swap LP12( valhalla) for a Gyrodec SE : good idea ???

[Captain Duff]

..."Marvelled at the idiots like the bloke who wanted to buy as many LP12 outer platters as possible to araldite each of his entire LP collection (two for each LP) to it's own for extra flatness and rigidity."

Please tell me that's an urban myth!

 

[MajorFubar]

I think that the LP12 does stand up on its own merit when compared to other tt's that are likely to be stocked in specialised hi-fi dealerships. TT's such as the Pro-ject and Rega ones. Where it doesn't stand on its own merit is in tt's that you are highly unlikely to find in your local specialised hi-fi dealership: modded Lenco, Pioneer Exclusive, Sony TTS-x000 series or PSX-9, JVC TT-101 etc etc etc

I think you're right. This shouldn't be a Linn-bashing thread, but it isn't the only ride at the fair, yet many of those TTs you've mentioned are hardly ever reviewed and rated with any seriousness in the UK. In fact I think it's fair to say that with only one or two exceptions, Jap TTs seemed to be viewed as a bit of a joke amongst the HiFi press, certainly by the time I started properly reading HiFi mags as a teenager in 1985.

 

[CnoEvil]

In the interest of balance, which undermines my own argument, and very much supports that of Chebby and Lindsay, here is a long but interesting article, which might be of interest to the OP:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linn.html

I loved the sound of the LP12, especially as I think it's combination with the Naims of the time, cancelled out the weaknesses of both, while maximizing their strengths....and its certainly true that I have an emotional bias towards it, which to be fair, I've never hidden.

 

[relocated]

I never ever understood the LP12 thing, it always sounded false in the early days and we all know why that was.

My Technics SL10 was so much better than the Linn when it came out but was only ever appreciated when 'blind' auditioned. It still works and has never been back to a dealer and I got one of the first in the UK. Friends of mine also never got Linns and purchased conventional TT from the likes of Pioneer and Micro Seiki, their kit is still running without dealer tune-ups.

You have to give credit to Linn. They managed to create a following, that still endures, and built a big business out of the 'Kings new clothes'.

 

[chebby]

My Technics SL10 was so much better than the Linn when it came out but was only ever appreciated when 'blind' auditioned.

The SL10 was excellent. I still get moments where I'd buy a mint one if I came across it on ebay by chance. (Event though I gave up playing vinyl a few years ago.) Ortofon still do cartridges that would fit it.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm probably not qualified to talk as I've not heard the Gyro or LP12.

Purely from logic, if the LP12 is a little too rich and the Gyro, according to one post on here, lack a little warmth the surely a change of cartridge is the simpliest way of solving the issue.

Even on my budget Pro-ject a change from Ortofon to ClearAudio made fairly significant difference when it came to tonal changes. Going back to the logical aspect, if those changes can be heard on a (relatively) cheapo deck, then those differences should be more pronounced on a really good quality TT. Think experiementing with cartridges is the first step IMO.

 

[John Duncan]

My main problem with the LP12 is that it still looks like it was designed in 1972...

 

[plastic penguin]

That could be aimed at Thorens as well. For me a bit of retro isn't a bad thing, but it's about striking a visual and sonic balance.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm probably not qualified to talk as I've not heard the Gyro or LP12.

Purely from logic, if the LP12 is a little too rich and the Gyro, according to one post on here, lack a little warmth the surely a change of cartridge is the simpliest way of solving the issue.

Even on my budget Pro-ject a change from Ortofon to ClearAudio made fairly significant difference when it came to tonal changes. Going back to the logical aspect, if those changes can be heard on a (relatively) cheapo deck, then those differences should be more pronounced on a really good quality TT. Think experiementing with cartridges is the first step IMO.

I may have owned an LP12, but my knowledge is now out of date, as I haven't directly compared it to the excellent offerings from the likes of Michell, Roksan, VPI, Avid, Oracle, Nottingham Analogue TTs or Clearaudio.

I recommend the LP12 because I like the way it sounds, but if you read the article I linked to in my last post, it claims the Linn is based on a now "out of date" design, which has fundamental shortcomings that can't be overcome, no matter how much you tinker around the edges (eg. cartridge)....in other words, it's the difference between a refinement and a fundamental improvement.

A product can be subjectively superior, but objectively inferior, which makes the whole argument academic, as one should buy on enjoyment and not technical specs....hence the need to demo. As you know, buying on reputation alone is a recipe for disaster.

 

[lindsayt]

In the interest of balance, which undermines my own argument, and very much supports that of Chebby and Lindsay, here is a long but interesting article, which might be of interest to the OP: http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linn.html I loved the sound of the LP12, especially as I think it's combination with the Naims of the time, cancelled out the weaknesses of both, while maximizing their strengths....and its certainly true that I have an emotional bias towards it, which to be fair, I've never hidden.

Excellent post CnoEvil.

I agree with Arthur Salvatore's assessment of the LP12 in that it's a "Class C (Lower)" tt on his scale. The LP12 SE might well get into Class B. Class C (Lower) is no disgrace and ranks it better than many tt's.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm probably not qualified to talk as I've not heard the Gyro or LP12.

Purely from logic, if the LP12 is a little too rich and the Gyro, according to one post on here, lack a little warmth the surely a change of cartridge is the simpliest way of solving the issue.

Even on my budget Pro-ject a change from Ortofon to ClearAudio made fairly significant difference when it came to tonal changes. Going back to the logical aspect, if those changes can be heard on a (relatively) cheapo deck, then those differences should be more pronounced on a really good quality TT. Think experiementing with cartridges is the first step IMO.

I may have owned an LP12, but my knowledge is now out of date, as I haven't directly compared it to the excellent offerings from the likes of Michell, Roksan, VPI, Avid, Oracle, Nottingham Analogue TTs or Clearaudio. I recommend the LP12 because I like the way it sounds, but if you read the article I linked to in my last post, it claims the Linn is based on a now "out of date" design, which has fundamental shortcomings that can't be overcome, no matter how much you tinker around the edges (eg. cartridge)....in other words, it's the difference between a refinement and a fundamental improvement. A product can be subjectively superior, but objectively inferior, which makes the whole argument academic, as one should buy on enjoyment and not technical specs....hence the need to demo. As you know, buying on reputation alone is a recipe for disaster.

It was only suggestion based on my own limited deck knowledge. Demoing different carts could be a easy (and cheap) way of changing the tonal balnce, rather than spending shed-loads on a new TT. Given the OP said: "I am not unhappy with the Linn but I do find it a bit thick in the lower mid/upper base..." a cart may change the bass dynamics and make it a little airy. As you rightly pointed out, especially at those prices, pestering a good dealer will discover whether the LP12 can be changed to his liking.

 

[CnoEvil]

Excellent post CnoEvil.

I agree with Arthur Salvatore's assessment of the LP12 in that it's a "Class C (Lower)" tt on his scale. The LP12 SE might well get into Class B. Class C (Lower) is no disgrace and ranks it better than many tt's.

Thx Lindsay.

Everyone has a built-in bias based on their experience/preference.....and my experience re TTs stopped in the mid 80s, as once I bought the LP12, I stopped looking.

Since the early 90s, I wasn't interested in TTs, so only heard the odd ones at shows or demo days. I have heard a modern fully modded LP12 and really liked it...but that was in isolation.

I try (not always successfully) to give accurate, comprehensive and relevant (to the individual) advice, but one's own preference often creeps in.

Cno

 

[CnoEvil]

It was only suggestion based on my own limited deck knowledge. Demoing different carts could be a easy (and cheap) way of changing the tonal balnce, rather than spending shed-loads on a new TT. Given the OP said: "I am not unhappy with the Linn but I do find it a bit thick in the lower mid/upper base..." a cart may change the bass dynamics and make it a little airy. As you rightly pointed out, especially at those prices, pestering a good dealer will discover whether the LP12 can be changed to his liking.

Please don't take my reply as a criticism of your suggestion....rather an observation that there is a certain characteristic to the sound that may always be there, due to the design....which is fine provided you mostly like the sound and want to tweak it, rather than fundamentally change it.

I think the old rule still applies ie. the Deck is more important than the Arm, and the Arm is more important than the Cartridge.

 

[plastic penguin]

It was only suggestion based on my own limited deck knowledge. Demoing different carts could be a easy (and cheap) way of changing the tonal balnce, rather than spending shed-loads on a new TT. Given the OP said: "I am not unhappy with the Linn but I do find it a bit thick in the lower mid/upper base..." a cart may change the bass dynamics and make it a little airy. As you rightly pointed out, especially at those prices, pestering a good dealer will discover whether the LP12 can be changed to his liking.

Please don't take my reply as a criticism of your suggestion....rather an observation that there is a certain characteristic to the sound that may always be there, due to the design....which is fine provided you mostly like the sound and want to tweak it, rather than fundamentally change it. I think the old rule still applies ie. the Deck is more important than the Arm, and the Arm is more important than the Cartridge.

I didn't take it as a critism, Cno... no way. Of course every component has its own distinct sonic signature. Also I concur that a cartridge, in the grand scheme of things, generally comes at the bottom of the pile.

That said, when I looked at a cartridge upgrade - it was an initial small tweak - I tried the ClearAudio which retailed at the time £110, then I tried a Ortofon (not sure of the model) which retailed at £90 but preferred the overall character of the CA. It was long morning spent at the dealers (Infidelity) but the uplift was bigger than expected. Although it isn't huge over the £90 Ortofon it certainly justified the extra £20.

Of course you won't change a rich, emotional sound into a bright clinical one, but you can influence small tonal changes which may suffice given the OP's concerns over the LP12.

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is Stereophiles list of recommended TTs for 2012 (their current view of the Linn - 6th one down in catagory A), with further links at the bottom of the review:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/2012-recommended-components-turntables-tonearms-cartridges-etc

Sorry for the excess of info, but I'm a bit immobilized at the moment, and so have the time to indulge my obsessive nature. Blokes and their hobbies eh. It's no wonder our women folk look at us, more in sorrow than in anger!

 

[chebby]

Here is Stereophiles list of recommended TTs for 2012 (their current view of the Linn - 6th one down in catagory A), with further links at the bottom of the review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/2012-recommended-components-turntables-tonearms-cartridges-etc

And just look at group B with the Rega RP3 holding it's own, despite costing a mere fraction of all the others in the same group.

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is Stereophiles list of recommended TTs for 2012 (their current view of the Linn - 6th one down in catagory A), with further links at the bottom of the review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/2012-recommended-components-turntables-tonearms-cartridges-etc

And just look at group B with the Rega RP3 holding it's own, despite costing a mere fraction of all the others in the same group.

Yup, and not a Michell or Roksan in sight!

 

[plastic penguin]

It's no wonder our women folk look at us, more in sorrow than in anger!

With Mrs. P it's more a look of dismay.

 

[CnoEvil]

It's no wonder our women folk look at us, more in sorrow than in anger!

With Mrs. P it's more a look of dismay.

....better than derision, I suppose.

 

[rrm]

OP here. I guess I have started a raging debate about the merits, history and politics of the LP 12.That wasnt my intention!

I read here a lot of interesting stuff about the LP 12 ,about which I alrady have an opinion, but next to nothing about the gyrodec, which is where I was seeking enlightenment.Was hoping to hear from some Michell owners, particularly if they also had some experience of the Linn, who could point out what they gained or lost.

I note the comment about changing cartridges to tailor the sound of the Linn.I already tried that by going with a lean Clearaudio MM

but was ultimately not satisfied.I prefer the Shelter even though it is a bit lush on my LP 12.

 

[lindsayt]

If you want to go for a Michell, could you get a 2nd hand Orbe instead of the Gyrodec?