Technics SL1500C & AT-VM95ML - capacitance issue?

[Entrigo]

Hi all

Trying to figure out if I have a SQ issue in my set up, deriving by a possible capacitance mismatch.

Set-up:
Technics SL1500C TT
AT-VM95ML cartridge
Marantz PM7200 amp

I understand the Technics phono stage has a higher capacitance than the AT95ML needs, being aimed Ortofon carts.

I also read that the Marantz internal phono stage has even higher capacitance.

I have tried both the Marantz internal phono and the Technics own preamp and in neither case I am getting any sibilance or other "serious" issues as apparently a capacitance mismatch should cause.

I noticed little difference between the two (currently using the Technics as it sounds marginally better) - Records sound "good enough": better than on my old AT-LP-5 with the AT95ML cartridge and better than the Technics with the factory fitted Ortofon Red.

But, the bug still remains - is this potential capacitance issue affecting the overall SQ?

I once heard that a good measure of whether you are getting the best out of your TT set-up is if records sound better than CDs. Not sure how much to believe this but, after doing 3 or 4 A-B comparisons, none of the records sounded better than the respective CD versions.

Thoughts?

Any easy way (that doesn't involve measuring sound with studio/lab equipment) to determine whether there is an issue with capacitance or whatever?

Also - would using an external phono stage (budget around £200 as saving for amp upgrade - most likely Rega Elex) make a significant difference?

Any other advice - apart from changing to an Ortofon black /bronze (I like the AT95ML)?

 

[skinnypuppy71]

I wouldn't get to hung-up on the capacitance matching up....my njc phono stage has variable capacitance loading and it barely makes any difference from one setting to the next......if you want quality sound from your turntable, then I would suggest a cartridge upgrade, starting with something like a goldring g1042 or upwards in the ladder. You should be closer to your goal then.

 

[abacus]

If it sounds right to your ears that's all that matters.
Generally, a turntable lead has about 100pF and an amp also about 100pF, which is fine for most cartridges.
In the old days capacitance was more of an issue (EG. Shure cartridges required higher capacitance for best performance) but not so much these days, so don't worry about it.

Bill

 

[nopiano]

Your ML should sound much clearer than the deliberately mellow-toned 2M Red.

Care in setting the tracking weight and antiskate is often rewarded by better results. Does your Technics have an arm height adjustment, I can’t recall?

My slightly different SL-1210 does and I recall I raised or lowered it slightly with the same cartridge. In my case the factory dials were pretty much bang on, even checking with two different stylus scales. I didn’t even think about capacitance, using the MM stage in my Linn Akurate and some nice flexible interconnects rather than the boxed set.

I wouldn’t worry, but I would avoid the 2M Black as it’s notoriously finicky on set up and seems too pricy for the arm. The Bronze was on my radar but the much cheaper ML is excellent to my ears.

 

[Al ears]

Capacitance should not be an issue with that cartridge. You already have two phono preamps so buying another one isn't going to solve any issues.

 

[daytona600]

Correct loading will affect sound quality by a huge margin
MC moving coil carts are immune to Capacitance
MI moving iron carts - grado , soundsmith are immune to capacitance
MM moving magnet need very careful Capacitance matching
add cap in phono stage + phono cables unless using a current source transimedance phono stage
Ideal world you should have plenty of settings on your phono stage

Hagerman Technology LLC: Cartridge Loading

 

[Gray]

I understand the Technics phono stage has a higher capacitance than the AT95ML needs, being aimed Ortofon carts.

I also read that the Marantz internal phono stage has even higher capacitance.

You could confirm the actual capacitance figures - but, like others, I wouldn't worry about it.
I used to own an Ortofon VMS cartridge and later read that the Variable Magnetic Shunt made it susceptible to the capacitive loading. It did. My Harman Kardon amp had a cap trim switch to vary the capacitance - and that certainly affected the high frequencies.
But I doubt you'll be suffering any mismatch - I'm not surprised you heard little difference when comparing.

As for cartridge and phono stage 'upgrades', "the grass is always greener."
All I can say is that a couple of us here did a bit of genuinely blind testing of both.
We were hard pushed to hear differences - that we would have bet on being obvious.
(All upgrades would be better chosen using ears only - with no idea of prices).

 

[Entrigo]

Well... Just did another very quick A-B comparison of Baby Lemonade from Syd Barrett's first album and goodness yes, the LP highs (guitar in the intro) are definitely rolled off. They are much sharper on the CD - the latter has also much more presence. When the drums kick in, on the record it's almost muffled compared to the digital version (also tried the lossless from Apple music, much like the CD)

Once I got on with listening I guess I adjusted and it sounded good enough but I can't quite unhear it...

And it also kinda put me off listening to records now 😬. Anyway, now looking at a Rega Fono or an Elex-R (have been thinking about the latter for quite some time anyway).

 

[Entrigo]

On further testing, switching to the Marantz internal phono, sounds more like the CD/HiRes digital version. The Technics own phono sound warmer and smoother - which is probably what I liked at first , without really knowing what I was looking for - but less detailed and definitely rolled off.

In short, not overly impressed with the Technics own preamp.

Might be able to survive with the Marantz for the time being.

 

[Al ears]

Correct loading will affect sound quality by a huge margin
MC moving coil carts are immune to Capacitance
MI moving iron carts - grado , soundsmith are immune to capacitance
MM moving magnet need very careful Capacitance matching
add cap in phono stage + phono cables unless using a current source transimedance phono stage
Ideal world you should have plenty of settings on your phono stage

Hagerman Technology LLC: Cartridge Loading

View attachment 8090

On further testing, switching to the Marantz internal phono, sounds more like the CD/HiRes digital version. The Technics own phono sound warmer and smoother - which is probably what I liked at first , without really knowing what I was looking for - but less detailed and definitely rolled off.

In short, not overly impressed with the Technics own preamp.

Might be able to survive with the Marantz for the time being.

It is normally the case that internal Phono stages are better than the versions fitted to turntables

 

[Entrigo]

It is normally the case that internal Phono stages are better than the versions fitted to turntables

Yes I expected that but - lacking many reviews, had read someone saying it would be better than any budget dedicated phono stage. Maybe they meant budget as in under £50?

 

[Al ears]

Yes I expected that but - lacking many reviews, had read someone saying it would be better than any budget dedicated phono stage. Maybe they meant budget as in under £50?

Probably.
Any phono stage under £100 is obviously going to have its limitations.
That said certain manufacturers pride themselves on the quality of their internal phono stages and it shows they are not there as a mere afterthought.

 

[Entrigo]

Probably.
Any phono stage under £100 is obviously going to have its limitations.
That said certain manufacturers pride themselves on the quality of their internal phono stages and it shows they are not there as a mere afterthought.

Yes. I think Marantz tends to be one of these, going by what I am reading. And as per my last test, it seems better than the Technics. I am now very curious to see how much actual difference a £200 dedicated stage will make - especially to my not super refined ears! Will report back...

 

[Al ears]

Yes. I think Marantz tends to be one of these, going by what I am reading. And as per my last test, it seems better than the Technics. I am now very curious to see how much actual difference a £200 dedicated stage will make - especially to my not super refined ears! Will report back...

The Marantz inbuilt phono stage is good.
You'll probably find you hear a bigger difference by spending that £200 on a cartridge upgrade.... But who am I to tell you how to spend your money.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Your probably looking at around £550 and upwards for better performance from a external phono stage than a good onboard mm unit........my little njc unit is very good for just under £600.....with some useful features and if you ever decide to go down the moving coil route, the guys at njc also sell a matching step-up transformer,,, it's not cheap at £749, but thier kit is exemplary, built to order in good ol blighty....I use all of there kit around the house..oh and no I don't work for them or have associated links...just a happy customer of there's.lol

 

[Al ears]

Your probably looking at around £550 and upwards for better performance from a external phono stage than a good onboard mm unit........my little njc unit is very good for just under £600.....with some useful features and if you ever decide to go down the moving coil route, the guys at njc also sell a matching step-up transformer,,, it's not cheap at £749, but thier kit is exemplary, built to order in good ol blighty....I use all of there kit around the house..oh and no I don't work for them or have associated links...just a happy customer of there's.lol

So why mention njc when OP hasn't even mention MC cartridges nor spending that sort of money??
Nor does he need a step up transformer.
I could have promoted my Tom Evans gear but I haven't because it's entirely inappropriate.....