Sub and Standmounts or floorstanders?

admin_exported

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Hi everybody, Sorry if I've been creating lots of threads recently, but there are a number of questions I want to ask! I've been wanting some new speakers for a while now (the Wharfys will go to good use) and I'm a little stuck for what ones to choose. I prioritse neutrality and faithful reproduction over massive amounts of bass or a "warm" sound. This is why I want some speakers like the ProAc Tablette Reference 8 or PMC DB1 or even those Spendor S3/5R speakers. However, my father who listens to my system just as much as me wants far more bass than such speakers could deliver. He even wants more bass than my Wharfedale floorstanders at 35hz -3db can do! So, is it best for me to give in and buy some floorstanders (remember my room is only 14"x9" and the floorstanders are along the long wall) or (this is my idea) buy some small standmounts and add a subwoofer? Cheers! oh, and dad likes his music very loud and thinks that a "soundstage" is just something I made up....
 

Thaiman

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[quote user="Hughes123"]He even wants more bass than my Wharfedale floorstanders at 35hz -3db can do! [/quote]

Let me tell you something mate....regardless of the number written in the back of speakers, you ears can only hear down to 50hz! (you could be batman I suppose if that is the case then employ me as a Robin)

My (old
emotion-5.gif
) Amphion can go as low as 25hz but then that more of a feeling the bass rather than hearing the bass. I would try to get a natural tuneful bass pair like the DB1 or Rega, Totem.
 
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Anonymous

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I know you can't hear the bass, but I guess he wants to "hear" it...his argument is that when you spend in excess of a grand on speakers you want them to be full range...annoying I know, but unless I want to stick with my Wharfeys forever, I think I'm gonna have to face it...he says you can't get the "kick" of drums on my speakers...I guess I do agree to some extent.
 

Thaiman

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[quote user="Hughes123"]his argument is that when you spend in excess of a grand on speakers you want them to be full range[/quote]

= 2 ways drivers, 50 Hz and cost £2500. One of the best bass preformance out there! I sold them because I need a bit more details....regret it big time.

I suppose if you are after such a bang for your cash but a very good bang then have a look at Triangles Antal, full range drives and sound fun, fun, fun. should go very well with the Arcam too.
 
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Anonymous

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He has one at work! A JVC A-X5 with Wharfedale E70 speakers and a Marantz 63 Cd player in a massive 12ft room thats 25ft by 30ft! But oh no...mine's so much better apparently! His house one is that silly Bose Ipod dock thing.
 
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Anonymous

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The generally accepted 'frequency response' of the human ear is 20hz to 20Khz (the upper decreasing with age).

That's one small room to want to put either a big floorstander OR a subwoofer into IMO. But I am no more innocent right now (still waiting on a new place). Why not try a pair of GS-60's from monitor audio? they have bass 'o plenty, they'd be way too big for your room though. Having said that, you'll have trouble putting a sub anywhere that doesn't make it boom like nobodies business - you essentially be making you entire room a subwoofer hehe. That door is a rather oversized bass port IMHO:)
 

Thaiman

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[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]The generally accepted 'frequency response' of the human ear is 20hz to 20Khz [/quote]

emotion-8.gif


I have been talking to a few speakers's engineers in the past and they all think otherwise....may be I am wrong.
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]you essentially be making you entire room a subwoofer hehe. That door is a rather oversized bass port IMHO:)[/quote]

Well it would be a completly sealed sub, because opening the door of my room wrecks the sound!
 

JoelSim

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The ProAcs have plenty of bass for me and I love a bit of dance music. My view would be go for some and if he wants more then add a sub. They go plenty loud enough to upset all the neighbours too.
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="Thaiman"]
[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]The generally accepted 'frequency response' of the human ear is 20hz to 20Khz [/quote]

emotion-8.gif


I have been talking to a few speakers's engineers in the past and they all think otherwise....may be I am wrong.

[/quote]

i have to agree with Mr_P there - 20Hz - 20kHz is the generally accepted limits if human hearing (albeit a rather convenient generalisation).
hughes try and check out some T+A speakers as they have some particularly good bass response - even the standmounts - my T+A Spectrum ADL III's (standmounts) are specified as going down to 18Hz!!! whether that figure is exact i cant be sure but they produce lower freq's than my bass guitar amp and rattle windows with ease so im guessing its close... i also have a smallish listening room but they fit quite well!
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"]my T+A Spectrum ADL III[/quote]

Googled, and no results...
 
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Anonymous

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lol, yeah you probably wont find anything about my speakers (except some of them do crop up every now and again on the german ebay). My speakers are now 23 years old and T+A is a german company. Google T+A or visit their site here:
http://www.taelektroakustik.de/eng/index.htm

and check out the Criterion TR400 - looks like it might be what you are looking for... they have a list of their UK distributors on the site.
 
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Anonymous

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You should consider getting a pair of really nice standmounts and add a decent sub (REL is my personal fav) for your old man. That way, you can listen to your music without the sub & enjoy a more clinical sound...and when your Dad listens you can add the sub to the mix and he'll be happy.
 

drummerman

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Hughes123, why dont you choose something in between? Consider a proper stand mount with a reasonable sized bass unit of good quality as an alternative.

I can tell you that your FMJ makes nice music with Dynaudio's 52. I have heard that combination many times and know that a few customers have changed their mind with regards to speakers once they demoed the two. They have an open, clear and engaging sound with proper tuneful, unforced bass that only a reasonable sized speaker/bass unit can produce. 'Super miniatures' have their limitations. There is only so much you can get from a tiny enclosure with a beer mat sized driver.

I'd be amazed if you still hanker after a sub with the 52's
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="brock_boogie"]
You should consider getting a pair of really nice standmounts and add a decent sub (REL is my personal fav) for your old man. That way, you can listen to your music without the sub & enjoy a more clinical sound...and when your Dad listens you can add the sub to the mix and he'll be happy.
[/quote]

This is a great approach and one I've been doing for some time. The sub is great for some music but if you fancy speed and resolution then turn it off. My sub only cost £350 and isn't really fast or defined enough to satisfy my stereo needs. I've just bought some Spendor SA1s which have truly amazing midrange and speed. Next I'm going to upgrade my sub to something decent that's faster and tighter.

The sub approach allows you to tune the bass to the room and get it right. Be wary that cheap subs (probably less than £600) will just add boom rather than really nice, detailed bass. Apparently the REL R series is very good and where it starts for music. Personally I think it allows you to create a sound system that exceeds floorstanders in quality. As I've heard it said before, let the mid/HF people do their bit and let the bass specialists do theirs. Your amp can work a smaller load and do a better job whilst the class D lump in the corner can worry about moving air. It is vital though that you can set it up well else you'll end up with a detached/boomy/slow sound that will just get under your skin.

Finally, when you stick on a DVD you can turn up the sub! Brilliant! Total flexibility.
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="drummerman"]
Hughes123, why dont you choose something in between? Consider a proper stand mount with a reasonable sized bass unit of good quality as an alternative.

I can tell you that your FMJ makes nice music with Dynaudio's 52. I have heard that combination many times and know that a few customers have changed their mind with regards to speakers once they demoed the two. They have an open, clear and engaging sound with proper tuneful, unforced bass that only a reasonable sized speaker/bass unit can produce. 'Super miniatures' have their limitations. There is only so much you can get from a tiny enclosure with a beer mat sized driver.

I'd be amazed if you still hanker after a sub with the 52's
[/quote]

The thing about any pair of speakers is that their placement and room is king. I've heard (allegedly) decent sized standmounters produce nothing in the bass department thanks to the room. I've heard floorstanders lose all of their bass to a room too (Rega R5s - quite a surprise to my mate when he tried them in my concrete/wood laminate floor lounge). I've also heard a supermini just lose it completely with overpowering bass due to placement. The trick is to buy the right speaker for the placement. That was a key factor when I chose the sealed-unit Spendor SA1s. At least with a sub you can place it in a less restrictive room position if necessary and can set it up for the room size. When you move them to another room, change the configurations! It's much better than plugging ports, etc.
 
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Anonymous

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I know I should, but I want something with a bit of a more natural sound...something that can really faithfully reproduce. I looked at some of the remakes of the LS3/5a, but they only have a max SPL of 100db...not really a viable option when my dad selects -15db on my amp!

Perhaps I could go a bit more mid-way with something like the ProAc Studio 110 and the get an REL sub to add to the bass (and then as previously stated, just turn it down alot when I use it).
 

drummerman

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[quote user="igglebert"] The thing about any pair of speakers is that their placement and room is king[/quote]

quite right of course. Thats why I always say dem at home. On this occasion I forgot but then I would'nt underestimate young Hughes123 and assume he will do that anyway.
 

JoelSim

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[quote user="Hughes123"]I know I should, but I want something with a bit of a more natural sound...something that can really faithfully reproduce. I looked at some of the remakes of the LS3/5a, but they only have a max SPL of 100db...not really a viable option when my dad selects -15db on my amp!

Perhaps I could go a bit more mid-way with something like the ProAc Studio 110 and the get an REL sub to add to the bass (and then as previously stated, just turn it down alot when I use it).[/quote]

Or even sell your dad on eBay and get a new one. Will save you money and ensure that you don't keep having to change the bass settings
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="drummerman"]
[quote user="igglebert"] The thing about any pair of speakers is that their placement and room is king[/quote]

quite right of course. Thats why I always say dem at home. On this occasion I forgot but then I would'nt underestimate young Hughes123 and assume he will do that anyway.
[/quote]

Yep. Just, do all hi-fi dealers ask for 100% value of item deposit? Quite a pain if you want to test 2 sets of speakers and considering I always pay in cash. : (
 
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Anonymous

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[quote user="JoelSim"][quote user="Hughes123"]I know I should, but I want something with a bit of a more natural sound...something that can really faithfully reproduce. I looked at some of the remakes of the LS3/5a, but they only have a max SPL of 100db...not really a viable option when my dad selects -15db on my amp!

Perhaps I could go a bit more mid-way with something like the ProAc Studio 110 and the get an REL sub to add to the bass (and then as previously stated, just turn it down alot when I use it).[/quote]

Or even sell your dad on eBay and get a new one. Will save you money and ensure that you don't keep having to change the bass settings[/quote]

I'll put the reserve at £0.01...aaawwww I love him really! : )
 
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Anonymous

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Does anybody know of a modern-day alternative to the old 70s Yamaha NS-1000M or the old 70s KEF and JBL speakers?
 

hifikrazy

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[quote user="Thaiman"]
[quote user="Mr_Poletski"]The generally accepted 'frequency response' of the human ear is 20hz to 20Khz [/quote]

emotion-8.gif


I have been talking to a few speakers's engineers in the past and they all think otherwise....may be I am wrong.

[/quote]

I can definitely hear (not in inverted commas) the difference in bass between a B&W 685 (49Hz) and a B&W 800D (32Hz).

If humans cannot hear below 50Hz, there would be no reason for speaker manufacturers to build floorstanders given the many physical issues that have to be overcome with the larger cabinet, as most bookshelf speakers (other than the smaller ones) can go down to 50Hz. Perhaps the difference I'm hearing is bass weight rather than bass depth?
 
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Anonymous

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I'm not sure about the depth versus what you can hear, but the important bit is the decibel level that the speaker can produce at a given low frequency. I've heard speakers rated to 75Hz sound deeper than a pair rated to 38Hz. There really is no substitute for hearing some kit to decide really.
 

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