Vinatage gear help for a newbie - Quiet sound output from new setup

[CaptChungD]

I am hoping that some here could please help out a newbie here. I’ve recently eBay purchased some vintage gear to replicate what my brother used to have in the late 90s - Denon PMA 100M amplifier, Technics CD and Turntable. I also got some book shelf speakers ( Mission DM7 speakers) only very recently, which I hooked up to the amp using 14 gauge cables. All equipment advertised as working from good rated sellers.

The problem is the sound I got was very quiet, even with the increased volume - no bass detected - just the faint top ranges but barely audible. I checked the wiring and connections to see if I connected +/- wrongly, which I’m certain I have not. Even swapped different CD players on hand and then the turntable. I can say that I suspect either or a combination of amp, wrong gauge wiring(?) or speakers. The Mission DM7 speakers are at 8ohms at Frequency response 70Hz to 20kHz, recommending an amp at 50w. I’ve been told by Youtube channels that a powerful amp can run speakers at a lower wattage so I thought I the amp would be ok with these speakers. As for the connection from amp to speakers, I think would be A+B for 8ohm configuration (one coloured wire into the top port (Row A) and the other into a bottom port(Row B)) - I hope I have read that diagram correctly on the back. I’ve tried all wires connected to corresponding lower row B ports but the same sound came out.

Other than that swapping out both speakers are creating the same small sound regardless and I’m not ruling out faults in the amp or speakers at this point.

Thank you, forum members for any pointers or advice. D

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

I would say either the amp or the speakers are defective.
Do you have other amp or speakers to try and test?

 

[camcroft]

I am hoping that some here could please help out a newbie here. I’ve recently eBay purchased some vintage gear to replicate what my brother used to have in the late 90s - Denon PMA 100M amplifier, Technics CD and Turntable. I also got some book shelf speakers ( Mission DM7 speakers) only very recently, which I hooked up to the amp using 14 gauge cables. All equipment advertised as working from good rated sellers.

The problem is the sound I got was very quiet, even with the increased volume - no bass detected - just the faint top ranges but barely audible. I checked the wiring and connections to see if I connected +/- wrongly, which I’m certain I have not. Even swapped different CD players on hand and then the turntable. I can say that I suspect either or a combination of amp, wrong gauge wiring(?) or speakers. The Mission DM7 speakers are at 8ohms at Frequency response 70Hz to 20kHz, recommending an amp at 50w. I’ve been told by Youtube channels that a powerful amp can run speakers at a lower wattage so I thought I the amp would be ok with these speakers. As for the connection from amp to speakers, I think would be A+B for 8ohm configuration (one coloured wire into the top port (Row A) and the other into a bottom port(Row B)) - I hope I have read that diagram correctly on the back. I’ve tried all wires connected to corresponding lower row B ports but the same sound came out.

Other than that swapping out both speakers are creating the same small sound regardless and I’m not ruling out faults in the amp or speakers at this point.

Thank you, forum members for any pointers or advice. D

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View attachment 8502

I think your problem is that the amplifier hasn't got a phono stage so the sound cannot be amplified to the correct level hence the low volume output. You would need to get an external phono stage if I am correct.

 

[CaptChungD]

Ah, so not so much my setting up or reading of the impedance specs you feel. I don't have another set of speakers or an amp. If I had a choice, I would point more to amp but I guess both speakers could have blown out.

 

[Din5]

As far as I can see, the top 4 speaker terminals will constitute output "A", and the bottom 4 terminals will be "B".
So try connecting all of your 4 speaker wires to the top row, observing the correct + and - connections. If your source is functioning correctly and assuming your speakers are ok, then you should have full sound. If not, then I think the amplifier has a fault.

 

[CaptChungD]

I think your problem is that the amplifier hasn't got a phono stage so the sound cannot be amplified to the correct level hence the low volume output. You would need to get an external phono stage if I am correct.

Oh, like a Preamp setup. I shall look into that. Thanks

 

[camcroft]

Ah, so not so much my setting up or reading of the impedance specs you feel. I don't have another set of speakers or an amp. If I had a choice, I would point more to amp but I guess both speakers could have blown out.

If you have got some headphones try to play a CD through the amp and if it sounds a more fuller sound I still suspect that the turntable's sound is not being amplified. An amplifier needs to have a phono stage built in for it to work properly with a turntable.

 

[camcroft]

Oh, like a Preamp setup. I shall look into that. Thanks

Where are you based?

 

[CaptChungD]

Where are you based?

Cheers, I'm based in West London

 

[camcroft]

Cheers, I'm based in West London

You can find an external phono stage on Amazon for £23 and that would work plugged into an AUX input.Did you try the headphone way. Here is a link.

Amazon.co.uk : behringer pp400 phono pre-amp

 

[Din5]

As Camcroft says above, it looks like your amp does not have a phono input, so a record deck won't work unless you connect a phono preamp to it.
However, you say that you have tried other cd players, which should be good, so I guess the fault is with the amp...

 

[CaptChungD]

Thank you all for the advice. I am going to try out a few options and tests over the weekend and see where I stand on this equipment. Much appreciated!👍👍👍

 

[ianrjones]

When you decide to upgrade, keep the (working) kit. So that will make it easy to fault check in future.

 

[Gray]

If I had a choice, I would point more to amp but I guess both speakers could have blown out.

Unlikely to be any problem with the speakers - not least because a reputable seller has advised you that all was working.
Maybe he meant that each individual component was working 🤔
Because, as others have pointed out, a turntable requires a phono preamp....that seller couldn't have had a properly working vinyl playing system, without a phono preamp.
The Technics turntable hasn't got a preamp built in, has it?
(Tell us the model and we'll advise).

In your process of elimination, one of the things you can be 100% certain of, is that the issue has got nothing to do with the gauge of your speaker cable 👍.....

 

[good_enough]

As you say you have tried CD player too, it is not simply that you lack a phono input (though you will need one for a turntable).

You might try the following (apologies if you have tried already):

The CD will play in either the 'CD', 'AUX' or 'Tape PB' ports, all of which will be expecting a 4 to 5mV 'line' signal - trying in each will eliminate a fault with any specific input.

Speakers should either be both in the A or both in the B terminals, as pointed out above. Red to red, black to black.

If your cables are terminated, take off the plugs, and jam through the holes in the speaker terminal posts that will be revealed when you unscrew the caps some way, then tighten up - these holes are specifically for 'wire only' connections (speaker end too, not just the amp). This will eliminate poor joints in the cable.

 

[Gray]

The CD will play in either the 'CD', 'AUX' or 'Tape PB' ports, all of which will be expecting a 4 to 5mV 'line' signal

You meant 4 to 5 hundred millivolts 👍

(Of course they may currently only be getting a figure of 4 or 5mV, direct from the cartridge 🤔).

 

[good_enough]

You meant 4 to 5 hundred millivolts 👍

(Of course they may currently only be getting a figure of 4 or 5mV, direct from the cartridge 🤔).

Ah what's a few c's between friends?

 

[Fandango Andy]

I think would be A+B for 8ohm configuration (one coloured wire into the top port (Row A) and the other into a bottom port(Row B)) - I hope I have read that diagram correctly on the back. I’ve tried all wires connected to corresponding lower row B ports but the same sound came out.

Not sure if this has been solved. If not, you have misunderstood the speaker wiring.
The A+B and A or B is so you can have two sets of speakers running of the same amp. You should have A and B buttons on the front.

I can't see from the image if it tells you which is A or B. If not let's assume A is top. Just connect your cables to the top set of binding posts and ignore the bottom for now. Then use the button on the front to select A speakers. If that doesn't work try B. And if that doesn't work something somewhere is faulty.

 

[CaptChungD]

Hi forum members,

Thank you for all the help so far. Most generous of you guys and appreciate your time to help out a newbie.

I was fortunate enough to spot another well-looked-after Denon amp (Denon PMA-510AE this time) for sale over the weekend so I bought it and just receievd that today. I now have an amp with headphone socket (to test sound) and Phono sockets which should eliminate the need for a pre-amp.

Firstly, I tested sound coming from headphones (from the new amp) for both my cd player and turntable and sound was strong and 'normal' imo. I have been using the Technics Sl-J110D turntable and SL-PG200A cd player.

Now for the speakers...I did as said which was to connect the speakers to row A on the amps I had. WIth the PMA-510AE the sound was more louder , however, it still sounded quiet coming from the speakers (I can best describe the sound quality like trying to listen to the music coming out of headphones without wearing them on).

With that in mind, the speakers could be the suspected fault here.

Hope that update makes sense. Thanks guys again.

 

[Gray]

With that in mind, the speakers could be the suspected fault here.

Is it your Mission speakers that you're using?
Are there 4 terminals on each cabinet?
Are the metal bridging links in place?

I owned and sold a pair of Mission (700) speakers to a mate.
After several more years of him owning them, the mid/ bass drivers' cone surrounds had crumbled to dust.
I think it's worth you checking the condition of yours.

 

[CaptChungD]

The Mission DM7 speakers I'm using for these tests.
I've provided the image of the back of the Denon PMA-510AE. The only difference to my previous amp is that they don't allow the banana plug wiring set-up. I just stick in the bare wiring and screw tightly as before.
I'm not sure if I can use the metal bridging links on this amp terminals.

 

[Gray]

The Mission DM7 speakers I'm using for these tests.
I've provided the image of the back of the Denon PMA-510AE. The only difference to my previous amp is that they don't allow the banana plug wiring set-up. I just stick in the bare wiring and screw tightly as before.
I'm not sure if I can use the metal bridging links on this amp terminals.

No, the links I referred to were the ones fitted to speakers with 4 terminals (on each cabinet).

You're correct to be wiring to the 4 amp terminals in the A row of your amp.
(And they will accept banana plugs once you remove the plastic inserts from the terminals).

The fact that you've now tried 2 amps - and have got normal sound on headphones, does indeed point to an issue with your speakers.
Do the cones and their surrounds look in good condition?
Do your speakers actually have 2 or 4 terminals on each cabinet?
(Strangely, Google images show 2 AND 4 in photos labelled DM7 🤔).

 

[CaptChungD]

No, the links I referred to were the ones fitted to speakers with 4 terminals (on each cabinet).

You're correct to be wiring to the 4 amp terminals in the A row of your amp.
(And they will accept banana plugs once you remove the plastic inserts from the terminals).

The fact that you've now tried 2 amps - and have got normal sound on headphones, does indeed point to an issue with your speakers.
Do the cones and their surrounds look in good condition?
Do your speakers actually have 2 or 4 terminals on each cabinet?
(Strangely, Google images show 2 AND 4 in photos labelled DM7 🤔).

Ah, I think I see what you are referring to - on the DM7s (both speakers) there are only two- one red and one black terminal ports rather than 4.

The cones look good - no crippling or dents, however, I must point out there's something heavy shaking inside one of them. I'm not sure if that's supposed to be like that with Mission speakers but having tried both speakers on one channel, there was no major difference in the lack of sound quality. I'd like to assume that if something did fall off inside, one speaker would not be working at all.

Thanks 👍