What amp for B&W 685 S2?

[berisen]

This is my first post here, i have browsed the forums for a long time though I think some of you guys could point me in the right direction, i'm about to go crazy choosing from all possible combination of amplifiers out there.

So, right now i got my B&W speakers connected to a Yamaha RX-V773 receiver and i'm not 100% happy about the 2 channel performance. I listened to a Cambridge CXA 60 connected to the same speakers today at a local hifi-store and there was quite a big differance compared to the Yamaha so from that i draw the conclusion that the V773 is not powerful enough. Also i dont think it's 2-channel performance is that good. A pure stereo amplifier could do this better i think?

Now i'm thinking of getting myself an amplifier that has both integrated DAC but also a HT-bypass input. The reason for this is that i really want to keep the possibility of using multi channel in the future. Right now i'm only using my two B&W's and a subwoofer.

I have narrowed it down to a few choices:

Hegel H80
Hegel H100
Atoll IN80 SE
Marantz PM7005
Pioneer A-70

Now, i need a little bit of help here. How much power do i need for these speakers? I have understood that it takes quite some power to get the most out of them, is this correct? In this case, it might be the Hegel H100 that's the best choice for me but i'm not sure.

If you have any other amps that you know of with DAC and HT-bypass and plenty of power, just shoot

 

[rainsoothe]

Hi - try to audition with your speakers if you can. Know nothing about the Atoll sound, so I won't comment on that. The Hegels and the Pioneer might be too bright for your speakers, while the Marantz might be too relaxed - that's why you should listen for yourself.

The Hegel H80 should be more then enough for your speakers, but if you like how the Hegel sounds, I would look at speakers like Kef R300, XTZ 96.26 mkII, Sonus Faber Toy Tower (floorstanders) or Focal Aria 906.

For the B&W 685 S2 I would seriously consider a used first gen Naim Nait XS + some dac (Behringer UCA202 if you only need USB, Micromega MyDac if you also need optical and/or coax), or, if USB is not needed or you don't mind using a USB to SPDIF converter cable, a used Naim Supernait (which has an integrated DAC).

But then again, you might love the Hegel + B&W partnering and not find it fatigueing whatsoever, so do try to audition for yourself. It's what you should do anyways, and enjoy the ride )

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

You might do well to check out some Arcam amps,and if you ain't afraid of going s/h,you can find arcams a85 at good prices.I second the opinion of a first Naim nait xs.I currently have one which I used for a month or so with b&w cm5's.quite a safe sound though and a but banine.I demd some 685 s2 with a friend(for him) not long ago with a Naim uniti and I was disappointed,I convinced him to try the cm1 s2 and they were in a different league.guess what he bought.cm's.I actually think the original 685 sounded better.

 

[stavvy]

For what is worth I have the original 685s hooked up to the pioneer a50. Sounds great to my ears. Although I'm tempted to save up for a rotel amp or I like the look of the classe sigma amp (both have the added benefit of being part of the b&w group so should partner well). Probably overkill for the 685s for sure, but sets you up when the upgrade bug kicks in in a few years. Saving up for a pair of cm10 s2

 

[berisen]

Thank you all for your input! I'm going to see if I can try any of them with my speakers.

Compared to my Yamaha V773, how would a Rotel RA-12 perform? Would the 2x 60W be sufficient? My Yamaha is supposed to have 95W output per channel but I'm not sure how it stands compared to a real 2 channel amp.

I have started to thinking of getting rid of the receiver completely and go for a total stereo setup instead. Then I don't need the HT bypass option and I might get some more options.

The Rotel RA-12 seems to be a good choice here, it's just the power I'm thinking about.

What I really want is an amplifier that really can deliver enough to fully power the 685s. Is 60-80W enough here?

 

[rainsoothe]

yes, it's enough. Just note that the RA12 doesn't have a USB capable DAC (the USB on the front is only for iPods and such), although it should sound better then your Yamaha. But the Hegels or Naim I suggested are in a completely different league. By the way, are you sure the RA12 has AV bypass? Because I think it doesn't, and neither does the RA 1570, which has a USB capable dac, and is a completely different beast.

If you decide to drop the HT functionality, look at the Rotel RA 1570, Arcam FMJ A19 + Micromega MyDac, Roksan K3 + Arcam iRdac and the Naim Nait XS I suggested in my previous post.

 

[rainsoothe]

Rega Elex R is also worth a look. And try the Hegel as well if you can.

 

[berisen]

yes, it's enough. Just note that the RA12 doesn't have a USB capable DAC (the USB on the front is only for iPods and such), although it should sound better then your Yamaha. But the Hegels or Naim I suggested are in a completely different league. By the way, are you sure the RA12 has AV bypass? Because I think it doesn't, and neither does the RA 1570, which has a USB capable dac, and is a completely different beast.

If you decide to drop the HT functionality, look at the Rotel RA 1570, Arcam FMJ A19 + Micromega MyDac, Roksan K3 + Arcam iRdac and the Naim Nait XS I suggested in my previous post.

If only I had a retailer that sold all of these so that I could try it out

I try to read as much as possible and make my decision that way, it's a little bit of taking a chance though. But in most cases, reviews gives quite a good overall impression. Let's hope it's enough

So, you're sayin that the Hegel H80 plays in a different league than the Rotel RA-12? Are they about the same in sound characteristics? The reason I'm asking is because Rotel are often told to be a very good fit with b&w speakers.

To be honest, the H80 does look like the winner to me. It's just the price tag that's a bit high so that's why I was thinking If the RA12 could to the job as well.

It's not easy. It's a mess out there with all brands and watts and specifications

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi berisen

Hegel's H100 was discontinued some time ago.

In the bass alone listen to the the H80's control with its grip, punch, depth and power and I think you'll realise why the H80 costs £1300 versus £600. Fwiw, a client using H80 based system says that he finds he is listening to H80 based system more despite having a DCS/Karan alternative in a dedicated listening room.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[rainsoothe]

Even if the H80 looks like a winner, don't buy without an audition. Yes, Rotel and B&W are a good match - I used to own RA1520 + B&W CM5 - but, whatever your budget, you should audition several amps at the price point of your choosing. I mean if you set your limit at 600 pounds or so, you must audition or consider at least Arcam FMJ A19, XTZ A100D3, or the Abrahamsen, Rega, Roksan offerings at this price point. Of course they will be outclassed by most stuff you can find for 1200 pounds, but 800-1000 pounds might be a good limit to set for amp+dac for the 685. I don't know, it's your call, that's why everyone says "audition audition audition"

You don't even have to liste to all the brands, just set a budget, make a shortlist with the stuff you can find at 2-3 dealers, tell them what your setup is (or preferably take your speakers to them), tell them your needs, let dealers make suggestions as well, then audition. It will be a nice experience, and you will definately figure out what price point you wanna settle on. And who knows, maybe find some stuff you'll prefer, like who knows, Marantz PM7005 or Croft Phono Integrated.

Speaking of which, some companies sell online with the possibility of return for full refund - Croft Phono Integrated and XTZ A100D3 can be bought with this option. The advantage is that you get to audition with your own setup, in your own home - and these two amps are real gems imo. Add the Micromega MyDac and you're set (the XTZ does have a dac, but no USB).

 

[7760]

Is 60-80W enough here?

What type of music do you listen to at what volume in a room of what size, and what's your source(s)?

 

[berisen]

Even if the H80 looks like a winner, don't buy without an audition. Yes, Rotel and B&W are a good match - I used to own RA1520 + B&W CM5 - but, whatever your budget, you should audition several amps at the price point of your choosing. I mean if you set your limit at 600 pounds or so, you must audition or consider at least Arcam FMJ A19, XTZ A100D3, or the Abrahamsen, Rega, Roksan offerings at this price point. Of course they will be outclassed by most stuff you can find for 1200 pounds, but 800-1000 pounds might be a good limit to set for amp+dac for the 685. I don't know, it's your call, that's why everyone says "audition audition audition"

You don't even have to liste to all the brands, just set a budget, make a shortlist with the stuff you can find at 2-3 dealers, tell them what your setup is (or preferably take your speakers to them), tell them your needs, let dealers make suggestions as well, then audition. It will be a nice experience, and you will definately figure out what price point you wanna settle on. And who knows, maybe find some stuff you'll prefer, like who knows, Marantz PM7005 or Croft Phono Integrated.

Speaking of which, some companies sell online with the possibility of return for full refund - Croft Phono Integrated and XTZ A100D3 can be bought with this option. The advantage is that you get to audition with your own setup, in your own home - and these two amps are real gems imo. Add the Micromega MyDac and you're set (the XTZ does have a dac, but no USB).

After some searching i have actually located a couple of stores "nearby" (within 1.5 hours drive). I'll try to contact them and see if they are willing to let me demo some of the mentioned amps with my 685 speakers. Hopefully there shouldn't be any issues.

My budget is a bit loose actually, i was aiming for something like 6-700 punds from the beginning but if the Hegel H80 (for example) is such a better choice performance-wise i might need to go up a bit. The H80 is around 920 pounds here in Sweden so it's quite ok.

Great suggestion about buying online and then returning, that's one option if none of the dealers nearby has got the amps that i'm looking for.

 

[berisen]

Is 60-80W enough here?

What type of music do you listen to at what volume in a room of what size, and what's your source(s)?

It's mainly indie rock but also some punk rock and metal. The size of the room is about 25m2 so it's a pretty small one. The source i'm playning from is mainly a Intel NUC where i play mostly spotify but also some "high quality" FLAC. It's connected via HDMI to the receiver now but in the future it will be connected with USB to a DAC (either integrated in the amp or a separate one).

The reason i'm asking is because it's hard to get a grip of how much power thats needed. The speakers say that their maximum input power is 100W and my Yamaha receiver is supposed to give 95W/ch but i doubt it since i have listened to the speakers with both a smaller Denon-amp and the Cambridge mentioned in the first post. The Hegel H80 is "only" 80W, what is it that makes it so much better then my Yamaha?

Stupid question maybe and i know that they are very much different from each other, but i was just comparing the actual Watt-number.

 

[rainsoothe]

don't worry about watts that much, it's more complex then that (I can't explain, but I know it is). Doubling the watts alone will only yield a 3 decibel increase in percieved volume, so a 200W amp will only sound 3 db louder then a 100W one , so on and so forth. Also, the rating on the speakers are more like a guideline. And I bet you a 50W/ch Naim will kick a 95W/ch Yamaha's behind.

As for your location, the 1.5 hour drive thing is ok if it's for you - you should do that first. That price for the Hegel is also pretty nice. Also, do not discount XTZ, it's a sweedish brand, and they have a two week return period when you order from their site, and return shipping might be free. XTZ match B&W quite nicely imo, and for the money it's one of the greatest bargains in hi-fi. It's big, runs hot and has no headphone output, but it does have a phono stage, a DAC (no usb), and the first 50watts it does in class A (you won't find class A current amplifiers anywhere near this pricepoint).

After auditioning at hi-fi stores, you should seriously look into the XTZ brand, especially since you're based in Sweden. You could also give them a phonecall or whatever to check if there are any dealers - but do try to audition the XTZ A100D3, it's amazing, goes well with B&W and really cheap for how it sounds.

Oh, and if it's not the case, the B&W should be on stands and at least 30 cm away from walls

 

[berisen]

Thank you! I will try to listen to as many amps as possible before making my choice. In those cases I cannot test it I need to read as much as possible

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Don't get to hung up on the watts thing.the b&w's are easy to drive at around 88-89 db into 8 ohms.it don't get much easier than that for an amp to drive.once you get down to 83 -87 db into 4,6 or even 8ohms then you need an amp with a lot of grip.not even so much big wattage (but it helps )but amps from the higher end...Naim,bryston,cyrus etc.But those b&w's will work with just about anything,but probably sound there best on an amp somewhere in the £500-£900 price range.A decent 50-60 watt stereo amp will have the yamaha any day.

 

[lpv]

Sweden? your neighbours from Finland makes some of the finnest active speakers and they're called Genelec. Make sure to visit some pro audio shop and ask for an audition of some speakers within your budget.. you'll maybe surprised what you can get for the money. Then add some dac/ pre amp of your choice and put your B&W back in the box.

 

[lpv]

http://youtu.be/3A4UMh1AOHw

here's a short video explaining differences between passive and active design.

 

[berisen]

Thank you all for all the help.
I took a chance and bought the Rotel RA-12, i found it used only 6 months old for 312 pounds so i just couldnt resist it

I can happliy say that i am very pleased with it, such an upgrade from my HT-receiver! The punch in the lower bassregions is in a whole different level but it's a lift in every aspect. Also one nice positivt effect that i wasnt expecting is that my XTZ 10" subwoofer is playing a lot better together with the system now. I'ts connected via the speaker inputs on the subwoofer and it's much more controlled now. Don't really understand how this is possible but i guees the signal from the amplifier is more controlled than before.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_1018223296]

Hi, myself I have been very happy last few months with my BW 685 S2 fed from my Marantz 6005... Dynamics, clarity, musicality... Great combination... I am also using Chord Electronics Hugo DAC, also very happy with it...

This is my first post here, i have browsed the forums for a long time though I think some of you guys could point me in the right direction, i'm about to go crazy choosing from all possible combination of amplifiers out there.

So, right now i got my B&W speakers connected to a Yamaha RX-V773 receiver and i'm not 100% happy about the 2 channel performance. I listened to a Cambridge CXA 60 connected to the same speakers today at a local hifi-store and there was quite a big differance compared to the Yamaha so from that i draw the conclusion that the V773 is not powerful enough. Also i dont think it's 2-channel performance is that good. A pure stereo amplifier could do this better i think?

Now i'm thinking of getting myself an amplifier that has both integrated DAC but also a HT-bypass input. The reason for this is that i really want to keep the possibility of using multi channel in the future. Right now i'm only using my two B&W's and a subwoofer.

I have narrowed it down to a few choices:

Hegel H80Hegel H100Atoll IN80 SE Marantz PM7005Pioneer A-70

Now, i need a little bit of help here. How much power do i need for these speakers? I have understood that it takes quite some power to get the most out of them, is this correct? In this case, it might be the Hegel H100 that's the best choice for me but i'm not sure.

If you have any other amps that you know of with DAC and HT-bypass and plenty of power, just shoot