swap LP12( valhalla) for a Gyrodec SE : good idea ???

[rrm]

I have an LP 12(valhalla, pre cirkus)/ittok/Shelter 501 and like it but get concerned about the well -known mid base bloat & maintenance costs (linn dealer tune ups).

Saw a used gyrodec SE for sale. Its something I have always fancied but been reluctant to jump in and buy.I cant audition the gyro dec with my cartridge( which I want to keep) so it is hard to make a comparison.Was wondering what would I gain and what would I lose, sonically and maintenance-wise, if I go for the michell.

 

[CnoEvil]

Are you happy with the Linn or is there any aspect of its performance that you're not happy with?

 

[rrm]

hi Cno

I am not unhappy with the Linn but I do find it a bit thick in the lower mid/upper base and there is a low level noise floor that I can't help think could/ should be lower. I would like something just a bit cleaner sounding without losing the emotion. And then there is the constant concern about set up/suspension being right, if you move it,say driving it home after the dealer has done his tuneup tricks.

 

[Frank Harvey]

A Gyro will certainly clean things up a bit over an LP12, and you won't need to worry about ongoing services and setups. You may lose a little emotion though - you'll need to have a listen to see how that side of it fairs as it has been over 15 years since I owned mine.

As long as the right choice is made with the arm and cartridge, it might be a good move, but that decision is for you to make 🙂

 

[MajorFubar]

...then there is the constant concern about set up/suspension being right, if you move it,say driving it home after the dealer has done his tuneup tricks.

...most of which is dealer-induced paranioa and snake-oil to make you keep coming back and emptying your wallet. Or to put it another way, it's a con.

I say, have a go with the Gyro.

(Ooo I'm a poet and I didn't know it.)

 

[KeithT]

If I was you I'd buy a Townsend Rock.

Me biased?

No, not in the slightest. 😳

Oh alright - yes I am. Very clean neutral rock soild sound.

 

[iceman16]

I used to have a gyro se for a couple of years.IME, the gyro is a bit lean but clean in presentation compared to linn which is warm.I may suggest that you should get a warmer sounding cartridge if you go for the gyro(Lyra)otherwise the gyro would sound almost like a cdp. 🙂

 

[CnoEvil]

hi Cno

I am not unhappy with the Linn but I do find it a bit thick in the lower mid/upper base and there is a low level noise floor that I can't help think could/ should be lower. I would like something just a bit cleaner sounding without losing the emotion. And then there is the constant concern about set up/suspension being right, if you move it,say driving it home after the dealer has done his tuneup tricks.

There has been some good advice given above......my advice is based on what I'd do, and that is gradually bring the LP12 up to a more modern spec, which gives a cleaner sound than the older decks, but still very musical and organic.....ie. The best of both worlds.

If possible I would try and get a friendly Linn dealer to allow you to hear what a modern LP12 sounds like.......I'm biased though as I owned an 80s Sondek.

 

[lindsayt]

The trouble with bringing the LP12 up to moder spec is the pricing:

Trampolin £160

Keel £2450

Radikal £2800

Ekos Se £3700

Urika £2350 or £1750 if bought at the same time as a Radikal

Akiva £2370 with possible discount if you have a Linn MC cartridge to trade-in against it

If you buy 2nd hand you can expect to get them about 30% to 40% cheaper.

After spending all that money do you get something that sounds better than a Pioneer Exclusive P3a or EMT 950?

 

[CnoEvil]

The trouble with bringing the LP12 up to moder spec is the pricing:

Trampolin £160

Keel £2450

Radikal £2800

Ekos Se £3700

Urika £2350 or £1750 if bought at the same time as a Radikal

Akiva £2370 with possible discount if you have a Linn MC cartridge to trade-in against it

It looks like it will be very gradually then! :O

 

[alchemist 1]

The gyro looks an absolute bargin then, compared too linns prices. :O

 

[alchemist 1]

The gyro looks an absolute bargin then, compared too linns prices. :O

 

[CnoEvil]

If you haven't seen this, it might be of (academic) interest:
http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/1103linn/index.html

 

[chebby]

If you haven't seen this, it might be of (academic) interest: http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/1103linn/index.html

The 2nd paragraph in your linked article was spot on...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-11484322

 

[CnoEvil]

If you haven't seen this, it might be of (academic) interest: http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/1103linn/index.html

The 2nd paragraph in your linked article was spot on...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-11484322

Ivor Tiefenbrun, Peter Qvortrup and Antony Michaelson are all outspoken eccentrics.....who just happen to make great stuff.....maybe there's a connection.

 

[chebby]

Ivor Tiefenbrun, Peter Qvortrup and Antony Michaelson are all outspoken eccentrics.....who just happen to make great stuff.....maybe there's a connection.

I've always thought of Ivor Tiefenbrun as a publicist rather than someone who invented or designed anything truly radical. The LP12 was very closely modelled on the Ariston RD11s (that Ivor's father was manufacturing components for - from his company Castle Precision Engineering - at the same time the LP12 was developed).

The Ariston was in turn based on the Thorens TD150, and all of them were inspired by the AR (Acoustic Research) turntable of the early 1960s designed by Ed Villchur. (Who cited previous examples of suspended sub-chassis/belt drive TTs from the 1950s that he based his own on.)

There has been a lot of old 'hooey' about the supposedly 'legendary' Linn LP12/Sondek. (Most of it generated by Ivor Tiefenbrun himself over the decades and much of it systematically de-bunked.)

His biggest trick was convincing the (hi-fi) world that he was a maverick/pioneer/innovator by pushing a 'philosophy' that the rest of the hi-fi community resisted. (In reality the shelves of dealers - and customers - and the hi-fi mag reviews already reflected that the argument had been accepted long before Ivor T and his LP12 came along.)

 

[CnoEvil]

Ivor Tiefenbrun, Peter Qvortrup and Antony Michaelson are all outspoken eccentrics.....who just happen to make great stuff.....maybe there's a connection.

I've always thought of Ivor Tiefenbrun as a publicist rather than someone who invented or designed anything truly radical. The LP12 was very closely modelled on the Ariston RD11s (that Ivor's father was manufacturing components for - from his company Castle Precision Engineering - at the same time the LP12 was developed).

The Ariston was in turn based on the Thorens TD150, and all of them were inspired by the AR (Acoustic Research) turntable of the early 1960s designed by Ed Villchur. (Who cited previous examples of suspended sub-chassis/belt drive TTs from the 1950s that he based his own on.)

There has been a lot of old 'hooey' about the supposedly 'legendary' Linn LP12/Sondek. (Most of it generated by Ivor Tiefenbrun himself over the decades and much of it systematically de-bunked.)

His biggest trick was convincing the (hi-fi) world that he was a maverick/pioneer/innovator by pushing a 'philosophy' that the rest of the hi-fi community resisted. (In reality the shelves of dealers - and customers - and the hi-fi mag reviews already reflected that the argument had been accepted long before Ivor T and his LP12 came along.)

There may be a lot of truth in what you say, but if the LP12 did not stand up on its own merit, it would not have survived (in its various updated forms) for such a long time.....it would have long since been relegated to its place in the hi-fidelity graveyard, rather than still be receiving acclaim over 40 years after its inception.

 

[chebby]

There may be a lot of truth in what you say, but if the LP12 did not stand up on its own merit, it would not have survived (in its various updated forms) for such a long time...

Hence the need for a Guru (self proclaimed or not) and followers. (Sound familiar?)

This is why Ivor T went on some Mao style long march/crusade with his 'message' to get in every dealers face, to get him and his product noticed by all the mags (any publicity is good...etc.) and stir up 'controversy' where there wasn't really any before.

If it had just been 'punted' out there as just another suspended turntable (from an entirely new company with very little advertising money and no 'clout' with hi-fi mags) then it would have probably never have been seen again. Thorens (especially) and others already had the high status, suspended sub-chassis, belt drive turntable market sewn up with highly respected products. (Ones that didn't need annual services or tune-ups at 'Kliniks' to adjust the suspension and tighten everything again.)

It's longevity is, largely, down to Linn's dogma/philosophy/influence during the first 15 years of it's life (and the unholy trinity of Linn, Naim and a large wedge of new hi-fi writers who wanted to make an impact at a time when hi-fi sales across the board skyrocketed to unprecedented levels along with magazine sales) rather then any superior engineering or a particularly radical design.

 

[CnoEvil]

It's longevity is, largely, down to Linn's dogma/philosophy/influence during the first 15 years of it's life (and the unholy trinity of Linn, Naim and a large wedge of new hi-fi writers who wanted to make an impact at a time when hi-fi sales across the board skyrocketed to unprecendentd levels along with magazine sales) rather then any superior engineering or a particularly radical design.

That argument "can" be made back when Linn/Naim ruled the roost and vinyl was king. There is no doubt that great TTs (like Pink Triangle) didn't get the recognition they deserved...but that doesn't mean that the Linn/Naim partnership didn't sound good. The lucrative partnership split when Linn started making its own amps.

Now in the digital age, with TTs very much taking a back seat in the niche end of the market, I don't think this argument is so strong.

I don't believe that almost every current hifi magazine is still under Ivor T's spell. Have you heard a recent incarnation of the LP12?

FWIW You are probably aware that I don't particularly like the current Naim products or Linn amps, but there was imo something that worked back then, when the two were combined....I knew precisely the sound I was after and so ended up with half of the dealer's speakers (eg. Epos ES 14, Kef 103/3, Linn Kan, Heybrook HB2) in my room before settling on the MA 852.

 

[chebby]

I don't think this argument is so strong. I don't believe that almost every current hifi magazine is still under Ivor T's spell.

Of course not.

That's why I qualified it by saying the first 15 years. Plenty of time to build up a following who will keep coming back for every LP12 upgrade for decades to come. (And enough time to consolidate and start a range of speakers then amps and CD players.)

Yes I have heard Linn Sondeks on numerous occasions since about 1983 onwards. The last time was about a year ago when my local dealer had a very recent one set-up for demo. (Commission sale for a customer.) Still don't like 'em. If I had the same money for a TT i'd buy a really good Thorens.

Never liked Linn's earlier speakers either. Saras and Isobariks alike. Bass like someone hitting you over the head with a rubber covered housebrick!

 

[CnoEvil]

I don't think this argument is so strong. I don't believe that almost every current hifi magazine is still under Ivor T's spell.

Of course not.

That's why I qualified it by saying the first 15 years. Plenty of time to build up a following who will keep coming back for every LP12 upgrade for decades to come. (And enough time to consolidate and start a range of speakers then amps and CD players.)

Yes I have heard Linn Sondeks on numerous occasions since about 1983 onwards. The last time was about a year ago when my local dealer had a very recent one set-up for demo. (Commission sale for a customer.) Still don't like 'em. If I had the same money for a TT i'd buy a really good Thorens.

Never liked Linn's earlier speakers either. Saras and Isobariks alike. Bass like someone hitting you over the head with a rubber covered housebrick!

The people who were old enough to get sucked in, bought them back then and so have no need to keep coming back...and everyone else is too young to have been affected! :shifty:

It also doesn't explain why they are still being recommended, as I assume today's reviewers are giving untainted opinions. The TT market is too small and competitive for an overpriced under-performing product to survive....though of course, I could be wrong!

 

[chebby]

Well i've never liked what the man said, never liked the product (first heard before I knew it's story), met enough Linn/Naim devotees and got sick to the back teeth of the relentless hype in the 1980s.

Marvelled at the idiots like the bloke who wanted to buy as many LP12 outer platters as possible to araldite each of his entire LP collection (two for each LP) to it's own for extra flatness and rigidity. (Although he probably only had 'Face Value', an audiophile pressing of 'Friday Night in San Francisco' and 'A Walk Across The Rooftops' if my local Linn dealer's demo disks were anything to go by back then!)

Marvelled also at how even a basic LP12 is now £2700 (not including the extra £150 for it's lidhttp://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=8681) and goes up to about £15K. (It may be even more now for a max'ed out spec. Sondek.) Incredible given that it cost £86 back in 1974 just a year after launch.

 

[MajorFubar]

...Incredible given that it cost £86 back in 1974 just a year after launch.

Absolutely. I was four when I went into my local HiFi dealers with my dad to audition a new TT. There were only two he was interested in: the LP12 and the TD160. The LP12 was around £85 (as you said) and the TD160 he came out with - the very same one I still own - was just about a tenner cheaper I think, though my memory is hazy (especially seeing that I was only four). Mind you a tenner then is knocking-on-the-door of £100 now I wager.

 

[CnoEvil]

Marvelled also at how even a basic LP12 is now £2700 (not including the extra £150 for it's lidhttp://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=8681) and goes up to about £15K. (It may be even more now for a max'ed out spec. Sondek.) Incredible given that it cost £86 back in 1974 just a year after launch.

...and yet they sell.

When I got mine, it was about £900 with arm and cartridge....it went to a friend on the birth of my first child in the early 90s, and I don't really miss it. The current cost is mind boggling, I'll give you that.

 

[lindsayt]

There may be a lot of truth in what you say, but if the LP12 did not stand up on its own merit, it would not have survived (in its various updated forms) for such a long time.....it would have long since been relegated to its place in the hi-fidelity graveyard, rather than still be receiving acclaim over 40 years after its inception.

I think that the LP12 does stand up on its own merit when compared to other tt's that are likely to be stocked in specialised hi-fi dealerships. TT's such as the Pro-ject and Rega ones. Where it doesn't stand on its own merit is in tt's that you are highly unlikely to find in your local specialised hi-fi dealership: modded Lenco, Pioneer Exclusive, Sony TTS-x000 series or PSX-9, JVC TT-101 etc etc etc

What you have with the LP12 is a huge amount of marketing inertia that was created in the 1970's and 1980's. Inertia that has been on the wane for a few years now as more and more Linn owners have tried other tt's which they've found they prefer. The LP12 has almost become a right of passage where so many people own one before moving onto something else.