Upgrading from DM602`s

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Hello all,

Just started building my hi-fi system. Current system is:

Rotel Rsp1690 Av PreAmp, Rotel RMB1075 (120@8ohmsX5), B&W 602`s, B&W cc6 centre, B&W as6 sub, Sony CD/DVD player DVP-ns718h (cheap, bought temporarily as i had no cash to buy high end stuff, Will be used in my second room for DVD viewing), Nordost wyrewizard interconnects, Dynaudio Stand 3.

What I like in my system: Detailed/analitical sound,good midrange (compared to my old kenwood mosfet intergrared amp). The dm602`s sounded so different on my old kenwood.. They sounded more warm, but much less detailed.

What I dislike: Too bright for my taste, Bass is sometimes non existant in certain recordings.. They sound too flat, as if they lack bass , and the midrange is pronounced. Sometimes the treble from the 602`s in fatiguing.. How can I explain myself... they sound too digital instead of sounding analogue/fat/smooth.

The first thing that I must upgrade without doubt should be the DVD player. I have budget of between 1000max. I was thinking of the new rotel rcd-1520, cambridge audio azur 840c, or even something from the second hand market, even though I prefer to buy a new cd player.

As for speakers I was thinking of Dynaudio Focus 140, together with a 2 channel amplifier/or 2 monoblocks for HiFi listening. For a power amp I dont mind buying a good second hand amp, something like Krell, Bryston but still prefer to buy new stuff. Budget around 1200 sterlings.

What Cd palyer and power amp would you choose for the Rotel preamp and dynaudio focus 140`s so that the sound is smooth but at the same time detailed and not overly bright.

Thanks,

Kevin.

 

[ear]

after reading what you dislike about them , I guess you could be happy with the diamonds 10.1

 

[Anonymous]

ear:

after reading what you dislike about them , I guess you could be happy with the diamonds 10.1

I consider that a downgrade!

 

[Anonymous]

get a demo set of van den hul interconnects and van den hul speaker cable ... try that before spending loads to upgrade ...

but first move your speakers closer to the wall or further away then post your results here on this forum

 

[Craig M.]

what size room are you using your kit in? i used to have the focus 110 and they need quite a bit of space around them to avoid the bass getting out of hand, think at least 50cm behind and maybe even more from side walls. if you have the space then they will definitely thank you for partnering with an amp that has plenty of power (think current rather than watts). i think i would pair them with an integrated stereo amp though, as i'm not convinced av kit will provide the best stereo sound. i've not heard your pre amp, so it's difficult for me to offer any really useful advise as to what power amp or cdp will offer what you want, although an arcam cd37 sounds very smooth with good bass control. if you are willing to consider an integrated, i thought the roksan caspian cdp and primare i30 went very well with the 110's and should be upto it with the 140's as well, should be available well within budget on e-bay if you wait for them to turn up on there. plenty of people reckon krell or cyrus mono power amps go well with dynaudio as well, although not heard myself.

my 110's also responded very well to a hefty, mass loaded pair of speaker stands - made a huge difference from the lightweight mission stance stands i had before.

 

[Anonymous]

Dim_Span; I will move the speakers away from walls, and see what are the results with different speakers positioning. Unfortunately, it is not possible to buy on trail basis here where i live in malta, it sux!

Craig the room is 10m by 4.5m by 2.8m height, but this is a kitchen/living, and i only use 40% of the room , so thats around 3.5mX4.5mX2.8M. I should also fill the stands with sand and see the outcome

 

[Anonymous]

WOW...What a difference! I moved the speakers further front , out from both side and rear walls.. an amazing difference. The speakers are now 75cm away from rear and 80cm from side walls.

At least now I can hear, bass, midrange and tweeters seperatly. Bass and midrange are very good now, treble extension is a little less balanced (less audible than the others).
What could be the cause and how can I improve it?

 

[Anonymous]

The last segment of this video may be helpful:

http://whathifi.com/Video/Get-the-best-from-your-hi-fi/Vidcasts/

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your help Byte.

What do you think of the proac response d2 versus the dynaudio focus 140? I`ve auditioned the b&w CM9, proac studio 140`s, spendor a6 all connected to a rotel amp a few months ago, while I was in the U.K. I liked the Proac studio 140 best, but now I have changed my mind and I`m in search of a good quality stand mount instead.

What shall i expect differently from my current speakers (B&W DM602) with the dynaudio or proac? I`m looking for a detailed and a well balanced speaker, being neutral , maybe a little bit on the warm side, but with good dynamics and a tight bass

Thanks once again!

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone uses Dynaudio Focus 140 or Proac Response d2?

 

[Anonymous]

?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Weird - I'd never class the 602's as bass light. Saying that, I also wouldn't say they have a very pronounced midrange. The Mark III's had a tighter bass which gave some people the impression of less bass, but this couldn't be said of the Mark I and II versions. Rotel equipmet, to me, is fairly neutral (maybe a tad on the brighter side of neutral), but usually show any speaker up for exactly what they are, and I don't mean that in a nasty way. The B&W's, to me, were very HF and LF orientated, with not a great deal in the middle.

If you want to replace them with similar speakers, take a look at more recent B&W's, Dynaudio and PMC - all produce large amounts of bass, none of which you should find lacking. After hearing the Dynaudio DM2/7's in a demo comparison yesterday, I came to the conclusion they are the new 602 - huge amounts of bass!!

Other than my recommendations above which are similar in presentation to what you have, I'm at a loss as to what else to recommened, as many other manufacturer have a better midrange performance - just don't listen to ATC! Saying that, do have a listen to ATC, and if you dn't like them, then I'll be spot on

As for amps, try the 909 or 909 monoblocs - they about as smooth as you'll get, plenty of power, and not paticularly expensive. The only downside for you is that they have one of the midrange of almost any amp up to it's price point, and maybe a little beyond too. It's very prominent, and makes MF power amps sound like they have no midrange at all, which isn't too far from the truth! If you need a smooth CD player, try the Rega's. A good quality CD player will leave DVD/Bluray player standing in a good hi-fi system.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the detailed reply, David. After repositioning the speakers, I attained much more bass, unbelivable. Although a little bit on the harsh side ,highs have improved too, by a little tow in. I agree with you that the dm602s are LF, HF oriented.

David, i`m not trying to replace what I already have, I`m trying to improve on what I have. I would like a more a balanced and detailed midrange , good punch and a deailed but not harsh high. I was thinkig of three speaker ... The Dynaudio Focus 140, Proac Response D2 and the ATC SCM19. How do each speaker differ and whic is likely to blend with my rotel rsp1690 preamp?

As for a power amp, I dont mind not using a rotel,it`s important that the amp matches the speakers . I need a power amp with a good midrange performance, as I think that midrange is the most lacking party in my system. I didt understand what you said about the 909 amp, do you mean it has a pronounced mid range or not? What do you mean by MF powe amps? (musical fidelity??).

Thanks in advance,

Kevin.

 

[Craig M.]

i've only heard a little of the dyn 140 (i owned the 110), but imo, the scm19 is a far superior speaker. the mid will sound much more prominent compared to the focus which can sound like it has nothing but bass in comparison. the 19's are much more even, no part of the frequency range seems to dominate the sound, and they are more detailed. they are also a lot easier to position with regard to the walls in your room, if you stick them nearer the wall the bass will be boosted but it won't get out of hand like the dyn's will. haven't heard the proacs, so can't offer an opinion on those, also no idea what your amp sounds like. if the atc's didn't sound good on it though, i would lay the blame with the amp as the atc's are extremely neutral.

edit: taking this from one of your previous posts " I`m looking for a detailed and a well balanced speaker, being
neutral , maybe a little bit on the warm side, but with good dynamics
and a tight bass " apart from the warmth bit, thats how the atc's sound to me. i think the atc's are too neutral to call warm, although as i said, you can boost the bass by putting them close to a rear wall. the bass from them is fantastic, being even, detailed, and tight.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Craig, very informative.

The dynaudio is out of question then. Dont want to buy a speaker heavy on the low end side. I already have a subwoofer to take care of that... So it`s down to the Proac d2 and the SCM19. What i`m afraid in the SCM19 is that it might be on the bright side or very lean? I wish i could demo this speaker before I commit to buy, but in my country there is no ATC dealer .

 

[Craig M.]

hi, i don't think the atc is bright or lean. if it sounded that way in your system, i would think it had more to do with your components. when i first got mine i wondered if they were a little lean, but it was only because i was going from dynaudio speakers. a quick play of some chemical brothers soon convinced me there was more then enough bass! the atc's are the closest i have heard to a speaker having no sound of it's own, if the music you are playing is bass light, that's how they will sound, if the music is bass heavy, again, that's how they will sound. as i said, i haven't heard the proacs so wouldn't rule them out, but for me the only speaker i could see me changing mine for would be the scm40's.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Craig,

I didnt hear the SCM19 yet, I was telling you this because I read it in another forum. What power amp do you recommand for the scm19?

Regards.

 

[Craig M.]

hmm, as you said you wouldn't mind a bit of warmth, maybe something that leans a little in that direction? i haven't heard a vast amount of amps so wouldn't feel comfortable recommending an amp for you. i do know rick@musicraft uses a fairly cheap nad amp to demo atc speakers, so maybe one of theirs would suit, but i think you would be better off waiting for someone else to chip in with suggestions. is it possible to demo amps where you live? it might be worth you getting the speakers and then demoing amps until you find something that suits. if you can find some scm19's 2nd hand, then i would definitely go for it, as you could sell them on perhaps without loss if you found they weren't what you were looking for.

 

[Anonymous]

I dont mind, if they`re a little on the warm side. Nad, have the Nad C275 power amp, maybe that`s a good mach. I`ll wait for others to answer.

Cheers

 

[Frank Harvey]

daspaceman: David, i`m not trying to replace what I already have, I`m trying to improve on what I have. I would like a more a balanced and detailed midrange , good punch and a deailed but not harsh high. I was thinkig of three speaker ... The Dynaudio Focus 140, Proac Response D2 and the ATC SCM19. How do each speaker differ and whic is likely to blend with my rotel rsp1690 preamp?The speakers I mentioned would be an improvement on what you have. What I meant was that these speakers have a similar tonal balance to your 602's, but will be generally more refined and detailed. Matching with the pre-amp in't a problem, it's the power amplifier that's going to be important.

I need a power amp with a good midrange performance, as I think that midrange is the most lacking party in my system. I didt understand what you said about the 909 amp, do you mean it has a pronounced mid range or not? What do you mean by MF powe amps? (musical fidelity??).Compared to other power amplifiers it's midrange sounds pronounced. Compare musical Fidelity against Quad, and you hear that the MF has immense lower bass, which usually is a little uncontrolled. It's HF is also extended, and comes across as a little bright in the wrong system. Because of the exaggerated requency extremes, the midrange takes a back seat The opposite can be said of Quad. It's bass won't reach as low, and may sound a little lighter, but sounds tighter and more agile as a result. Higher freqnecies too are more subdued, giving a smoother more listenable treble. Because the frequency extremes are not overbearing, the midrange stands out more. This helps close mic'd vocal tracks on the 909 to be a far more realistic experience than almost any other power amplifier in it's price range.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Craig M.:edit: taking this from one of your previous posts " I`m looking for a detailed and a well balanced speaker, being neutral , maybe a little bit on the warm side, but with good dynamics and a tight bass " apart from the warmth bit, thats how the atc's sound to me. i think the atc's are too neutral to call warm, although as i said, you can boost the bass by putting them close to a rear wall. the bass from them is fantastic, being even, detailed, and tight. I agree with your description of the SCM11's, and that they would suit what the OP is asking for. A word of caution though. Many people who have settled into the sound of a particular speaker will usually instantly dismiss a drastically different sounding alternative.

My advice to daspaceman would be to hear the SCM1's, but have a long listen to them. I'll once again mention that they need the right amplifier. Many don't believe me, but integrated amps under £1,000 just don't get the best from them - a demo I did on Saturday proved that.

 

[Anonymous]

David, thanks for you answer. So the Quads pronounce the midrange more.. while musical fidelity amps tent to pronounce the HF&LF more. So, what do you consider, as a balanced/neutral sounding power amp which goes and drives the SCM19 speakers well?

Cheers from Malta

 

[Anonymous]

David??

 

[Frank Harvey]

Sorry, it's been extremely busy today! I got on when I could, but didn't notice this thread.

If we take neutral as a central point, with the Quad's on the smoother side of that central point, the Arcam's would sit between the two. Rotel tend to be on the brighter side of neutral, but closer to neutral than the Arcams (I hope this is making sense!). I've not, as yet, heard the digital Rotel power amplifiers, so I can't comment on where they fall in. I'd probably go between the Rotels (RC1550/RB1582) and the Quad (99/909) - I think either one of those should suit you. If not, try the Arcam, or even the Rega's which have a touch of, well, Rega about them! I know it's pushing the price up a little, but the Naim 152x/155x is worth trying with the SCM's - is one of the best matches we've found so far (Naim and ATC I mean, rather than that particular amp combination.)

 

[Anonymous]

great david! it makes a lot sense now< understood you hundred percent

Will fly to the uk for a demo of the scm19 and the above mentioned amps. Is 100-120 w/channel enough for the scm19? I was thinking of maybe 200-250 rms/channel, or that would be an overkill? I`m ready to buy second hand/ex display amps too.

The other speaker i`m interested in is the proac response response d2. Have you got ideas of which amps go well with this speaker? What are your experiences with this speaker? and how does it differ from the scm19??

I`m very grateful for your help