• If you ever spot Spam (either in the forums, or received via forum direct message) please use the Report button at the bottom of each post to make sure a Moderator can handle it quickly. Thanks for your help in keeping things running smoothly!

Upgrade path

Sep 22, 2015
2
0
0
Upgrade for Amp andor Turntable?

PMC twenty 23 Loudpeakers - Rega RP6 Turntable - Roksan Kandy Amplifier (not the bluetooth one)

So the PMC's are superb but wonder if i'm wringing everything i could out of them. So what do i upgrade first and how much do i need to spend to hear and feel a significant difference? My thoughts are the amp initially and a quick search seems to indicate the Rega Elicit or Moon or the Roksan Blak at an even higher price point. In terms of the Turntable i guess there can be changes to cartridge but what and how much and so on?

And of course all money i spend on kit i can't spend on records.

All comments and experience appreciated and i will be visiting a dealer to try before i buy (thats how i ended up doubling my budget on the PMC's!)
 

Al ears

Moderator
Darryl Foulds said:
Upgrade for Amp andor Turntable?

PMC twenty 23 Loudpeakers - Rega RP6 Turntable - Roksan Kandy Amplifier (not the bluetooth one)

So the PMC's are superb but wonder if i'm wringing everything i could out of them. So what do i upgrade first and how much do i need to spend to hear and feel a significant difference? My thoughts are the amp initially and a quick search seems to indicate the Rega Elicit or Moon or the Roksan Blak at an even higher price point. In terms of the Turntable i guess there can be changes to cartridge but what and how much and so on?

And of course all money i spend on kit i can't spend on records.

All comments and experience appreciated and i will be visiting a dealer to try before i buy (thats how i ended up doubling my budget on the PMC's!)
Your turntable is sufficient and as you suggest an amplifier upgrade and cartridge would be the way to go. Do you listen solely to vinyl or has amp got to have inbuilt DAC etc.What cartridge is currently fitted to your deck?

Perhaps more importantly, what is your maximum budget?
 
Sep 22, 2015
2
0
0
thanks for taking time to reply.

The cartridge came with the it so from a little research i think it is the exact. I also have the rega phono stage (the roksan phono stage wasnt great) - the amp is also connected to tv via optical into a cheap box which converts into rca jacks into back of the roksan - also connected is the roksan kandy cd player which gets used occasionally and a lead out for connecting laptops, phones and ipads - budgetwise i'm fairly pragmatic - i'm thinking of about 2k but would go higher if the benefits are convincing - there is logically a ceiling for upgrades with the pmc's i guess?
 

nopiano

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2009
163
49
18,620
Your speakers probably have further potential if they are currently well set up in a decent room. Some will say the later twentyfive series is better, but they are much more money. However, a PMC dealer might be able to offer a good px price, so don’t rule that out.

There are many good integrated amps at around the £2k mark. Heavyweights by Rotel, Denon, Yamaha and Marantz if you like the power and Japanese style, British designed Rega and Naim models, and more neutral EU models by Hegel, Densen and Primare.

We all have different experiences but I’d suggest asking a PMC dealer to demo a couple, alongside the newer speakers, then see how you feel after that.
 

Al ears

Moderator
Darryl Foulds said:
thanks for taking time to reply.

The cartridge came with the it so from a little research i think it is the exact. I also have the rega phono stage (the roksan phono stage wasnt great) - the amp is also connected to tv via optical into a cheap box which converts into rca jacks into back of the roksan - also connected is the roksan kandy cd player which gets used occasionally and a lead out for connecting laptops, phones and ipads - budgetwise i'm fairly pragmatic - i'm thinking of about 2k but would go higher if the benefits are convincing - there is logically a ceiling for upgrades with the pmc's i guess?
Can I then suggest you look at the Parasound Halo Integrated. Over budget I know but has exactly what you need, and you can sell the Rega Phono stage. Cartridge upgrade comes later when you have got over the shock of a difference... ;-)
 

rainsoothe

Well-known member
Apr 30, 2012
330
121
19,070
nopiano said:
Your speakers probably have further potential if they are currently well set up in a decent room. Some will say the later twentyfive series is better, but they are much more money. However, a PMC dealer might be able to offer a good px price, so don’t rule that out. 

There are many good integrated amps at around the £2k mark.  Heavyweights by Rotel, Denon, Yamaha and Marantz if you like the power and Japanese style, British designed Rega and Naim models, and more neutral EU models by Hegel, Densen and Primare. 

We all have different experiences but I’d suggest asking a PMC dealer to demo a couple, alongside the newer speakers, then see how you feel after that. 
+1 to these and the parasound Halo. Out of the Naim lineup, I would look for a used first gen Nait XS, which will even save you money for a bit of an Ortofon 2m black or Nagaoka mp500
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
I owned these 20-23s before going to 25-23s Daryl and one thing about pmc is they can improve dramatically with amp upgrades. I’d be looking to spend at least £3k in amplification for these or with an upgrade route to same. I think your current set up is well under amped. Which exact Roksan model do you have. The kandy k2 intergrated?

I used cyrus on my old 20-23s and found I got big step ups going from a £1500 pre qx dac pre amp/dac and £1k x power, adding another x power in mono, all the way to £3k dac xp signature pre amp/dac, with mono x200 signatures (£4k). I was amazed the pmcs kept giving a lot extra.

I think you need to add detailed and fast dynamic amps to the pmcs to get the best musical balance, as their presentation is quite smooth bass wise, good detail but not huge, and dynamics good. As opposed to adding amps like naim that imo are tonally quite rich bass wise at these types of prices. Also brands like arcam too, which tends to have that reputation.

Some amps by musical fidelity like the m6si are decent, or leema works very well too. The tuccana 2 is fantastic too. These amps work well for detail, dynamics etc.

No doubt lots of people are bored of me saying this as I’ve said it before but you probably haven’t heard me say it, hence why I’m saying it again. If I were you I’d look at amps where you can go down an upgrade route and add power amps but you may want to think about going to a good pre first and then using your Roksan for the meantime until you can change power amps, if you want to make further investments in the system and start going down a pre and power route now. I always think this gets good benefits as if you’ve got an all in one unit you need to change, where upgrades to it are more difficult, it tends to be you don’t upgrade it as it’s expensive. I do think the Rega sound of detail and speed and dynamics is what you want but what sort of sound do you want. Trying to remember cnoevils decent descriptive on this :

detailed / analytical....... how do you state it cnoevil?
 

nopiano

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2009
163
49
18,620
Al ears said:
Darryl Foulds said:
thanks for taking time to reply.

The cartridge came with the it so from a little research i think it is the exact. I also have the rega phono stage (the roksan phono stage wasnt great) - the amp is also connected to tv via optical into a cheap box which converts into rca jacks into back of the roksan - also connected is the roksan kandy cd player which gets used occasionally and a lead out for connecting laptops, phones and ipads - budgetwise i'm fairly pragmatic - i'm thinking of about 2k but would go higher if the benefits are convincing - there is logically a ceiling for upgrades with the pmc's i guess?
Can I then suggest you look at the Parasound Halo Integrated. Over budget I know but has exactly what you need, and you can sell the Rega Phono stage. Cartridge upgrade comes later when you have got over the shock of a difference... ;-)
I’d wondered about mentioning that too. Over budget but rather splendid.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
If the reviews of the parasound are right - Jason Kennedy is usually a very reliable reviewer, it’s on the mellow side trading off detail, it won’t be a match of the similarly mellow and relaxed Pmc twenty 23s.

Attack mellow speakers with detailed amps, and mellow amps with detailed speakers, for best balance, or if you want mellow yellow (what was that song?) a good one for the shortlist.
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
163
9
4,595
Thought I'd chip in, since the parasound halo has been recommended. I have the parasound with the PMC twenty 26's. And haven't found any short comings till now, that I can point out.

I would have actually given a solid buy recommendation, but will abstain from that, since I don't have experience of hearing other kit in its price range. So don't know what others bring to the table.

As regards the power, it is plenty already. And I can barely go above 10 . So I don't think it is short in power. In my opinion the parasound is honest to a tune, and tracks rythms much better than anything I have heard in the past ( which is not much :) )

The biggest advantage of the parasound is excellent sub woofer integration. And this was the main reason for my purchase. So if you want to get into a 2.1 setup, you probably don't need to even audition the competition. However, if you want to stick with the main speakers alone, then you should audition similar offerings of course.

Please keep us posted with your audition experiences as you go :)
 

Al ears

Moderator
QuestForThe13thNote said:
If the reviews of the parasound are right - Jason Kennedy is usually a very reliable reviewer, it’s on the mellow side trading off detail, it won’t be a match of the similarly mellow and relaxed Pmc twenty 23s.

Attack mellow speakers with detailed amps, and mellow amps with detailed speakers, for best balance, or if you want mellow yellow (what was that song?) a good one for the shortlist.
You have a point but I have heard it, admittedly not attached to PMC, and for once I would disagree with Mr. Kennedy whos reviews I too value. I guess it's all relative to the reviewer and speakers used but I wouldn't have called it mellow, whereas a Croft is.

The Parasounds phono stage is up there with the best of any integrated amp I have heard, and that is paramount in a vinyl based system. Not sure if Mr. Kennedy tested it this way. This, and the ability to use tone controls or utilise a subwoofer makes it a very adaptable tool.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
Darryl, analogue system. Therefore source and speakers first. Speakers are a highly personal choice. Your PMC's would not be for me. If you like them a lot, then that's fine.

I personally would be looking for a good idler or direct drive to replace your OK but boring belt drive.

For example this as a zero net cost upgrade:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/sony-ps-8750-classic-plattenspieler/759758716-172-18670

Having sorted out your turntable, you could then spoil yourself to a really nice cartridge and phono stage.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
Al ears said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
If the reviews of the parasound are right - Jason Kennedy is usually a very reliable reviewer, it’s on the mellow side trading off detail, it won’t be a match of the similarly mellow and relaxed Pmc twenty 23s.

Attack mellow speakers with detailed amps, and mellow amps with detailed speakers, for best balance, or if you want mellow yellow (what was that song?) a good one for the shortlist.
You have a point but I have heard it, admittedly not attached to PMC, and for once I would disagree with Mr. Kennedy whos reviews I too value. I guess it's all relative to the reviewer and speakers used but I wouldn't have called it mellow, whereas a Croft is.

The Parasounds phono stage is up there with the best of any integrated amp I have heard, and that is paramount in a vinyl based system. Not sure if Mr. Kennedy tested it this way. This, and the ability to use tone controls or utilise a subwoofer makes it a very adaptable tool.
I think you are right, it’s all relative to the reviewer so he would have heard a set up with more detail.

if you ask pmc they tend to use Bryston and avm, which whilst out of budget, are very detailed. Like my cyrus stuff. Has a nice balance. But the prices of this avm and Bryston stuff is very premium so it tends to be you get loads of detail as a natural progression of getting very premium hi Fi. Pmc demoed twenty range at shows with Bryston and very nice.

Cant remember what the budget was but if the op wants a cyrus recommendation, aside from other non cyrus amps I suggested, the cyrus stereo 200 power amp and pre 2 dac pre amp/dac, is hugely capable at driving pmc twenty 23s. I ve heard that combo. good balance as amps and speaker combo , detail in spades, dynamics etc. Around £2700 in total.

Also as twenty 23s are dynamic, match with dynamic amps and they really shine!
 

nopiano

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2009
163
49
18,620
QuestForThe13thNote said:
Al ears said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
If the reviews of the parasound are right - Jason Kennedy is usually a very reliable reviewer, it’s on the mellow side trading off detail, it won’t be a match of the similarly mellow and relaxed Pmc twenty 23s.

Attack mellow speakers with detailed amps, and mellow amps with detailed speakers, for best balance, or if you want mellow yellow (what was that song?) a good one for the shortlist.
You have a point but I have heard it, admittedly not attached to PMC, and for once I would disagree with Mr. Kennedy whos reviews I too value. I guess it's all relative to the reviewer and speakers used but I wouldn't have called it mellow, whereas a Croft is.

The Parasounds phono stage is up there with the best of any integrated amp I have heard, and that is paramount in a vinyl based system. Not sure if Mr. Kennedy tested it this way. This, and the ability to use tone controls or utilise a subwoofer makes it a very adaptable tool.
I think you are right, it’s all relative to the reviewer so he would have heard a set up with more detail.

if you ask pmc they tend to use Bryston and avm, which whilst out of budget, are very detailed. Like my cyrus stuff. Has a nice balance. But the prices of this avm and Bryston stuff is very premium so it tends to be you get loads of detail as a natural progression of getting very premium hi Fi. Pmc demoed twenty range at shows with Bryston and very nice.

Cant remember what the budget was but if the op wants a cyrus recommendation, aside from other non cyrus amps I suggested, the cyrus stereo 200 power amp and pre 2 dac pre amp/dac, is hugely capable at driving pmc twenty 23s. I ve heard that combo. good balance as amps and speaker combo , detail in spades, dynamics etc. Around £2700 in total.

Also as twenty 23s are dynamic, match with dynamic amps and they really shine!
They use AVM and Bryston because they import them.

No reports yet on their own integrated amp, though it’s not relevant here.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
Yes that’s true nopiano and using avm and Bryston at shows to show off their own speakers. But they would have had to have selected avm and Bryston based on listening to them, from many amp brands, to try and show off their own speakers to best effect. So commercial considerations aside from importing I think you can draw a credible parallel that pmc use these types of amps for the sq they give, areas they major on, for a sound quality reason in conjunction for use with getting best out of their speakers. Not that all other amps can’t be used, but my point was the sound quality trademark of the amp is what they are deciding on. Lots of detail etc.

the pmc cor amp is more of a anaologue sounding mid range premium audiophile type amp that will appeal to lots of people who like such a sound and will not necessarily be using it just with pmc (unless you like smooth plus smooth). I reckon pmc clearly brought that out to suit this smooth taste and their own brand reputation, for hi Fi at the budget to mid range end of a premium audiophile set up. That’s why they don’t demo the cor in the ‘main best centre stage demo’ set ups at shows. It kind of suits the smooth sounding hi Fi appeal commonly not used with the best detailed amps you get when you get to the likes of the avm 8.2. But the cor on a set of fact 8s or twenty 5 speakers is not anywhere as good as the avm 8.2 unsurprisingly for areas like dynamics, detail etc. Also avm 5.2 on twenty5 is better than the cor too in these areas. Just depends on taste too. Similar priced amps I think around £5k.
 

Electro

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2011
43
2
18,545
rainsoothe said:
Aren't PMC voiced with Bryston amplification?
I think the point of PMC using Bryston is that Bryston is very close to neutral and this is what PMC are looking for when developing their speakers, to be as neutral and accurate as possible.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
739
298
5,270
Yes, but like Nopiano said I wouldn't overlook the financial interest. You just happen to like the presentation.

As an example look at recent acquisition of Roksan by Monitor Audio. You've heard the combination yourself... How many people that come on here would receive that pairing as recommendation? I can't think of many if any at all. Then there's Naim & Focal... How many would say Focal with Naim straight away?
 

Al ears

Moderator
insider9 said:
Yes, but like Nopiano said I wouldn't overlook the financial interest. You just happen to like the presentation.

As an example look at recent acquisition of Roksan by Monitor Audio. You've heard the combination yourself... How many people that come on here would receive that pairing as recommendation? I can't think of many if any at all. Then there's Naim & Focal... How many would say Focal with Naim straight away?
I have to say that just because one company takes over another doesn't necessarily mean the two products are best bed-partners.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
Electro said:
rainsoothe said:
Aren't PMC voiced with Bryston amplification?
I think the point of PMC using Bryston is that Bryston is very close to neutral and this is what PMC are looking for when developing their speakers, to be as neutral and accurate as possible.
I think pmc are as an overall sound unto themselves, a smooth bass presentation, as opposed to other brands that are often hiked in high frequencieseg monitor audio. Certainly the old ranges pre twenty, and the fact ranges. Not sure about twenty5. But obviously the overall sound is the issue, and paired with an amp.

Bryston is a very detailed amp and you’d expect if you look at the engineering and what they are striving to achieve at that price. Keith at pmc told me that when I was at Bristol, they use detailed amps to get the best from the system. Neutral is one thing in terms of balance but I was talking about detail. So the amp may be neutral on balance, but the point is you want maximum balanced resolution out of an amplifier you can achieve at a given price, if you are matching with speakers that offer natural bass but aren’t hiked up for the high frequencies, like most pmcs. Not just loads of treble but balanced detail. That’s one reason why a pmc fact 8 sounds better with the avm 8.2 than using the pmc cor. It does all the dynamics but has better resolution. I think that’s why pmc get better as you use really good amps - you get the best of bass quality and smooth tone of speakers and the detail resolution a good amp gives you.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
insider9 said:
Yes, but like Nopiano said I wouldn't overlook the financial interest. You just happen to like the presentation.

As an example look at recent acquisition of Roksan by Monitor Audio. You've heard the combination yourself... How many people that come on here would receive that pairing as recommendation? I can't think of many if any at all. Then there's Naim & Focal... How many would say Focal with Naim straight away?
i heard the roksan and monitor audio pairing at the latest show I went to and it was bright and I’d use the term reservedly for the very harsh brightest of pairings. But it was the kandy amps and basic monitor audios, so it could just have been a very bad pairing and with a different ma, conceivably different and ok? But it depends on budgets as well doesn’t it. If you use the best monitor audio and roksan you possibly can’t expect to apply the sound as being the same sound signature as a basic roksan and monitor audio speaker, surely? No hard and fast rules accross a range.

thats what slightly confuses me with some peoples attitudes to some brands. They may think the budget or midrange stuff of that brand is not great compared to others, and they’d be right with their views, but go to the top of that ‘poor’ manufactures range, and it can be another matter. It’s probably why I’d never buy a budget marantz but I would have their top stuff!

I tend to think that it often depends on the exact speakers as different speakers can vary in the range like the pmc twenty and twenty5 range and the fact 3s, 8s and 12s are more like more of the twenty range.

Naim and focal is I suspect a good pairing if you put the really decent naim stuff with focal id say, as they are both very good and their respective qualities compliment. I wouldn’t mismatch like they were doing with the naim nova and focal speakers at indulgence. That sounded horrible.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
8
0

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts