ways of biwiring a pair of speakers

[admin_exported]

Is there any advantage (sound-wise) in
doing a biwired connection like this :

http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/402/esquemaprimero.jpg

rather than this :

http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/339/esquemasegundo.jpg

 

[RobinKidderminster]

bi amp vs biwire. yes. quite different

 

[MajorFubar]

Connecting them to different binding posts does not bi-amp them in most instances, unless you're talking certain amps like the Marantz '603.

Generally I'd go with the same set of binding posts, because sometimes when you select 'A+B' on your speaker-switch, additional circuitry is invoked to compensate for the fact that the amp is expecting to see two pairs of speakers in-circuit, not two different drivers in the same unit.

Your amp's instruction manual may tell you if you can bi-wire using both sets of posts, but normally I'd stick to using one set, for the reason I have explained.

 

[Crossie]

It would help if you tell us what amp you are using. You may then get a definitive answer...perhaps...maybe...err.

 

[BigH]

Thought bi-wiring was a waste of money?

 

[hoopsontoast]

Both Bi-Wiring and horizontal Bi-Amping 'should' not make any difference unless you are using different cables or different amplifiers.

Vertical Bi-Amping may well have an improvement.

YMMV.

 

[MajorFubar]

Think we just need a bit of clarity regarding what people are meaning by 'bi-amping'...

As I stated above, wiring two halves of the cross-over to different pairs of binding-posts on the same amp does NOT, in most instances, bi-amp the speakers.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Yes, Bi-Amping requires two seperate amplifiers:

and more here: http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize031998.htm

 

[BigColz]

Yes, Bi-Amping requires two seperate amplifiers:

and more here: http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize031998.htm

Hence the name :rofl: :cheers:

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Yes..... it does depend on how good your speakers and the amp being used is.

I wire my speakers as per diagram 1. One side driving 1 speaker - I.E side A ( of A & B) driving the left speaker tops and bass and B driving the right as per that config. It does sound better cleaner and more seperated but it depends on your amp and speakers - in my tests it sounds better than the other config - 2 runs from a single channel.

but if you have the cable try them for yourself and decide if you notice a difference and decide which is your preference.

note: it does not affet volume.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I have a couple of questions regarding the speakers in a bi-wire system. Forgive me if they've been asked before, but here goes:

Background:

In the old days back in England I used to use a Cyrus system with a Pre-X driving twin X-powers, in twin mono configuration, in turn driving a pair of ProAc Studio 140s. No problems. Great sound. No need to or thoughts of messign with it except to upgrade, in time, to full Mono-X power amps.

Now back in the US, my current speakers, Klipsch Reference 42 floorstanders - a Chrimbo pressie from the wife and part of the surround sound system - are bi-wired. Like most speakers these days with bi-wire terminals, they were shipped with brass or copper strip "shunts" to bridge the plus and minus terminals to each other (i.e. high plus to low plus, high minus to low minus) in case the purchaser didn't want to bi-wire. I did, so these shunts were taken off and put back in the boxes. The speakers are bi-wired to an Onkyo TX-NR717 7.1 receiver using the bi-amp capabilities of that receiver, i.e using the main left and right speaker outputs to drive the tweeters and the far-left and far-right (or high-front-left and high-front-right - I forget which) to drive the woofers.

Now the questions:

1. Given the bi-wire capable designs of such speakers, are there actually still crossovers inside the cabinets in most cases?

2. If the answer to1 is "yes" what is the point of bi-wiring anyway?

3. if the answer to 1 is "no" are the "shunts" I mentioned above the de facto crossovers and is this why speakers with such "shunts" often sound lousy unless they are bi-wired, or do they simply convey the same signal to the woofers and tweeters and let the woofers and tweeters sort out what they're going to respond to themselves?

4. If the answer to 1 is "yes" and I were crazy enough to decide to pull out the crossovers and junk them, wire the speakers directly to the terminals on the backs of the cabinets, should I wire each speaker "cone" (tweeter, woofer, and in many case mid-range) to each pair of speaker terminals or wire the tweeters only to the HF terminals, the woofers to the LF terminals? What do I do with the mid-range cones?

5. Given I was mad enough, or bored enough, to attempt 4, what should I use as speaker wire inside the cabinets? The same as I use from the amp to the speakers or something heavy duty, e.g. 12 or even 10-gauge multi-strand?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I have a couple of questions regarding the speakers in a bi-wire system. Forgive me if they've been asked before, but here goes:

Background:

In the old days back in England I used to use a Cyrus system with a Pre-X driving twin X-powers, in twin mono configuration, in turn driving a pair of ProAc Studio 140s. No problems. Great sound. No need to or thoughts of messign with it except to upgrade, in time, to full Mono-X power amps.

Now back in the US, my current speakers, Klipsch Reference 42 floorstanders - a Chrimbo pressie from the wife and part of the surround sound system - are bi-wired. Like most speakers these days with bi-wire terminals, they were shipped with brass or copper strip "shunts" to bridge the plus and minus terminals to each other (i.e. high plus to low plus, high minus to low minus) in case the purchaser didn't want to bi-wire. I did, so these shunts were taken off and put back in the boxes. The speakers are bi-wired to an Onkyo TX-NR717 7.1 receiver using the bi-amp capabilities of that receiver, i.e using the main left and right speaker outputs to drive the tweeters and the far-left and far-right (or high-front-left and high-front-right - I forget which) to drive the woofers.

Now the questions:

1. Given the bi-wire capable designs of such speakers, are there actually still crossovers inside the cabinets in most cases?

2. If the answer to1 is "yes" what is the point of bi-wiring anyway?

3. if the answer to 1 is "no" are the "shunts" I mentioned above the de facto crossovers and is this why speakers with such "shunts" often sound lousy unless they are bi-wired, or do they simply convey the same signal to the woofers and tweeters and let the woofers and tweeters sort out what they're going to respond to themselves?

4. If the answer to 1 is "yes" and I were crazy enough to decide to pull out the crossovers and junk them, wire the speakers directly to the terminals on the backs of the cabinets, should I wire each speaker "cone" (tweeter, woofer, and in many case mid-range) to each pair of speaker terminals or wire the tweeters only to the HF terminals, the woofers to the LF terminals? What do I do with the mid-range cones?

5. Given I was mad enough, or bored enough, to attempt 4, what should I use as speaker wire inside the cabinets? The same as I use from the amp to the speakers or something heavy duty, e.g. 12 or even 10-gauge multi-strand?

If you have taken off the "shunts" then you have bypassed the crossover - to prove this disconnect one set of terminals, you'll find only the connected speaker works - the cross over only comes into play when a single run of wire is used, you do not need to open the boxes.

if i read you right you have one set of outputs ( speaker A) controlling the tops and speaker B controlling the bass - this config I'm sure causes an imbalance in the amp output (now i could be wrong) but if you're driving both A & B the tweeters are less of a load than the mid bass driver and this could hurt your amp over time (like I said, I could be wrong) the other config is more 'balanced'

If you have 3 sets of binding post it'll mean you have a 3 way design, if you only have 2 then ethier the mids and bass or the mids and tops are connected by a crossover, in which case still wire as if dealing with two drivers......

 

[MeanandGreen]

I have a couple of questions regarding the speakers in a bi-wire system. Forgive me if they've been asked before, but here goes:

Background:

In the old days back in England I used to use a Cyrus system with a Pre-X driving twin X-powers, in twin mono configuration, in turn driving a pair of ProAc Studio 140s. No problems. Great sound. No need to or thoughts of messign with it except to upgrade, in time, to full Mono-X power amps.

Now back in the US, my current speakers, Klipsch Reference 42 floorstanders - a Chrimbo pressie from the wife and part of the surround sound system - are bi-wired. Like most speakers these days with bi-wire terminals, they were shipped with brass or copper strip "shunts" to bridge the plus and minus terminals to each other (i.e. high plus to low plus, high minus to low minus) in case the purchaser didn't want to bi-wire. I did, so these shunts were taken off and put back in the boxes. The speakers are bi-wired to an Onkyo TX-NR717 7.1 receiver using the bi-amp capabilities of that receiver, i.e using the main left and right speaker outputs to drive the tweeters and the far-left and far-right (or high-front-left and high-front-right - I forget which) to drive the woofers.

Now the questions:

1. Given the bi-wire capable designs of such speakers, are there actually still crossovers inside the cabinets in most cases?

2. If the answer to1 is "yes" what is the point of bi-wiring anyway?

3. if the answer to 1 is "no" are the "shunts" I mentioned above the de facto crossovers and is this why speakers with such "shunts" often sound lousy unless they are bi-wired, or do they simply convey the same signal to the woofers and tweeters and let the woofers and tweeters sort out what they're going to respond to themselves?

4. If the answer to 1 is "yes" and I were crazy enough to decide to pull out the crossovers and junk them, wire the speakers directly to the terminals on the backs of the cabinets, should I wire each speaker "cone" (tweeter, woofer, and in many case mid-range) to each pair of speaker terminals or wire the tweeters only to the HF terminals, the woofers to the LF terminals? What do I do with the mid-range cones?

5. Given I was mad enough, or bored enough, to attempt 4, what should I use as speaker wire inside the cabinets? The same as I use from the amp to the speakers or something heavy duty, e.g. 12 or even 10-gauge multi-strand?

Bi-wireable speakers do have crossovers in them, if you biwire or biamp full range frequencies are still being transmitted down both sets of cables. The crossover is basically a high pass and low pass filter wired to the corresponding drivers. I would NOT remove the crossovers you will end up with full range signals being fed to your drivers.

Removing the shorting links doesn't bypass the crossover. Each driver is wired back through it's own filter, then to the terminals on the back of the speaker cabinet. The links are to allow one cable run to be used. Which brings up the debate why bi-wire? Personally I see no be benefit of bi-wiring and noticed no improvement after doing so with my speakers. Bi-amping on the other hand is supposed to be a different story, though I can't speak from experience on that one.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

O.k I stand corrected .......

 

[BigH]

Yes they must have cross-overs even when bi-wired. You are correct about different power needed for woofer and tweeters. In active speakers the woofer amp is more powerful than for the tweeter. For example 250W for woofer and 75W for tweeter.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

The receiver is specifically designed to enable the fronts to be bi-amped as described (in the manual, not necessarily as I recount from memory above), so it shouldn't be a problem. If it becomes one, the warranty takes care of it.

Contrary to first thoughts, most people recommend using the higher power amplifier to drive the uppen half of the scale, as this actually uses more power overall. I was certainly told to do this while I was transiting from a single Cyrus 8-power to an 8-power plus an X-power then finally to twin mono-mode X-powers (not mono-Xs). Whether this is to do with the frequencies involved (as I was told) or just because the bass just makes the occasional "thump" so the average power consumption is lower, I don't know. All the outputs from my receiver are rated to the same power, however, so it's probably a moot ("mute" if it goes belly-up?) point. I've used the main fronts for the main front trebles and the second pair for the basses.

As for bi-amping vs. a bigger single stereo amp, the benefits are clear to hear. I'll let someone else get all testicle about why. From experience, I just know it sounds best in "vertical" bi-amped mode.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that the 2 wiring schemes I provided on my first message are electrically equivalent, and the workload on the amplifier should be the same, but I am not sure of the latter. In my case, I use a Marantz PM 7004 amplifier connected to a pair of Bowers & Wilkins DM 602 S3 loudspeakers.

My question was whether is better to use 2 pairs of single cables or 1 pair of biwired cables. My diagrams show both configurations.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Your choice, the "which speaker cable is best" debate uses up more bandwidth around here alone than the entire internet p*rn industry!

On a practical level, if you use two pairs of 2-channel speaker cables, as opposed to one pair of 4-channel cables, its much easier to hook them up to two separate power amps in the "vertical" mode. Or you can do like I did, use something like Chord Odyssey 4 4-channel speaker cables to start off with (one core each for HF+, HF-, LF+, LF-), then add a second pair of the same cables, re-terminate each with 2 channels per end plug (i.e. 2 to HF+, 2 to HF- in one cable, 2 to LF+, 2 to LF- in the other cable). Expensive, maybe, but audio-wise it worked superbly, especially with the "thin" bass of Cyrus gear.

As for your diagrams, I too am of the opinion that bi-wring alone won't do much one way or the other, but vertical bi-amping (i,.e. one twin mono power amp per channel) is the way to go unless you can afford four full single-channel power amps...

 

[Crossie]

Yes 4 mono's are the way to go!

If you have two different amps eg. 8 power and X power then horzontally bi amp with the X power on the HF as this is where the detail is and you need to use the best amp there to maximise the SQ.

IMHO bi-wiring makes little difference.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Sold the lot before I moved back to the US, money needed for the move and a concern that although I could buy a 110 volt to 230 volt stepup transformer easily enough, someone here (most likely a teenager) would try and plug the units directly into the US mains. Also concerned about 60 Hz supply would affect the sound and longevity of the 50 Hz transformers (probably not much). Hoping to replace the lot this year with the latest Cyrus incarnations as I really like the Cyrus detailed sound, providing the speakers I use have plenty of "oomph" to compensate for the somewhat lean bass.

Anyway, I had a look at the OP's kit on line and my advice is to forget about bi-wiring unless or until he can chain in a separate power amp. His amp has "A" and "B" speaker outputs but these are intended for separate pairs of speakers, not bi-amping one pair. Trying to bi-amp with this amp will probably blow the amp sooner or later. The speakers can be bi-wired, however. My advice would be to spend the money on better single-wire cables for now and to get a local hifi dealer to make up some jumper cables out of the same speaker cables as the main runs to replace the cheap and nasty brass or copper jumpers that come with the speakers. If / when he gets a power amp, he can add a second run of the same cables to horizontally bi-amp the speakers, using the higher power amp to drive the trebles. If he can add a second power amp later, and assuming these will work as twin monos, he can then vertically bi-amp the speakers.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Sold the lot before I moved back to the US, money needed for the move and a concern that although I could buy a 110 volt to 230 volt stepup transformer easily enough, someone here (most likely a teenager) would try and plug the units directly into the US mains. Also concerned about 60 Hz supply would affect the sound and longevity of the 50 Hz transformers (probably not much). Hoping to replace the lot this year with the latest Cyrus incarnations as I really like the Cyrus detailed sound, providing the speakers I use have plenty of "oomph" to compensate for the somewhat lean bass.

Anyway, I had a look at the OP's kit on line and my advice is to forget about bi-wiring unless or until he can chain in a separate power amp. His amp has "A" and "B" speaker outputs but these are intended for separate pairs of speakers, not bi-amping one pair. Trying to bi-amp with this amp will probably blow the amp sooner or later. The speakers can be bi-wired, however. My advice would be to spend the money on better single-wire cables for now and to get a local hifi dealer to make up some jumper cables out of the same speaker cables as the main runs to replace the cheap and nasty brass or copper jumpers that come with the speakers. If / when he gets a power amp, he can add a second run of the same cables to horizontally bi-amp the speakers, using the higher power amp to drive the trebles. If he can add a second power amp later, and assuming these will work as twin monos, he can then vertically bi-amp the speakers.

Connecting his speakers to the A and B outputs will make no difference to bi-wiring. The A+B outputs are simply paralel outputs from the same two amplifier modules (left and right channel)

From a PM7004 you will get no benefit over loosing money by buying double the amount of cable.

Bi-Amping gives no electrical benefit if you are using two of the same seperate amplifiers, unless the amplifier is poorly designed and cant cope with the impedance/phase angles of the speaker. Using two of the same amps wont help this.

In simple terms, If your amp is rated at 50wpc, and you have two in bi-amp, you will still only get a maximum of 50w. You dont get 100w of potential output.

Some people use two different amplifiers (as mentioned) for treble and mid-bass, this may bring a difference but it wont be correct as the amplifiers will have slightly different gain, frequency response, output impedance etc so you will be hearing the difference between two amplifiers rather than anything 'better'.

You would be better off just using one 'better' amplifier or going down the DIY route and making the speakers active to gain any real possible improvement.

 

[shafesk]

Is there any advantage (sound-wise) in doing a biwired connection like this :

http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/402/esquemaprimero.jpg

rather than this :

http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/339/esquemasegundo.jpg

Like others have correctly pointed out, one is biwiring and the other is biamping....if biamping is done on the same amp, it often sounds worse....ideally biamping should involve two amps. To be honest, the best result I have gotten is not by biwiring....instead I used speaker wire to replace the speaker links....no one who has tried it has said that it makes no difference. On the other hand, people have biwired and half of them don't hear any noticeable improvement.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Is there any advantage (sound-wise) in doing a biwired connection like this :

http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/402/esquemaprimero.jpg

rather than this :

http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/339/esquemasegundo.jpg

/quote] if biamping is done on the same amp, it often sounds worse....ideally biamping should involve two amps.

If you don't have two ampos it isn't bi-amping, it's bi-wiring...

To be honest, the best result I have gotten is not by biwiring....instead I used speaker wire to replace the speaker links....no one who has tried it has said that it makes no difference. On the other hand, people have biwired and half of them don't hear any noticeable improvement.

Agree on that one.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Connecting his speakers to the A and B outputs will make no difference to bi-wiring. The A+B outputs are simply paralel outputs from the same two amplifier modules (left and right channel)

From a PM7004 you will get no benefit over loosing money by buying double the amount of cable.

Bi-Amping gives no electrical benefit if you are using two of the same seperate amplifiers, unless the amplifier is poorly designed and cant cope with the impedance/phase angles of the speaker. Using two of the same amps wont help this.

In simple terms, If your amp is rated at 50wpc, and you have two in bi-amp, you will still only get a maximum of 50w. You dont get 100w of potential output.

Some people use two different amplifiers (as mentioned) for treble and mid-bass, this may bring a difference but it wont be correct as the amplifiers will have slightly different gain, frequency response, output impedance etc so you will be hearing the difference between two amplifiers rather than anything 'better'.

You would be better off just using one 'better' amplifier or going down the DIY route and making the speakers active to gain any real possible improvement.

Not sure about the first part of your post, I'll bow to your knowledge on the subject. I'd just be wary of sonnecting both sets of terminals to one pair of speakers in case the crossovers or whatever somehow shorted the circuit or caused the impedence to halve (or worse) putting too much current drain on the power amp.

I'd stick with my recommendation for the OP to put the money into one pair of better paired (not quad) cables and use the same cable to have his dealer make up some links to replace the horrible little brass links that come with the speakers, or make them himself using spade connectors or "piggy-back" banana plugs easily obtained on line.

As for bi-amping, I can say from mye experience with the Cyrus kit I used it clearly gave the system a HUGE boost, not just in out and out volume, but also in the dynamics (the capacity of the bass amp being mostly reserved for big "oomph" moments, for example) and clarity. I'm sure the higher quality (in the engineering sense) of the components going into higher end stuff like Cyrus means that two X-powers (or the equivalent from other higher-end manufacturers, take your pick) would be pretty darn close to identical electronically. With the Mono-Xs I believe these are made in batches to order, so they should be as close as possible, given budgets, engineering realities, etc. etc. to identical as they can be, and I'm sure even more expensive kit gets even more attention during internal component selection and matching.

Not saying you'd get the same result with something from equipment at the budget end, mind you - rubbsh + rubbish = 2* rubbish after all.

 

[ksoundwerx]

Interesting stuff gents.