(I'm not going to get into the THX hardware story here, we'll be here all day, and this post is long enough as it is.)
In surround amplifiers, receivers and processors, THX modes offer a series of post-processing modes designed to generate a more cinematic presentation for home cinema listening.
THX processing can be applied to the original sound encoded on the disc, or to the audio being generated by your surround amplifier's onboard processing. So - to be clear - you can opt to engage a THX mode with a discrete 5.1 soundtrack (for example) or to apply it to a processed Dolby Pro-Logic signal (again, for example).
And what will you get? The original form of THX post-processing offered three key features. First, re-equalization is applied, which attempts to tame down the high-frequency edge that some soundtracks can have. This was developed because, particularly in the early days of home cinema, films were often mixed solely to suit the cinematic environment (large spaces, high SPLs and speakers positioned behind a cinema screen). It might not be so necessary today: the choice is yours.
Another facet is 'timbre-matching': basically, this attempts to tonally match your rear speakers to your front speakers. In home cinema's infancy, it was quite common to use different makes of speaker at the front and rear of your room, often because a user was upgrading from stereo to surround sound. Again, it might not be so necessary in the modern world, as most home cinema buyers tend to buy all their speakers at the same time from the same manufacturer, which helps ensure a better tonal match.
A third element is 'de-correlation', which employs phase shift to provide better atmosphere and less sound localization with Dolby Surround-encoded material (mono rear speaker audio: imagine that!). As we moved into a discrete 5.1 world, the system changed to become 'adaptive' de-correlation: even today, surround engineers don't always use each rear channel discretely (for example, when an ambient effect like rainfall is called for), at which point adaptive de-correlation kicks in, providing a more spacious sound than conventional surround modes.
You don't require THX-engineered software to use THX processing. When used, the THX badges on software refer to mastering standards - they guarantee the quality of the video transfer and audio encoding, and don't imply the presence of any specific audio encoded on to the disc.ÿ
However, in the very earliest days of Dolby Digital Surround EX audio (as it was then called), a digital 'flag' was inserted into the data stream on each soundtrack that would activate a THX Surround EX mode where available. Again, to be clear: the soundtrack on the disc is a Dolby soundtrack, not a THX one. However, the technology was developed as a co-operative project between Lucasfilm THX and Dolby, with the then Creative Director for Skywalker Sound, Gary Rydstrom, in charge. That's why THX Surround EX was the first application to emerge, with the Dolby-badged version of the same thing appearing later.ÿ
(There's more, but I'd imagine this is enough to be going on with.)
In surround amplifiers, receivers and processors, THX modes offer a series of post-processing modes designed to generate a more cinematic presentation for home cinema listening.
THX processing can be applied to the original sound encoded on the disc, or to the audio being generated by your surround amplifier's onboard processing. So - to be clear - you can opt to engage a THX mode with a discrete 5.1 soundtrack (for example) or to apply it to a processed Dolby Pro-Logic signal (again, for example).
And what will you get? The original form of THX post-processing offered three key features. First, re-equalization is applied, which attempts to tame down the high-frequency edge that some soundtracks can have. This was developed because, particularly in the early days of home cinema, films were often mixed solely to suit the cinematic environment (large spaces, high SPLs and speakers positioned behind a cinema screen). It might not be so necessary today: the choice is yours.
Another facet is 'timbre-matching': basically, this attempts to tonally match your rear speakers to your front speakers. In home cinema's infancy, it was quite common to use different makes of speaker at the front and rear of your room, often because a user was upgrading from stereo to surround sound. Again, it might not be so necessary in the modern world, as most home cinema buyers tend to buy all their speakers at the same time from the same manufacturer, which helps ensure a better tonal match.
A third element is 'de-correlation', which employs phase shift to provide better atmosphere and less sound localization with Dolby Surround-encoded material (mono rear speaker audio: imagine that!). As we moved into a discrete 5.1 world, the system changed to become 'adaptive' de-correlation: even today, surround engineers don't always use each rear channel discretely (for example, when an ambient effect like rainfall is called for), at which point adaptive de-correlation kicks in, providing a more spacious sound than conventional surround modes.
You don't require THX-engineered software to use THX processing. When used, the THX badges on software refer to mastering standards - they guarantee the quality of the video transfer and audio encoding, and don't imply the presence of any specific audio encoded on to the disc.ÿ
However, in the very earliest days of Dolby Digital Surround EX audio (as it was then called), a digital 'flag' was inserted into the data stream on each soundtrack that would activate a THX Surround EX mode where available. Again, to be clear: the soundtrack on the disc is a Dolby soundtrack, not a THX one. However, the technology was developed as a co-operative project between Lucasfilm THX and Dolby, with the then Creative Director for Skywalker Sound, Gary Rydstrom, in charge. That's why THX Surround EX was the first application to emerge, with the Dolby-badged version of the same thing appearing later.ÿ
(There's more, but I'd imagine this is enough to be going on with.)
Andy Kerr: However, in the very earliest days of Dolby Digital Surround EX audio (as it was then called), a digital 'flag' was inserted into the data stream on each soundtrack that would activate a THX Surround EX mode where available. Again, to be clear: the soundtrack on the disc is a Dolby soundtrack, not a THX one. However, the technology was developed as a co-operative project between Lucasfilm THX and Dolby, with the then Creative Director for Skywalker Sound, Gary Rydstrom, in charge. That's why THX Surround EX was the first application to emerge, with the Dolby-badged version of the same thing appearing later.
Thank you, good night!
Thank you, good night!
Sliced Bread
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- Jul 28, 2010
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Andy Kerr:
(I'm not going to get into the THX hardware story here, we'll be here all day, and this post is long enough as it is.)
In surround amplifiers, receivers and processors, THX modes offer a series of post-processing modes designed to generate a more cinematic presentation for home cinema listening.
THX processing can be applied to the original sound encoded on the disc, or to the audio being generated by your surround amplifier's onboard processing. So - to be clear - you can opt to engage a THX mode with a discrete 5.1 soundtrack (for example) or to apply it to a processed Dolby Pro-Logic signal (again, for example).
And what will you get? The original form of THX post-processing offered three key features. First, re-equalization is applied, which attempts to tame down the high-frequency edge that some soundtracks can have. This was developed because, particularly in the early days of home cinema, films were often mixed solely to suit the cinematic environment (large spaces, high SPLs and speakers positioned behind a cinema screen). It might not be so necessary today: the choice is yours.
Another facet is 'timbre-matching': basically, this attempts to tonally match your rear speakers to your front speakers. In home cinema's infancy, it was quite common to use different makes of speaker at the front and rear of your room, often because a user was upgrading from stereo to surround sound. Again, it might not be so necessary in the modern world, as most home cinema buyers tend to buy all their speakers at the same time from the same manufacturer, which helps ensure a better tonal match.
A third element is 'de-correlation', which employs phase shift to provide better atmosphere and less sound localization with Dolby Surround-encoded material (mono rear speaker audio: imagine that!). As we moved into a discrete 5.1 world, the system changed to become 'adaptive' de-correlation: even today, surround engineers don't always use each rear channel discretely (for example, when an ambient effect like rainfall is called for), at which point adaptive de-correlation kicks in, providing a more spacious sound than conventional surround modes.
You don't require THX-engineered software to use THX processing. When used, the THX badges on software refer to mastering standards - they guarantee the quality of the video transfer and audio encoding, and don't imply the presence of any specific audio encoded on to the disc.ÿ
However, in the very earliest days of Dolby Digital Surround EX audio (as it was then called), a digital 'flag' was inserted into the data stream on each soundtrack that would activate a THX Surround EX mode where available. Again, to be clear: the soundtrack on the disc is a Dolby soundtrack, not a THX one. However, the technology was developed as a co-operative project between Lucasfilm THX and Dolby, with the then Creative Director for Skywalker Sound, Gary Rydstrom, in charge. That's why THX Surround EX was the first application to emerge, with the Dolby-badged version of the same thing appearing later.ÿ
(There's more, but I'd imagine this is enough to be going on with.)
Hey Andy,
So to clarify are you saying that while there is an overlap between DD-EX and THX modes they are not the same thing as there is more to it than that?
I assume that the timbre matching is what produces the improved sound field?
Thanks
(I'm not going to get into the THX hardware story here, we'll be here all day, and this post is long enough as it is.)
In surround amplifiers, receivers and processors, THX modes offer a series of post-processing modes designed to generate a more cinematic presentation for home cinema listening.
THX processing can be applied to the original sound encoded on the disc, or to the audio being generated by your surround amplifier's onboard processing. So - to be clear - you can opt to engage a THX mode with a discrete 5.1 soundtrack (for example) or to apply it to a processed Dolby Pro-Logic signal (again, for example).
And what will you get? The original form of THX post-processing offered three key features. First, re-equalization is applied, which attempts to tame down the high-frequency edge that some soundtracks can have. This was developed because, particularly in the early days of home cinema, films were often mixed solely to suit the cinematic environment (large spaces, high SPLs and speakers positioned behind a cinema screen). It might not be so necessary today: the choice is yours.
Another facet is 'timbre-matching': basically, this attempts to tonally match your rear speakers to your front speakers. In home cinema's infancy, it was quite common to use different makes of speaker at the front and rear of your room, often because a user was upgrading from stereo to surround sound. Again, it might not be so necessary in the modern world, as most home cinema buyers tend to buy all their speakers at the same time from the same manufacturer, which helps ensure a better tonal match.
A third element is 'de-correlation', which employs phase shift to provide better atmosphere and less sound localization with Dolby Surround-encoded material (mono rear speaker audio: imagine that!). As we moved into a discrete 5.1 world, the system changed to become 'adaptive' de-correlation: even today, surround engineers don't always use each rear channel discretely (for example, when an ambient effect like rainfall is called for), at which point adaptive de-correlation kicks in, providing a more spacious sound than conventional surround modes.
You don't require THX-engineered software to use THX processing. When used, the THX badges on software refer to mastering standards - they guarantee the quality of the video transfer and audio encoding, and don't imply the presence of any specific audio encoded on to the disc.ÿ
However, in the very earliest days of Dolby Digital Surround EX audio (as it was then called), a digital 'flag' was inserted into the data stream on each soundtrack that would activate a THX Surround EX mode where available. Again, to be clear: the soundtrack on the disc is a Dolby soundtrack, not a THX one. However, the technology was developed as a co-operative project between Lucasfilm THX and Dolby, with the then Creative Director for Skywalker Sound, Gary Rydstrom, in charge. That's why THX Surround EX was the first application to emerge, with the Dolby-badged version of the same thing appearing later.ÿ
(There's more, but I'd imagine this is enough to be going on with.)
Hey Andy,
So to clarify are you saying that while there is an overlap between DD-EX and THX modes they are not the same thing as there is more to it than that?
I assume that the timbre matching is what produces the improved sound field?
Thanks
Hi JN
Yes, that's exactly it. If we compare Dolby Digital EX (to use the more recent nomenclature) and THX Surround EX as decoding/processing modes, the THX variant incorporates features not found in the Dolby mode, most notably re-equalization. However, you're correct that both modes are designed to deliver 'extended-surround' listening, with either six or seven speakers and either one or two surround-rear speakers (THX recommends using two).ÿ
The improved soundfield is a factor of both de-correlation (adaptively applied when used with a discrete 5.1 soundtrack) and timbre matching. De-correlation is essentially a sonic trick: it's designed to make it harder for your ears to localize a sound in the room. That's a fundamental part of the THX mantra - it's also why THX loudspeakers use dipolar design for rear effects. You're supposed to be immersed in the surround experience, not distracted by it.
ÿ
ÿ
Yes, that's exactly it. If we compare Dolby Digital EX (to use the more recent nomenclature) and THX Surround EX as decoding/processing modes, the THX variant incorporates features not found in the Dolby mode, most notably re-equalization. However, you're correct that both modes are designed to deliver 'extended-surround' listening, with either six or seven speakers and either one or two surround-rear speakers (THX recommends using two).ÿ
The improved soundfield is a factor of both de-correlation (adaptively applied when used with a discrete 5.1 soundtrack) and timbre matching. De-correlation is essentially a sonic trick: it's designed to make it harder for your ears to localize a sound in the room. That's a fundamental part of the THX mantra - it's also why THX loudspeakers use dipolar design for rear effects. You're supposed to be immersed in the surround experience, not distracted by it.
ÿ
ÿ
Sliced Bread
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Thanks Andy.
The de-correlation your referring to certainly works, I find that when I switch the THX mode on the speakers are a little harder to localise.
Take care
The de-correlation your referring to certainly works, I find that when I switch the THX mode on the speakers are a little harder to localise.
Take care
Andy Kerr: That's a fundamental part of the THX mantra - it's also why THX loudspeakers use dipolar design for rear effects. You're supposed to be immersed in the surround experience, not distracted by it.
Is that for all four surround channels (side and rear)? I've got a pair of dipole surrounds that I'm probably going to incorporate into whatever 5.1 package I end up getting, so would they be better off used as the side surrounds or the rears?
I noticed on THX's website that they recommend if you have two rear surround speakers that you actually place them right next to each, rather than spacing them apart, which I found... interesting.
Is that for all four surround channels (side and rear)? I've got a pair of dipole surrounds that I'm probably going to incorporate into whatever 5.1 package I end up getting, so would they be better off used as the side surrounds or the rears?
I noticed on THX's website that they recommend if you have two rear surround speakers that you actually place them right next to each, rather than spacing them apart, which I found... interesting.
Indeed, with seven-speaker systems, the THX recommendation is to position dipoles at the sides, and more conventional directional speakers at the back. That's how most THX Ultra 2 speaker packages are configured, too.
However, that was a stipulation put forward in the days of 6.1 and matrixed-surround audio as found on DVD, rather than the (admittedly rare) true 7.1 audio now available on Blu-ray. If that's your listening intent (and I'd assume it is) then I think a more conventional ITU layout for the centre-rear speakers will work better (ie with the two speakers spaced apart). It's what we use.
Incidentally, I've seen set-ups where all four rear speakers are dipoles: so long as they're correctly positioned (phase-wise), it works. If, however, you're going with just the one pair, I'd put them alongside you in the classic THX arrangement.ÿ
However, that was a stipulation put forward in the days of 6.1 and matrixed-surround audio as found on DVD, rather than the (admittedly rare) true 7.1 audio now available on Blu-ray. If that's your listening intent (and I'd assume it is) then I think a more conventional ITU layout for the centre-rear speakers will work better (ie with the two speakers spaced apart). It's what we use.
Incidentally, I've seen set-ups where all four rear speakers are dipoles: so long as they're correctly positioned (phase-wise), it works. If, however, you're going with just the one pair, I'd put them alongside you in the classic THX arrangement.ÿ
jase fox:So Andy would you recommend using the THX modes then? Like THX surround EX instead of Digital EX for e.g ?Is there a better benefit to the sound by using them?
I think it really depends on your preferences and your system. In the past, I've been a strong advocate for THX modes, but times change. Many modern receivers incorporate their own equalization as part of their automatic calibration procedures: certainly, anything with Audyssey onboard is doing some if not all of the work of the basic THX re-eq and timbre-matching processes (no surprise given that Tom Holman, the father of THX, was also heavily involved in the foundation of Audyssey).
So essentially, I'd say suck it and see. If the movie you're listening to sounds too bright, switch to a THX mode: it'll tame some of that hard edge.ÿA THX mode should also help spread the surround soundfield out a little more, and knit it into the front-speaker audio just a little more cohesively. But equally, in a well-set-up system with good speakers (and particularly in a system where Audyssey is already active) it may not make much of a difference at all, and it could even - again, depending on movie and speakers - result in a sound that's a shade too dull for some listeners' tastes.ÿ
I think it really depends on your preferences and your system. In the past, I've been a strong advocate for THX modes, but times change. Many modern receivers incorporate their own equalization as part of their automatic calibration procedures: certainly, anything with Audyssey onboard is doing some if not all of the work of the basic THX re-eq and timbre-matching processes (no surprise given that Tom Holman, the father of THX, was also heavily involved in the foundation of Audyssey).
So essentially, I'd say suck it and see. If the movie you're listening to sounds too bright, switch to a THX mode: it'll tame some of that hard edge.ÿA THX mode should also help spread the surround soundfield out a little more, and knit it into the front-speaker audio just a little more cohesively. But equally, in a well-set-up system with good speakers (and particularly in a system where Audyssey is already active) it may not make much of a difference at all, and it could even - again, depending on movie and speakers - result in a sound that's a shade too dull for some listeners' tastes.ÿ
Andy Kerr:
jase fox:So Andy would you recommend using the THX modes then? Like THX surround EX instead of Digital EX for e.g ?Is there a better benefit to the sound by using them?
I think it really depends on your preferences and your system. In the past, I've been a strong advocate for THX modes, but times change. Many modern receivers incorporate their own equalization as part of their automatic calibration procedures: certainly, anything with Audyssey onboard is doing some if not all of the work of the basic THX re-eq and timbre-matching processes (no surprise given that Tom Holman, the father of THX, was also heavily involved in the foundation of Audyssey).
So essentially, I'd say suck it and see. If the movie you're listening to sounds too bright, switch to a THX mode: it'll tame some of that hard edge.ÿA THX mode should also help spread the surround soundfield out a little more, and knit it into the front-speaker audio just a little more cohesively. But equally, in a well-set-up system with good speakers (and particularly in a system where Audyssey is already active) it may not make much of a difference at all, and it could even - again, depending on movie and speakers - result in a sound that's a shade too dull for some listeners' tastes.ÿ
I guess its the same with everything really & thats try these things out for yourself as you say some systems can benefit some not.
Last night i did an extensive test with certain bluray movies, flicking between standard EX & THX EX i tried "flyboys" which has some cracking DTS master audio especially during the aerial fight scenes & i found that by engaging the THX mode it did seem to take something away from it, it almost sounded like it dampened the sound, not to a major extent but dampened all the same, when i then disengaged the THX mode it sounded more dynamic, so like you say Andy itll depend on the system in question. Maybe brighter systems would benefit more with this but certainly not mine.
Shame really as i did like to see my amp display show the words "THX CINEMA" ha
jase fox:So Andy would you recommend using the THX modes then? Like THX surround EX instead of Digital EX for e.g ?Is there a better benefit to the sound by using them?
I think it really depends on your preferences and your system. In the past, I've been a strong advocate for THX modes, but times change. Many modern receivers incorporate their own equalization as part of their automatic calibration procedures: certainly, anything with Audyssey onboard is doing some if not all of the work of the basic THX re-eq and timbre-matching processes (no surprise given that Tom Holman, the father of THX, was also heavily involved in the foundation of Audyssey).
So essentially, I'd say suck it and see. If the movie you're listening to sounds too bright, switch to a THX mode: it'll tame some of that hard edge.ÿA THX mode should also help spread the surround soundfield out a little more, and knit it into the front-speaker audio just a little more cohesively. But equally, in a well-set-up system with good speakers (and particularly in a system where Audyssey is already active) it may not make much of a difference at all, and it could even - again, depending on movie and speakers - result in a sound that's a shade too dull for some listeners' tastes.ÿ
I guess its the same with everything really & thats try these things out for yourself as you say some systems can benefit some not.
Last night i did an extensive test with certain bluray movies, flicking between standard EX & THX EX i tried "flyboys" which has some cracking DTS master audio especially during the aerial fight scenes & i found that by engaging the THX mode it did seem to take something away from it, it almost sounded like it dampened the sound, not to a major extent but dampened all the same, when i then disengaged the THX mode it sounded more dynamic, so like you say Andy itll depend on the system in question. Maybe brighter systems would benefit more with this but certainly not mine.
Shame really as i did like to see my amp display show the words "THX CINEMA" ha
Sliced Bread
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jase fox:Last night i did an extensive test with certain bluray movies, flicking between standard EX & THX EX i tried "flyboys" which has some cracking DTS master audio especially during the aerial fight scenes & i found that by engaging the THX mode it did seem to take something away from it, it almost sounded like it dampened the sound, not to a major extent but dampened all the same, when i then disengaged the THX mode it sounded more dynamic, so like you say Andy itll depend on the system in question. Maybe brighter systems would benefit more with this but certainly not mine.
Shame really as i did like to see my amp display show the words "THX CINEMA" ha
I find that at low volumes the re-EQ can sound a little dull, but at high volumes sounds much more cinematic and less ear piercing (system dependant). In fact at high volumes I find that I can hear more of the higher frequencies as they are more controlled, so I tend to keep the THX mode on with re-EQ de-activated at lower volumes and turn the re-EQ on when the neighbours are out and I'm pushing the volume 🙂
Just my tastes & system though.
Shame really as i did like to see my amp display show the words "THX CINEMA" ha
I find that at low volumes the re-EQ can sound a little dull, but at high volumes sounds much more cinematic and less ear piercing (system dependant). In fact at high volumes I find that I can hear more of the higher frequencies as they are more controlled, so I tend to keep the THX mode on with re-EQ de-activated at lower volumes and turn the re-EQ on when the neighbours are out and I'm pushing the volume 🙂
Just my tastes & system though.
jase fox:I guess its the same with everything really & thats try these things out for yourself as you say some systems can benefit some not.Last night i did an extensive test with certain bluray movies, flicking between standard EX & THX EX i tried "flyboys" which has some cracking DTS master audio
I'd be more interested to see if there's much difference with a DVD with Dolby Digital Surround EX on it or not.
I'd be more interested to see if there's much difference with a DVD with Dolby Digital Surround EX on it or not.
JohnNewman:jase fox:Last night i did an extensive test with certain bluray movies, flicking between standard EX & THX EX i tried "flyboys" which has some cracking DTS master audio especially during the aerial fight scenes & i found that by engaging the THX mode it did seem to take something away from it, it almost sounded like it dampened the sound, not to a major extent but dampened all the same, when i then disengaged the THX mode it sounded more dynamic, so like you say Andy itll depend on the system in question. Maybe brighter systems would benefit more with this but certainly not mine.
Shame really as i did like to see my amp display show the words "THX CINEMA" ha
I find that at low volumes the re-EQ can sound a little dull, but at high volumes sounds much more cinematic and less ear piercing (system dependant). In fact at high volumes I find that I can hear more of the higher frequencies as they are more controlled, so I tend to keep the THX mode on with re-EQ de-activated at lower volumes and turn the re-EQ on when the neighbours are out and I'm pushing the volume 🙂
Just my tastes & system though.Dont get me wrong John it still sounded great with THX enabled but it certainly felt something had been taken way from the soundtrack even at high volumes.
I have a Pioneer amp were as you have an onkyo, unless theres something different in the processing between the two?
Shame really as i did like to see my amp display show the words "THX CINEMA" ha
I find that at low volumes the re-EQ can sound a little dull, but at high volumes sounds much more cinematic and less ear piercing (system dependant). In fact at high volumes I find that I can hear more of the higher frequencies as they are more controlled, so I tend to keep the THX mode on with re-EQ de-activated at lower volumes and turn the re-EQ on when the neighbours are out and I'm pushing the volume 🙂
Just my tastes & system though.Dont get me wrong John it still sounded great with THX enabled but it certainly felt something had been taken way from the soundtrack even at high volumes.
I have a Pioneer amp were as you have an onkyo, unless theres something different in the processing between the two?
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