What is the weakest link?

[eliotn]

Hi all,

My current system:

KEF Q300

Marantz PM6004

CA DacMagic -> playing FLACs, AIFF, etc...

Cables: Chord Carnivals bi-wire

Room: 4x4m

Music: Jazz, Electro Jazz, Ambient, Lounge

Generally, I'm happy(ish) with the sound, but I know it can be imporved.

What, in your opinion would be the weakest link in the above system? Perhpas I should sell it all and start rom scratch?

I'm a person, who always tries to get the best value for money. Considering that the above system costs circa £1k, would I hear 100/200/300% improvment if I spent £2/3/4k.

I always look on different components thinking, if I should upgrade the current system. I looked at Speakers: ProAcs D18, PMC 23, Spendor A6 | Amps: Naim, Cyrrus, Roksan, etc | DACs: M-DAC.

What do you think?

 

[davejberry]

How could anyone define an improvement in percentage terms?

Any 'improvement' you envisage can surely only be defined as a difference in overall sound e.g. sounding warmer or more clinical, because of more treble, more bass, a wider sounstage, clearer vocals etc.

IMO, you must first define what you think is 'wrong' with the presentation and then ask for opinion on what kit could help to rectify that.

 

[eliotn]

Thanks davejberry.

This is the main issue.

How can I define what is 'wrong', if I dont have a template what is 'perfect'?

I think I've never auditioned what is referred by audophiles - the 'hifi reference system'.

Shall I take a couple of tracks I know very well and audition systems worth £100k+?

 

[Covenanter]

I can't do percentages either but I would look for better speakers.

Chris

 

[floyd droid]

I'm a person, who always tries to get the best value for money. Considering that the above system costs circa £1k, would I hear 100/200/300% improvment if I spent £2/3/4k.

Depends on your system matching abilities dunnit. Price dosnt have to come into it. I could easily lob a 4k system together that would sound absolutely dire. Sorry buddy but nobody can answer that % question for you. Its your ears and your room.

 

[eliotn]

Ok, lets drop the %.

Where or how can I audition a system, which is conisdered to be the hifi reference system?

I think this is the only way to move forward and improve my own system.

 

[Electro]

Thanks davejberry.

This is the main issue.

How can I define what is 'wrong', if I dont have a template what is 'perfect'?

I think I've never auditioned what is referred by audophiles - the 'hifi reference system'.

Shall I take a couple of tracks I know very well and audition systems worth £100k+?

If you need a reference go to Ronnie Scott's or similarly good venue when one of your favourite artists is performing and thoroughly enjoy yourself whilst making a concious note of how you feel.

Then listen to as many makes and types of HiFi equipment in different systems until you find a combination that gives you a similar feeling of musical pleasure to the live music that you heard at your venue of choice . :rockout:

This is what I have done an it has most definitely worked for me , but even if it does not work for you at least you have had a really good evening out .

 

[BenLaw]

There is no perfect system. Work out your budget, draw up a shortlist (as you seem to have done) and go and demo, demo, demo. Once you've found the best system, draw up another shortlist from any more ideas you might have had and then see if you can improve on your choice. Demo at home if at all possible.

 

[eliotn]

Electro very good advice, providing that I will remeber anything the following morning.

To be honest this is what I've been doing for the past 15 years. I've been chasing the feeling of being in front of the stage, while auditioning various kits. The only problem is that everybody has some budget to spend and it is hard to make a justified decision that the kit A (worth £5k) sounds sooo much better than kit B (woth £1k).

Unless, the kit A does give you that feeling of LIVE performance...

I think I need to audition more!!!

 

[eliotn]

There is no perfect system. Work out your budget, draw up a shortlist (as you seem to have done) and go and demo, demo, demo. Once you've found the best system, draw up another shortlist from any more ideas you might have had and then see if you can improve on your choice. Demo at home if at all possible.

Thanks BenLaw.

It sounds like the plan.

 

[floyd droid]

There is no perfect system. Work out your budget, draw up a shortlist (as you seem to have done) and go and demo, demo, demo. Once you've found the best system, draw up another shortlist from any more ideas you might have had and then see if you can improve on your choice. Demo at home if at all possible.

Top post. I bang on about the importance of this like a stuck record. Home demo is paramount.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the best place to start would be your source or sources. The best amp and speakers won't make a bad source sound better.

Most of my listening is by way of Flac files off a hard drive and the single component that made the most difference was the dac. Similarly if your medium of choice is vinyl or cd then look at quality decks and transports.

Demos are great if you can get them at home, but also be aware that the confusion of choice can lead to you going round in circles.

It takes time and experimentation to get the sound you want, at the budget you're happy with, that's part of the 'fun'. Good luck!

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Take your time to demo, to understand what you want, and then to demo again. Compare, compare and most importantly get to understand what is causing differences in sound. Choosing your next hifi is as interesting as enjoying it later, choose well to make sure it is enjoyable.

it took me 1.5 years to choose mine. Loved the process and very happy with the result.

speakers (and their interaction with room and amp) have the most effect on sound. Sources these days are far from being the weakest link. Be wise. Think it through.

 

[Covenanter]

speakers (and their interaction with room and amp) have the most effect on sound. Sources these days are far from being the weakest link. Be wise. Think it through.

Amen!

Chris

PS It seems to me that people on this forum spend far too little on speakers (and room treatments) and proportionately far too much on electronics.

 

[lindsayt]

Ok, lets drop the %.

Where or how can I audition a system, which is conisdered to be the hifi reference system?

I think this is the only way to move forward and improve my own system.

Scalford Hall, March every year. Please bear in mind the empty room acoustics and dining chair seating.

Or arrange your own bake-off. Or get together with a few hi-fi forum posters with interesting systems and go and visit them.

Personally I see scope for improvement of your source, amplification, speakers and room. The first 3 can be improved whilst keeping the spending below £1k.

 

[Overdose]

Hi all,

My current system:

KEF Q300

Marantz PM6004

CA DacMagic -> playing FLACs, AIFF, etc...

Cables: Chord Carnivals bi-wire

Room: 4x4m

Music: Jazz, Electro Jazz, Ambient, Lounge

Generally, I'm happy(ish) with the sound, but I know it can be imporved.

What, in your opinion would be the weakest link in the above system? Perhpas I should sell it all and start rom scratch?

I'm a person, who always tries to get the best value for money. Considering that the above system costs circa £1k, would I hear 100/200/300% improvment if I spent £2/3/4k.

I always look on different components thinking, if I should upgrade the current system. I looked at Speakers: ProAcs D18, PMC 23, Spendor A6 | Amps: Naim, Cyrrus, Roksan, etc | DACs: M-DAC.

What do you think?

The music?

 

[eliotn]

If there is no perfect system, shall I start from the room, speakers, amp or source to build the ultimate system?

How can I pick the right speakers without having the amp and vice verca?

Lets forget about the budget for a second.

Can someone explains please, how do you pick the first component in the system and how do you justify/measure your decsion?

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Surely we start from budget. Either immediate budget or future intention. It is then down to short listing and demo. I agree that speakers and room treatment limits the overall success of the 'project'.

 

[moon]

Thanks davejberry.

This is the main issue.

How can I define what is 'wrong', if I dont have a template what is 'perfect'?

I think I've never auditioned what is referred by audophiles - the 'hifi reference system'.

Shall I take a couple of tracks I know very well and audition systems worth £100k+?

If you need a reference go to Ronnie Scott's or similarly good venue when one of your favourite artists is performing and thoroughly enjoy yourself whilst making a concious note of how you feel.

Then listen to as many makes and types of HiFi equipment in different systems until you find a combination that gives you a similar feeling of musical pleasure to the live music that you heard at your venue of choice . :rockout:

This is what I have done an it has most definitely worked for me , but even if it does not work for you at least you have had a really good evening out .

nice 8)

 

[moon]

If there is no perfect system, shall I start from the room, speakers, amp or source to build the ultimate system?

How can I pick the right speakers without having the amp and vice verca?

Lets forget about the budget for a second.

Can someone explains please, how do you pick the first component in the system and how do you justify/measure your decsion?

look ... firstly you won't find perfection. Going down that road will lead to dissapointment.

Me I would start with making sure the room has lots of soft furnishings. Carpet, rugs, curtains etc. Then within your budget choose some well made speakers. If you need advice on this the ask. but the likes of PMC, Proac, Tannoy, Dynaudio, Neat would be a start. the rest is down to a good amp, and your source. Remember a great listening environment can do wonders for your musical enjoyment.

 

[CnoEvil]

This is such a subjective hobby, that you will get a lot of advice, half of which is conflicting and the other half, is people pushing what they have.

My advice is to try amps of different Classes (ie. A/B/AB/D/) and types (ie. Solid State/Valve/Hybrid).....IMO. If you just walk into a dealer and listen to a couple of the "usual suspects", you could end up losing out.

You have to truly understand the sound that you like......and the only way to do that, is to try a lot of different kit, as something can sound good, until you hear better.

Whereas amps can sound very different, speakers can sound hugely different.....and an understanding of how different brands sound, along with knowing what type of sound you like, is key to system matching .

FWIW. I have a very rough rule of thumb, which says that you have to double what you pay, to get a very worthwhile improvement...this is provided you selected the right kit in the first place, otherwise a sideways move, or even a downgrade, can bring an improvement ( due to personal preference).

 

[eliotn]

This is such a subjective hobby, that you will get a lot of advice, half of which is conflicting and the other half, is people pushing what they have.

My advice is to try amps of different Classes (ie. A/B/AB/D/) and types (ie. Solid State/Valve/Hybrid).....IMO. If you just walk into a dealer and listen to a couple of the "usual suspects", you could end up losing out.

You have to truly understand the sound that you like......and the only way to do that, is to try a lot of different kit, as something can sound good, until you hear better.

Whereas amps can sound very different, speakers can sound hugely different.....and an understanding of how different brands sound, along with knowing what type of sound you like, is key to system matching .

FWIW. I have a very rough rule of thumb, which says that you have to double what you pay, to get a very worthwhile improvement...this is provided you selected the right kit in the first place, otherwise a sideways move, or even a downgrade, can bring an improvement ( due to personal preference).

Perfect advice.

 

[CnoEvil]

Perfect advice.

I know.

If you ever want ideas, throw in a budget and you'll get some good suggestions.

 

[GCE]

I too have Mara pm 6004 and changed my 20 Y old speakers ( little tower on stand)

B&W DM 1800 with II hand B&W 603 S2:

It is a big improvements for me, more bass, sweet mids & highs and awesome spk design for 300 gb pounds!

Although what many people are saying, this amp can drive some big speakers

like and better than more expensive amps...

So I'll substitute yours little and imho bright-ish Kef with

someting more beefy...

 

[eliotn]

Thanks.

The plan is:

1. Replace DACMagic with a better DAC.

2. Bring £2k (my budget) speakers back home from different manuf. - PMC, Proac, Spendor, other suggestions...?

3. Pick "the best" speakers.

4. Replace the amp as tha last component in the system.