advertise in the mag here are higher end 2-channel guys, and I think we need to keep 2-channel hi-fi alive and get the mag more back to it's roots from the time when I first began to read it, it was more much more focused on Hi-Fi, there really is some great kit out there that never gets much mention, so for me I'd prefer more attention on the hifi again than looking a TVs sets.

 

[Ajani]

professorhat:Clare Newsome:We'd never address such numbers, and communicate the continued excellence of dedicated stereo products, if we didn't also address the wider world of home entertainment.
Indeed, I understand where you're coming from Joel, but you do need to look from the other side of the fence as well. Imagine someone buys WHF for the first time as they're thinking about buying a TV. They read the Supertest, do their own auditioning and then decide they agree with the reviewers and buy the TV and they're really happy. A few months down the line, they might think about buying an MP3 player and they remember that WHF did a review of some so they go have a look. Again, they find they trust WHF a little bit now, so they buy whichever MP3 player fits their needs according to WHF reviews and again they're happy. Soon, they may find they want to upgrade their mini system so they again look to WHF with ever increasing trust. Because of this, they might find they end up buying a separate CD player + amp and speakers because they've suddenly realised from WHF (especially if they've visited these forums) that this will give them a better sound...

So, over a year or so, you've potentially gone from someone who bought the magazine to choose a TV to someone who's now getting into the world of hi-fi as a result. I'm not saying this is going to happen loads, maybe one in a thousand, but those are pretty good figures I reckon from the casual buyer to the possible subscriber and it also means, as a result of the broad coverage, someone has gone from knowing nothing about hi-fi to starting their first tentative steps into it. It's just a thought...

Excellent point.... Part of the decline of HiFi (especially over here in the Americas) has been lack of visibility/advertising... Many people really have no idea that there is something beyong mini-systems and Bose.... WHF has the ability to reach those pesons as well as existing HiFi consumers in a way that competing 'HiFi only' mags can't.... I'd like to see WHF continue to embrace the entire audio/video spectrum, but still work on ways to appeal to both HiFi and non HiFi fans (tough job).....

 

[JoelSim]

Clare Newsome:
I'm very flattered you think we have that much influence, but other cultural, sociological and technical factors (hello games consoles, hello iPod, hello PVRs, hello DVD) have had far more influence on the lessening of 'pure' hi-fi's priority in a lot of people's lives. Simply put, there's a lot more things for people to spend their home entertainment budget on.

We still bring core hi-fi and its benefits to a far bigger audience - in magazine and online - than any of our competitors, and will continue to do so.

We'd never address such numbers, and communicate the continued excellence of dedicated stereo products, if we didn't also address the wider world of home entertainment.

ÿ

I don't disagree with the bigger pie to spend your readies on, but I think you are underestimating the power you hold with your ABC compared to the others Clare. I really would like to see you guys do more comparisons, more pushing the boundaries, more generating interest in 2 channel. Music is such an emotive force, and played through proper kit can be incredible. I'd be really upset to see all the specialists struggle - the WHAT brand is the only one that can cross the boundaries into the mainstream - not everyone can afford an Aston Martin but with more HF in your mag, more will be interested in getting a Lotus rather than settling with a Mondeo. And then 10 years down the line, we'll be seeing that Lotus and Aston are still playing.

By the way, I may be coming across as critical, that's not my objective - as above.ÿ