Unhappy About Advice in The Magazine !!

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As a non techie 'man-in-the street' purchaser of What Hi-Fi I have always thought it's editorial style to be extremely good - and especially so at being informative to those of us who are not hardened Hi-Fi enthusiasts.

When our family household wanted (needed?) a new TV and DVD system I once again found myself reaching for the What Hi-Fi mags. True to form the information and advice I sought was contained within. All we needed was a not too big flat screen TV with an internal freeview tuner and a good quality DVD player. After a few months of research (my family tell me it's procrastination) I decided that all the accolades that the magazine heaped on the Toshiba 32WLT68 and the Denon 1930 were sufficient to make the decision an easy one. I seemed to recall that the exclamations on the 1930 were particularly constant and unequivocal. I even managed to understand the concept of HDMI and bought the rather expensive cable!

When all was delivered last February, I found myself instantly dissapointed with the DVD play-back through HDMI and Digital TV channels. The sound sync was out by miles - not all the time, but it would come and go. It really was quite unwatchable.

Assuming that it was my non-techie incomptetance I searched for a few setting, but to no avail. I settled on plugging in an old fashioned scart lead between the DVD and TV. Better, but not great - and it certainly defeats the object of all this flash HDMI stuff!! Nearly a year on, we don't really watch DVDs on it because we're all watching for lip-sync rather than a plot and digital TV is unused for the same reason.

Frustrated by this, and assuming that I am a techie-failure, I finally started reading through some of the web forums to see what I've done wrong! Low and behold it's not me!, loads of posting complaining how bad the sync issues are with the Toshiba TV and in particular, the Denon 1930. It's quite clearly a known issue.

Now this is where I get really cross, and I have to say, cross with the magazine. No where is or was this ever mentioned, so a novice like me will follow the advice and end up parting with hard earned family money for a system that is unwatchable. I think that's poor from the editorial team - I assume I am part of their target market and I feel let down and aggrieved. A 'What' magazine exists to give advice to the knowlegable and the novice - or am I wrong? I wonder if anyone from the magazine might reply?

Does anyone else feel similarly aggrieved, or am I a lone voice in the dark?

While I'm having my moan, does anyone have any suggestions? I have read that there are gadgets I can buy, or route it all through an AV system. But I don't want to buy either of these, we just want quality TV and quality films. Send it all back and buy something else?

Cheers all.

Rob

 

[Anonymous]

The guys cannot test every tv with every dvd. It may be the case that both are great products in their own right but unfortunately don't work together well. I just think it's bad luck.

 

[Cofnchtr]

Hi,

I agree with hifi_nut - I think you're unlucky in that two products tested individually have proven to be excellent devices on their own but the faults you describe could only be seen where both products were tested together.

Presumably the magazine did not test these together and could not comment on the fault. What I do find strange is that you've apparently held onto them for a year before making a complaint? If there was such a major issue with this equipment, I'd have spoken to the dealer earlier and suggested a swap of equipment to see if this was a fault with only your particular player or a general compatability issue between these two pieces of equipment.

Magazines such as this are only guides and you should always 'try before you buy' as much as you possibly can. Do some research from other sources including the forums you have mentioned to see if anyone else has discovered any problems that this or other magazines may not know about.

Why not buy another DVD player and put the Denon in a different room?

Cheers,

Cofnchtr.

 

[Anonymous]

i am new to this game to but i have to admit everytime i have wanted something new i have always reached for the same mag and now read these forums every day. i might even be called sad but you do learn new things every day. i have a 1930 and it matched up to a samsung very well. i dont think the mag is to blame or the team because my view about a bit of kit might not be every one else view.plus the endless link ups to different TV's would take for ever. if your able to take it back then i would do that and expalin the problems you are having. if they are honest they have more returns for the same reason but always hope that people never notice or come back and complain. i get nearly all my stufff from richer sounds who i have always found to be friendly and helpful and will even hook up the kit before you buy, this way you get to see how it performs. i have learnt the hard way myself before i joined this site and it was an expensive mistake to make. now i never buy anything when it first comes out, and normally you bag a bargain too because the price drops.

chin up and take it back

 

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry to hear you've experienced trouble, and that you're disappointed with us.

Others on this forum have commented that we can't be expected to test every component in every combination. I'd agree with that, but should also add that when a product does well - and the DVD-1930 obviously did well, winning an Award and remaining a class-leader for some time - we do tend to keep it around the place for several months, and in the course of that period, it'll get used with many different complementary components.

I only point this out because in our experience of our DVD-1930 (and you'll note I say 'our'), we didn't observe any lip-sync issues, either running the unit directly into a wide variety of TVs, or via a multichannel receiver. We know what to look for, and we're all keen enough DVD watchers (and buyers) to find errors of this type unacceptable - so if we'd seen it on our sample, either in our First Test or in our subsequent testing of the component, we'd comment on it, and mark the product down accordingly.

Googling around the subject, I found buyers with similar experiences to you, as you state - but I equally found several Denon owners who had experienced no difficulties with their players. I can only infer that our review sample fell into the latter batch in quality control terms. Yours, sadly for you, did not.

What to do about it? First, I'd suggest you consider borrowing a DVD player from a friend to try in place of your Denon for the weekend. If the alternative player plays your films without fault, and if (hopefully) you're still within your warranty period, as your last comment suggests, then I'd ask for a refund and buy something else.

I've no doubt this will be both an inconvenience and an irritation, but short of introducing an external lip-sync processor unit (which you've stated you don't want to do) I can see no other sensible resolution. Finally, I'd add that the number of issues being raised about the DVD-1930's performance are a cause for concern with us, and that we'd welcome hearing about any similar issues from posters regarding their components. Perhaps we could set up a long-term-reliability thread within the Your System section that everyone could contribute to? I'd welcome any thoughts.

Best regards, Andy

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Cofnchtr"]
Magazines such as this are only guides and you should always 'try before you buy' as much as you possibly can. Do some research from other sources including the forums you have mentioned to see if anyone else has discovered any problems that this or other magazines may not know about.

Why not buy another DVD player and put the Denon in a different room?

Cheers,

Cofnchtr.

[/quote]

Hell..I'm glad you're not a Reviewer for WHFS&V.........We'd all be in Doo Doo!

Personally I find it quite uncanny. You read so many complaints in so many forums about the Lip Synch issues with the Denon DVD 1930 and yet no one at WHFS&V appears to have identified this

We all know that systems consist of diffferent parts. The TV, the AVR, The DVD Player for example. No point therefore in telling us, even in guidance, that the Pioneer 428XD, the Onkyo 650? AVR and the Denon DVD 1940 are all great award winning products in their own right if they don't actually all go together and work in Synch. You then end up spending more money on things like single audio delay units or Amps with built in audio delay if you own neither to begin with

 

[Anonymous]

Let's be clear: I don't think it's acceptable that so many buyers have experienced problems with this range of players, which is why I proposed setting up a feedback section on this forum where readers can let us know of any issues they've identified. I'd be interested to hear from any readers who own Denons that work without fault, too, if only to get a gauge on the scale of the problem.

However, as I said before, our DVD-1930 sample - which we had on site for several months - worked without fault, whatever the display we connected it to. Other posters on other forums have had the same experience. Of course, the issue clearly exists (I'm not denying that for one moment): it simply hasn't affected us, or, it would appear, some others.

All the best, Andy

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="hifi_nut"]The guys cannot test every tv with every dvd. It may be the case that both are great products in their own right but unfortunately don't work together well. I just think it's bad luck.[/quote]

Hi

I think the one point that didn't come accross in my original post was that the Toshiba on its own shows varying and at sometimes huge sync errors when viewing through the digital (freeview) internal tuner. Everyone's reply suggests the match of the DVD and TV is unfortunate, but this problem relates just to the TV. I now suspect it may be the rogue of the piece.

Rob

 

[Cofnchtr]

Hi,

Tallyho - why would you all be in doo doo? How many units have been sold and how many have this fault? Do you seriously expect the WHFS&V reviewers to test every tv with every dvd player with every amp with every PVR with every.... you get the picture.

Why would you think their views are going to be the same as yours?

As I said, use magazines such as this for guidance, another point of view, to narrow your own search and make your own decisions. You are the one who has to live with them, not the reviewer.

Nobody held a gun to his head to purchase these items, he made his own decision based on a professional review of a particular product placed before them. Do you expect the reviewers to then GoogleT the www and base their decision on other sets they have not seen? They can only comment on the piece of equipment in front of them. If it later transpires an issue becomes apparent that is widespread, they may try to find out more and deduct a star etc. from the original review. The subject line says it all: A-D-V-I-C-E! It's up to the poster as to whether he acts on it.

The problem is with the equipment and not the review. He saw a problem within a short time space - he should have acted on it and spoken to the supplier.

Cheers,

Cofnchtr.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Cofnchtr"]
What I do find strange is that you've apparently held onto them for a year before making a complaint? If there was such a major issue with this equipment, I'd have spoken to the dealer earlier and suggested a swap of equipment to see if this was a fault with only your particular player or a general compatability issue between these two pieces of equipment.

Why not buy another DVD player and put the Denon in a different room?

[/quote]

Hi. Thanks for your reply. I did actually make a call to the supplier of the TV and DVD. Both claimed to have no knowledge of any such problem and because I'd never seen the topic even touched upon in the mag I didn't even know that such issues existed in this kind of AV equipment. I just assumed it was a me not knowing how to set it all up correctly and assumed I'd have to try and solve it with settings or something.

And as I said, I'm not a massive AV or Hi-Fi enthusiast, so we just got used to watching conventional channels. I don't get a lot of time to fiddle with techie bits, so the months have simply rolled by. It was only when we tried to watch a film on one of the freeview channels this weekend that it was so bad I couldn't believe I was the only one. Lo-and-behold, I searched some forums and now the topic of the Toshiba (and the 1930) is well and truly posted all over the place. That's why I was cross, there was no hint of this when I was doing my original research.

As for buying another DVD and moving the 1930 to another room . . . . we have a house with a TV and DVD player! That's all we need.

Rob

 

[Anonymous]

newtothegame

Thanks for your reply. I always try and shop locally at independant retailers which I did for the 1930 (paying a little more for the privilege - but I want the high streets to survive). Unfortunately I just couldn't get any local suppliers to get anywhere near the price on the Toshiba (like £250 adrift!) so I ended up buying from one of the big companies. It was a mistake that I regret. I live in Leicestershire and we have a richer sounds and in future I will probably follow your lead. Incidentally, I did not buy this kit when it firts came out, I think both units had been around for a while. Cheers. Rob

 

[Cofnchtr]

Hi,

Since purchasing my tv and SKYHD system, I have also noticed a lip-sync issue when watching some HD channels - Andrew Everard has also commented about this but it's not (that I remember) been mentioned in the magazine. It's still not a problem with the review of the tv or SKYHD box.

I also see the 'scrolling text issue' which is apparently because I have set the SKY to output at 1080i - again it's not a fault of the review or the reviewer.

Cheers,

Cofnchtr,

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Tallyho"]
Personally I find it quite uncanny. You read so many complaints in so many forums about the Lip Synch issues with the Denon DVD 1930 and yet no one at WHFS&V appears to have identified this

[/quote]

Hi. I think that's my point. There now seems so many references to this as an issue on the web that I'm surprised that it isn't referred to more in the industry media. An AV system that doesn't match the audio to the picture seems ludicrously deficient. Cheers.

Rob

 

[Anonymous]

Whilst I agree what hi fi shouldn't have to test every combination of equipment, its an interesting issue, because I do think they should test at least some combinations which most of the customers are likely to have.

If what hi fi are recommending 5 stars to a popular television X and then review a great amp one month and give it a 5 star rating they should really be including the 5 star television in the test. Given most people will pick up the recommended 5 star components which what hi fi award it makes sense that most people reading the magazine will be likely to have these recommended components.

If Rob had purchased these components based on the recommendations of what hi fi then it's unfortunate that the reviewers didn't find any issues which clearly a lot of people have had.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Cofnchtr,

I think your point is that it's not the fault of the reviewer. In all honesty I agree. I think my gripe is really with 'the industry' and What Hi-Fi is my only real exposure to that (it not being my main hobby).

My passion (and knowledge) is probably boats. If you wanted to buy a boat and all the kit that can go with it - assuming that you knew little about the subject, you'd no doubt end up referring to the equivalent marine press. If you bought stuff that it rated highly and then found out later that it didn't actually do what it's supposed to do you might feel a little aggrieved. And that's how I feel.

But stangley it's actually comforting to see that it's just not me that's goofed. At least now that I know it's a problem I can go and buy something else - a little wiser and little more knowledgable!

Cheers

 

[Anonymous]

Andy

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my gripe! As I've mentioned in one of my other replies, I think my grievance is probably as much with the industry as it is with your magazine - it's just that your journal has always been my reference to the industry.

Whilst I can't really justify buying top end stuff I did want to buy a half-decent system that would do us for a few years. I confess I did rely on your magazine to avoid me having to take the dubious advice of the 'spotty oiks' masquerading as salesman in our local superstores. I even attended your show at Bristol in 2006 and spoke at length with Denon. If someone from any aspect of the industry had given me the slightest hint that there can sometimes be such probelms, my purchase decision or research might have been different. But I never heard of sync errors until I plugged my system in! Was I unreasonable in my assumption that I could purchase equipment in that price bracket and expect it to work, or is the subject not really within the understanding of novices such as myself?

One point that I would like to clarify is that my problem is not exclusively with the combination of the 1930 and the Toshiba. The TV itself syncs really badly on the digital channels. I was really surprised at this because I assume something of this nature would have been picked up in your tests. What I can't gauge or decide, now that I've seen various posts complaining about this Toshiba Model, is whether they produced some faulty ones, or is this a fault common to all. Is it possible that I could just have a bad one and the one you reviewed was from the good batch? It would explain a lot, because 10 minutes with my TV and you'd be struggling to give it any stars.

I will follow your advice re trying another loan DVD player and see how that fairs - but given my previous point about the TV sync errors from its internal digital tuner, I'm not sure which unit is the culprit, the Toshiba, the DVD or both.

Thanks again for your reply and the frank admission that you now share some concerns about the 1930. It refreshing to see an open approach on this. I trust if you might be able to bring some pressure to bear on Denon if the number of issues suggests that they've sold a duffer into the market place.

Rob

 

[Cofnchtr]

Hi RobChap,

If you had bought something for your boat or as a deal within the sale (or should that be sail?) and you took the boat out and this piece of equipment was faulty (say it was a navigational aid) would you not start dialogue with the dealer rather than the magazine who recommended the equipment?

That was my point - talk to the dealer to sort out the problem - the minute you realise there's a problem report it as a fault and then the dealership or manufacturer can sort it out amicably.

Hope you get it solved - either the tv or player is at fault - trial and error will show which item is faulty. It may even be a bit of both.

Cheers,

Cofnchtr