The future of CD

[dannycanham]

i agree with Majors comment entirely , Sacd and Dvda were introduced to address that problem exactly and sounded as good NO better than vinyl

SACD and DVDA may have sounded no better than vinyl when comparing a commercial success to a complete flop but if they had followed the evolution of a succesfull format such as CD and vinyl then pound for pound you would now have much better sounding systems through SACD and DVDA than CD and Vinyl, from budget to top end. The recources from audio engineering of source material to the competing of financial and human time to create the most pleasing reproduction never happened.

SACD and DVDA had technical flaws as a music storage medium (I would hope that future physical sources don't relly on a moving medium that need a line of sight through everyday air to the data (audiophile air is what we need!)) but vastly less than CD and vinyl.

 

[dannycanham]

To be fair, the industry did introduce several successors to CD, such as SACD and DVD-A to name but two. But the truth was, the mass-market didn't want it.

That is an unfair assumption. I can go to my local co op or off licence and get a DVD player or a CD player for under £20 and (questionable taste) disk material for a fiver. For most of the SACD and DVDA lifespan I could go to a small section of a music store and pay a large overhead for a SACD disk or DVDA disk or pay a large overhead in a Hi Fi store for a player that wasn't an engineering equivalent of the same price CD player and at the same time know I was gambling on a inaccessible format.

 

[crusaderlord]

whilst i agree generally people are happy with download quality, there seems to be an assumption by some that downloads are more convenient than cd - i dont subscribe to this. for me personally yes it is pretty easy and convenient but a large % of the population are still not pc hungry to rip, download, set up playlists etc. i recently had to buy a player for the bedroom, i set about getting a dock until my wife clearly stated it had to have a cd player as she want going to muck about with a pc - she just wanted to put in a disk and listen. final point is that v most downloads i see the cd is actually cheaper - i get most of mine for £5 or less which is lower than the main download sites. i cant see cd going anywhere

 

[MajorFubar]

That is an unfair assumption. I can go to my local co op or off licence and get a DVD player or a CD player for under £20 and (questionable taste) disk material for a fiver. For most of the SACD and DVDA lifespan I could go to a small section of a music store and pay a large overhead for a SACD disk or DVDA disk or pay a large overhead in a Hi Fi store for a player that wasn't an engineering equivalent of the same price CD player and at the same time know I was gambling on a inaccessible format.

With all due respect I think you unfortunately missed my point. Had the mass-marked been clammering for SACD or DVD-A, by now the players and the media would be both plentiful and cheap. The fact is the market wasn't, so they're not. By the same standards, it impresses me that the mass market has bought into BluRay. It must be because Joe Cunsumer values HD video more than HD audio. But then we knew that already: most people are perfectly happy to listen to 128k MP3s and prefer them to CDs and vinyl, simply because they can get two billion of the critters on their iPhone.

Sorry if I didn't make my point clear initially.

 

[chebby]

CD will hang on all the time people are prepared to buy them in sufficient numbers for a profit to be made.

The format is on the down-turn from 'cash cow' status and will probably be 'niche' soon enough.

Unlike LPs, CDs have almost zero 'charm' as objects, no curiosity value, and no 'tactile' properties. (The cases are awful and the artwork tiny). So, as a niche product (like LPs and turntables), CDs are pretty doomed in my opinion. Second hand/collector CDs will do the rounds for a little while - until everyone has ripped their contents - but not to anything like the extent of the second-hand LP market nor for anywhere near as long.

New dedicated CD players will be made by one or two companies to serve the existing CD generation (much like there are one or two companies still making hifi cassette decks even now) but nowhere near the scale of choice in brand-new turntables/arms/cartridges available to LP users at every budget level still (over 20 years since the LP was supposed to have 'died').

The continued backwards compatibility of Blu-ray and DVD players (and computer drives) will be more than enough to serve legacy CD playback/ripping requirements for all but the most 'die-hard' of CD users.

High quality downloads will also remain as a niche product much as they are now. (Much as specialist 'audiophile' LPs, SACDs, and CDs have always been.)

 

[daveloc]

SACD and DVDA had technical flaws as a music storage medium (I would hope that future physical sources don't rely on a moving medium that need a line of sight through everyday air to the data)

Sort of agree with you here: if solid-state cards had got bigger and cheaper even a little more quickly, it would have been possible to introduce retail hires audio on CPRM-enabled SDHC instead of SACD/DVDA (and eventually HD video on SDXC instead of BD)...

 

[chebby]

The way things are progressing there may not be any 'personally owned' physical media (nor even downloads) in future.

Everything will be consumed from, and stored in, 'the cloud'

 

[The_Lhc]

The way things are progressing there may not be any 'personally owned' physical media (nor even downloads) in future.

Everything will be consumed from, and stored in, 'the cloud'

It'll be more acceptable once they stop talking about the online storage as a product in its own right, so rather than Apple's iCloud, or the Google whateverthehellitis, you just buy a playback device (home or portable), register it with your payment details and then just play whatever you want, regardless of who's supplying it (after all, why do you care where it comes from?). Ideally it'd work on a Spotify type model, a fixed monthly fee, rather than per track, you can imagine if you go off on a random selection of stuff you've never listened to before a per track fee might hold a nasty surprise at the end of the month.

Ultimately you just want to stick some headphones in your ears, press play and forget about any other consideration, such as whether you've got enough storage on the device or if you need to purchase that album or that track etc etc, just play whatever takes your mood.

Actually Spotify on mobile over 3g is almost there anyway, so this may not be so far away, once 3G (or 4G) coverage becomes ubiquitous, download costs on the move will have to come down though, especially if the streaming quality improves.

 

[the record spot]

I think the CD will be gone in a couple of years. I use a laptop and a HRT music streamer for a while now......I will never go back to a cd player again

Gone in a couple of years? They said that about vinyl and of course, twenty years on...!

CD has plenty of life in it for a while yet, but it will dwindle and carry on as a niche product in time. I'm quite happy to stick with it; the sound quality really is very good, other formats (of which there are many) are very niche in turn without one dominant audio format out there to replace 16-bit as yet.

 

[daveloc]

It'll be more acceptable once they stop talking about the online storage as a product in its own right, so rather than Apple's iCloud, or the Google whateverthehellitis, you just buy a playback device (home or portable), register it with your payment details and then just play whatever you want, regardless of who's supplying it (after all, why do you care where it comes from?).

Ultraviolet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraViolet_(system) is close...

'UltraViolet does not store files. It is not a "cloud storage" platform. The UltraViolet coordinator stores in the cloud the right for the content purchased or rent [...], but not the content itself. The content may be obtained in any way, in the desired format for a target device with the specific DRM technology supported by this device.'

EDITED BY MODS for inappropriate language 'Apple and Disney do not support this format'

PS: Red laser CD/DVD; Blue Laser BD; Ultraviolet GEDDIT?!! (©G. Slagg)

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

It'll be more acceptable once they stop talking about the online storage as a product in its own right, so rather than Apple's iCloud, or the Google whateverthehellitis, you just buy a playback device (home or portable), register it with your payment details and then just play whatever you want, regardless of who's supplying it (after all, why do you care where it comes from?).

Ultraviolet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraViolet_(system) is close...

'UltraViolet does not store files. It is not a "cloud storage" platform. The UltraViolet coordinator stores in the cloud the right for the content purchased or rent [...], but not the content itself. The content may be obtained in any way, in the desired format for a target device with the specific DRM technology supported by this device.'

'Apple and Disney do not support this format'

PS: Red laser CD/DVD; Blue Laser BD; Ultraviolet GEDDIT?!! (©G. Slagg)

I think I'll just stick to the black and silver discs then

 

[StevieC]

Does any format really die out completely? There is a company in the UK (Sheffield area I think but not sure) that manufactures BRAND NEW Wax Cylinders! Also it's only 4 or 5 years since I purchased a BRAND NEW '78'.

And as for the cassette being dead wasn't the recently remastered 'Exile On Main Street' available as a cassette as well as a multitude of other packages/formats?

As MajorFubar has said, with regards to the masses convenience will always win, or at least come a close second to being 'Cool & Trendy'. Then there's cost, availability etc.

Remember, a lot of people won't bother with things unless they can pick it up cheap at the local Tesco along with a pint of milk and a box of cornflakes. Sadly, sound quality is probably about 8th down the list, if considered at all.

Of course what the record company's would really like is for every song that you've bought to be implanted directly into your brain therefore totally eradicating illegal copying (oops, sorry, bit of my cynisism crept in there).

Cheers, Steve

 

[dannycanham]

That is an unfair assumption. I can go to my local co op or off licence and get a DVD player or a CD player for under £20 and (questionable taste) disk material for a fiver. For most of the SACD and DVDA lifespan I could go to a small section of a music store and pay a large overhead for a SACD disk or DVDA disk or pay a large overhead in a Hi Fi store for a player that wasn't an engineering equivalent of the same price CD player and at the same time know I was gambling on a inaccessible format.

With all due respect I think you unfortunately missed my point. Had the mass-marked been clammering for SACD or DVD-A, by now the players and the media would be both plentiful and cheap. The fact is the market wasn't, so they're not. By the same standards, it impresses me that the mass market has bought into BluRay. It must be because Joe Cunsumer values HD video more than HD audio. But then we knew that already: most people are perfectly happy to listen to 128k MP3s and prefer them to CDs and vinyl, simply because they can get two billion of the critters on their iPhone. Sorry if I didn't make my point clear initially.

No I didn't miss your point. You are just wrong. For the main, the mass market doesn't clammer for items and then they become accessible. The market has items rammed down their throat through product placement and advertising. SACD and DVDA were barely available or marketed. I don't understand how it impresses you that the market has bought into blu ray. Everybody who bought an HD TV needed something to show it off and littering the shelves next to the TVs were blu ray players.

Pay a little more attention to the world around you in future and you may begin to make more accurate statements.

 

[the record spot]

Incidentally, Sony are continuing to churn out SACD functionality with their Blu-Ray players and of course, Cambridge are supporting not only it, but also DVD-A and HDCD as indeed are Oppo.

 

[jerry klinger]

Does any format really die out completely? ...it's only 4 or 5 years since I purchased a BRAND NEW '78'. And as for the cassette being dead wasn't the recently remastered 'Exile On Main Street' available as a cassette ...

Indeed - EMI recently released a 'Good Vibrations' 78 for national record store day, and of course Rega make their 78 turntable.
The cassette continues to be constantly used in parts of the world that WHF forum readers seem unaware of...
and yesterday I was playing my new yellow vinyl 45 of two tracks from the forthcoming Smile Sessions box as included in the Mojo 60s magazine special just out.

 

[Andrew Everard]

No I didn't miss your point. You are just wrong.

<SNIP>

Pay a little more attention to the world around you in future and you may begin to make more accurate statements.

Wind the attitude down a couple of notches, please.

 

[MajorFubar]

No I didn't miss your point. You are just wrong. For the main, the mass market doesn't clammer for items and then they become accessible. The market has items rammed down their throat through product placement and advertising. SACD and DVDA were barely available or marketed. I don't understand how it impresses you that the market has bought into blu ray. Everybody who bought an HD TV needed something to show it off and littering the shelves next to the TVs were blu ray players.

Pay a little more attention to the world around you in future and you may begin to make more accurate statements.

I think you need to chill out.

You are right that on the whole people will buy what they're sold, but sometimes no matter how much you try to shove something down a consumer's throat they just won't buy it.

I don't know how old you are but in the 1970s Sony spent a small fortune developing a replacement for cassette called the Elcaset. Its sound quality was more or less on par with low-end open-reel decks. It failed. Miserably. Nobody wanted it because it answered a question nobody asked. Audiophiles stuck with open-reel decks and those wanting convenience stuck to cassettes and 8-track carts.

Don't you think Sony wanted it to succeed? It was advertised very well in the HiFi press at the time, and it received glowing reviews. Sony invested millions into the product. The last rumour I heard is that by the end of 1981, Sony had dumped thousands of unsold decks overboard into the north sea because they literally couldn't give them away and they needed to write them off their books. (Though that bit is probably more urban myth than truth).

What's your excuse as to why DCC failed? Or why home DAT didn't take off? Don't you for one minute think one reason might be that no-one actually wanted them?

MD was hardly a runaway success either. Do you think Sony just sat there and said "nah we won't advertise this well, or support it with software. Let's just let it fail". Actually Sony once again poured millions into it, but it never really took off in the way they wanted. The real reason MD didn't take off well is because recordable CDRs were just round the corner, and everybody knew it. That's what the market wanted. Unsold prerecorded MDs eventually ended up in HMV's bargain buckets for 50p each.

You can add DVD-A and SACD to that list of products which 'failed' because they answered a question that not enough people asked. You can hardly blame manufacturers and record companies for being tentative: they'd been stung a few times by then!

Of course it's true that f everyone had clammered for them the manufacturers would have gone arse over tip to produce machines and software. How can you not think that's true?

But by your reckoning they only failed because they were deliberately under-promoted and under-supported for a reason that even you admit you don't know.

So, mister high and mighty keyboard-warrior, wind your neck in, YOU 'pay a little more attention to the world around you', and maybe YOU will 'begin to make more accurate statements'. Yes, on most occasions the pigs eat whatever swill the farmer throws in the troughs, but not always. Sometimes they just simply don't want it and the farmer goes away having incurred a huge loss and has to try again.

(Funny isn't it how certain people hide behind the anonymity of internet-forums and feel the need to blurt-out unwarranted insults they wouldn't dare say to the same complete stranger face to face.)

 

[the record spot]

But by your reckoning they only failed because they were deliberately under-promoted and under-supported for a reason that even you admit you don't know!

Which as it happens is true. The manufacturers didn't prmote the medium, while the public didn't understand and/or weren't prepared to accept they needed to buy a new player for something they couldn't readily clap hands on in the shops, not when CDs were plentiful (and cheaper).

The truth is it's really a combination of the two, rather than one or the other. The benefits for SACD or DVD-A were never really sold effectively as an audio medium, the record labels didn't become early adopters in a hurry, the hardware was never really marketed fully and the public didn't "get" the message accordingly. Nothing to do with rejection, except, rather, that it was delivered by the industry's own hand.

 

[MajorFubar]

You can understand the manufacturer's/record companies reasoning though. They'd been bit many times investing in mediums that not enough people wanted, and they had been left with scalded fingers.

Don't forget most people see MP3s as a superior successor to CDs, not as a low-quality portable format, so what chance have you trying to peddle SACD/DVD-A?. This argument could go on and on for pages, but I'll never be convinced that any kind of additional advertising, cheap players on shelves, cheap discs in shops, glowing magazine reviews, etc etc, would ever have made SACD/DVD-A become a huge success. Most people weren't interested in re-buying all their music collection on yet another physical format which looked just like a CD. And to most of them, sounded just like a CD. And they couldn't play it on their existing hardware.

Yes, Joe Punter has invested thousands in HD TVs and HD video players, and is now being asked to do so again with 3D, but HD audio really doesn't excite enough people.

But hey at least I'm happy to hear alternative views without throwing personal insults at fellow forum contributors whom I don't know from Adam.

 

[the record spot]

Actually, MP3 was probably less understood ten years ago than SACD was as a concept. In 1999, SACD was alive and well and Sony were doing roadshows in hotels round the UK demonstrating their new format (I went to one which was interesting). The players weren't cheap, certainly, nothing like the Sony Blu-Ray players are just now, they were pitched at budget to medium level and one or two high end models, but there was no streamlined, co-ordinated effort across the board. Doomed to failure alas.

I'm still quite happy to snag some nice titles though which crop up on Amazon as and when. They were selling the RCA Living Voice SACDs for about £6 a pop some months ago. It's a niche product but a good one and thankfully one that is still supported.

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm still quite happy to snag some nice titles though which crop up on Amazon as and when. They were selling the RCA Living Voice SACDs for about £6 a pop some months ago. It's a niche product but a good one and thankfully one that is still supported.

Funny you should mention those, when I heard a demo of SACD round at my dealer's some years ago he played Also sprach Zarathustra (Chicago Symphony Orchestra) which iirc was on RCA Living Stereo. I don't know when the recording was made, but it sounded pretty damn good in his shop.

 

[manicm]

Firstly, I don't think CD players were necessarily inferior to turntables - remember the average Jack, Jill and Joe's turntables in the 80s probably sucked no end - and a CD player would have improved their system considerably. By the mid 90s there were fabulous sounding CD players that gave the equivalent priced turntable a good spinning.

Secondly MajorFubar, this is the first I've heard 'most people see MP3s as a superior successor to CDs'. Who exactly are these 'people'? I have no qualms about MP3s being able to sound great, but let's not thumbsuck.

I'm extremely tempted to return to CD - indeed I'm making more use of my Solo Mini's deck now, cos I've just realised what I've been missing soundwise. MP3s sound fab on the iPod dock though.

Streaming to me, be it by any manufacturer, still seems an experiment on the general public. Wired ethernet??? Come on! That's not to say I won't consider it, should funds and a bigger home allow, but I maintain a healthy cynicism on this technology.

 

[the record spot]

The Living Stereo recordings (of wihch there's only about 60 I think) came out in the late 50s and early 60s. Brilliant recordings though as you've heard!

 

[Anonymous]

I'd just like to chyme in with regards to Blue ray taking off and SACD not. I work in film and television and the thing that people are pre occupied with is the quality of the pictures. I see it time and time again with little regard or care about audio, that is of course unless its poor. Ironically you can broadcast something with poor pictures and people will forgive this as long as the sound is okay, the opposite is not true.

 

[MajorFubar]

Secondly MajorFubar, this is the first I've heard 'most people see MP3s as a superior successor to CDs'. Who exactly are these 'people'?

By 'superior' I meant as an overall package, including the aspect of convenience, not that everyone thinks they sound better. Most folks I know - of all ages - prefer to buy MP3s to CDs. In fact it was only last week when a colleague at work (he's 29, discuss if his youth is material...) said quite openly to me, "I don't know why they make CDs anymore. Nobody buys them do they? MP3s are far better. I can like get over 2000 on my phone...". You only need to look at the fact that CD sales have collapsed at the onslaught of MP3 downloads, which dominate the sales of popular music.