Without wishing to open Pandora's box, a can of worms, or , could someone help with the following? I understand that the electrical current between my amp and speakers is AC (alternating current) and is therefore non-directional, i.e. over a period of time, current flows equally from the -ve binding post to the +ve one and back again. It's not a direct current (DC). My speaker cable has direction markings on it. Presumably this means the current flows easier in one direction than the other (when measured over long lengths, not 2 or 3 metres as I'm using in my home, but I digress). If this is the case, is the cable intended for DC applications and it won't matter which way I connect it? Logically, it shouldn't right? If you've read this question carefully, then you'll know I'm not questioning the cable's directional qualities. I'm prepared to accept a conductor (the cable) will allow electrons to pass one way easier than another... this is a measure of inductance. My point is, if the amp is outputting an alternating current, then it simply doesn't matter as the current has to flow in both directions. The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying a new speaker cable and it's brilliant, but I'm not experiencing as much bass as before. I'm going to try switching it around but that got me thinking, and well, here we are. Perhaps I need to let it burn in... ;-)
Speaker Cable Direction
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Cheers for the reply, idc. Not sure why the formatting of my original post was stripped out - makes it look a headache to read through now.
Why is there directional markings at all on speaker cable if they handle alternating current?
For a second, let's say there is an audible difference. If I connect the cable so that the arrows are pointing from the amp to the speaker, then simply by turning the cable over, I'm effectively reversing the direction!
Look, like this:
(amp) +ve <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< -ve (speaker)
(amp) -ve >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +ve (speaker)
Turned over looks like:
(amp) -ve >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +ve (speaker)
(amp) +ve <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< -ve (speaker)
So, even if the speaker cable was directional and you have it pointing from the amp to the speaker, then you also need to choose the +ve or -ve binding post also. I'll let my ears decide, but I can't make head or tail of why the markings are there in the first place (in the context of DC applications, yes, but not AC).
Why is there directional markings at all on speaker cable if they handle alternating current?
For a second, let's say there is an audible difference. If I connect the cable so that the arrows are pointing from the amp to the speaker, then simply by turning the cable over, I'm effectively reversing the direction!
Look, like this:
(amp) +ve <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< -ve (speaker)
(amp) -ve >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +ve (speaker)
Turned over looks like:
(amp) -ve >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +ve (speaker)
(amp) +ve <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< -ve (speaker)
So, even if the speaker cable was directional and you have it pointing from the amp to the speaker, then you also need to choose the +ve or -ve binding post also. I'll let my ears decide, but I can't make head or tail of why the markings are there in the first place (in the context of DC applications, yes, but not AC).
I have no idea if i'm just talking a load of nonsense or not but could it possibly be to limit the amount of DC going to your speakers when your amp is being overstressed??? As I understand it when your amp is clipping it sends DC to your speakers damaging your drivers. No idea if what I have just said is valid or a load of tosh!!!
And so, just as reliably as all the Friday posts from the retailers designed to boost visibility in case you're in a Saturday buying mood, here comes the weekend cable thread...
idc
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mlilliman said:
A Belden engineer at a presentation to the Audio Engineering Society stated that they were happy to mark a direction on a cable if the compnay they were making the cable for asked them to do so. (Belden make cables for other cable 'makers', who often just out the parts together).
Someone, somewhere decided they could hear a difference, so they and others have decided, with no evidence regarding actual audibility to say it is the case.
mlilliman said:
Just plug it in. If you don't like it, turn it round. If you still don't like it, bin it and get another cable. If you're losing bass, move the speakers nearer to a wall. It's almost as simple as that.
Come on Andrew, you can do better than that... I know you must have an opinion on this ;-)
I've scoured most forums in the past week for an answer, but no-one asks which binding post the directional cable should be connected to! I know this is an attribute of DC current, but if electrons flow from -ve to +ve then turning the cable over is the same as pointing the arrows in the reverse direction, i.e. from speaker towards the amp thus defeating the original intention
I've scoured most forums in the past week for an answer, but no-one asks which binding post the directional cable should be connected to! I know this is an attribute of DC current, but if electrons flow from -ve to +ve then turning the cable over is the same as pointing the arrows in the reverse direction, i.e. from speaker towards the amp thus defeating the original intention
james_LR90 said:
No, it can't be done. A stressed amp is a stressed amp and can pop yer speakers. Solution: buy a bigger amp and don't turn it up as much or listen at lower levels with what you've got. Amplifiers working within their limits don't send DC down the speaker cables.
mlilliman said:
No real opinion whatsoever, but if the manufacturer suggests the arrows on the cable should point from amp to speakers, and those arrows haven't cost me any extra money, where's the harm in following the directions?
I admit I haven't done any extensive experiments with cables marked with directional indicators used the 'wrong' way – life's really too short.
Oh dear, I sense this thread is going the way of so many others.
I (obviously) will try each way and settle on the configuration which sounds the best. What I'm trying to ascertain is, is the indicated direction true for both wires in the cable? If not, shouldn't we be asking which is the recommended binding post to connect each wire to?
If audiophile community concensus is "try it and see which sounds the best", then why on earth put the arrows on in the first place. This shouldn't be as petty and ridiculous as the subject has become.
I (obviously) will try each way and settle on the configuration which sounds the best. What I'm trying to ascertain is, is the indicated direction true for both wires in the cable? If not, shouldn't we be asking which is the recommended binding post to connect each wire to?
If audiophile community concensus is "try it and see which sounds the best", then why on earth put the arrows on in the first place. This shouldn't be as petty and ridiculous as the subject has become.
mlilliman said:
I'm not entirely sure I understand the question. Surely most speaker cables comprise a pair of conductors joined or bundled together in some manner, one for the positive connection and one for the negative? Red to red, black to black, and all that. The arrow marking (or other indication where made, such as the suggestion from some brands that the labelling on the cable should 'read' from the amp to the speaker) show which way the manufacturer suggests the cable should be arranged.
Whether you choose to follow that suggestion (where made) or not, is really up to you.
No worries Andrew, i'm evidently finding this tricky to explain in words without being able to sketch it out!
Right. A speaker cable for a single channel has 2 wires; one to carry the signal to the speaker, and one to carry it back again to the amp. With alternating current, both wires take turns to carry the "to" and "from" signal. Typically, one of the wires is marked as directional. Does this marking relate to both wires? If it does relate to both, then why as each wire has to handle the signal in <i>both</i> directions - you might as well point the arrows the other way.
Logic would suggest the arrows relate to the preferred direction of one of the wires, with the non-labelled wire pointing the other way? If so, from which binding post (+ve or -ve) does most of the AC current flow <i>from</i> in order to connect it correctly?
I agree it's hugely irrelevant in the great scheme of things, but am I the only one seeing the anomaly here?
Right. A speaker cable for a single channel has 2 wires; one to carry the signal to the speaker, and one to carry it back again to the amp. With alternating current, both wires take turns to carry the "to" and "from" signal. Typically, one of the wires is marked as directional. Does this marking relate to both wires? If it does relate to both, then why as each wire has to handle the signal in <i>both</i> directions - you might as well point the arrows the other way.
Logic would suggest the arrows relate to the preferred direction of one of the wires, with the non-labelled wire pointing the other way? If so, from which binding post (+ve or -ve) does most of the AC current flow <i>from</i> in order to connect it correctly?
I agree it's hugely irrelevant in the great scheme of things, but am I the only one seeing the anomaly here?
idc
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The audiophile view is that the directionality is the direction the sound goes in, so the arrows point from the amp to the speaker. That you have realised in fact this is nonsense is not new. That some say they hear a difference is down to them and their view of cable mythology and is inherant in them, not the cable.
I think the point that miliman was trying to make, was whether the arrows on the wire should point towards the red terminal on the speaker, or the blackidc said:
Because usually only one of the threads carries information towards the speaker, the other one returns "waste" energy, right? Like artery vs vein. And whether that makes any difference since there is no there and back again in AC current scenarios. And whether the arrows should point in the direction of the energy (+ to -) or in the direction of the electron flow (- to +).
Oh, I could really have a field day with this...
mlilliman said:
But you are, and you have!
Just experiment, as Andrew mentioned life is to short, don't question unless you want the the thread to explode, which clearly you don't from your opening statement.
Excitable Boy
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This type of response really gets my goat! I'm sure it's not the intention but it comes over as really patronising, like "I don't concern myself with such trivial matters and I should point out to you that it's really not worth you worrying about either.". Well, I can put your and Andrew's mind(s?) at rest that other than post the question on the forum, it didn't pre-occupy my thoughts at all until this evening lol. Surely more learned Hi-Fi enthusiasts concern themselves with far more extraneous aspects of their system?
Still, I'm now watching / listening back to MTV's Radiohead - Live from the Basement recording, and thoroughly enjoying my hi-fi. The programme appears to be a Dolby Digital stereo recording of their "In Rainbows" album, and sounds quite superb via an Audiolab 8000AP, Densen B110, and AE Radiance 2 speakers. The speaker cable is showing signs of settling down, and while lighter in the bass department than I'm accustomed to, the sweeter treble and holographic soundstage are definite plusses. What a band Radiohead are btw, absolute geniuses. I find their music like an Indian head massage but just for my ears
Oh, thank you IDC for your contributions. I think I've reached the same cynical conclusion unfortunately, which is a shame as I had hoped this direction marking anomaly would've been discussed in a light hearted manner and perhaps another conclusion reached. I have been unable to hear any difference to the sound when reversing the direction of the speaker cable (as the logic implied) and for the record, I am someone who acknowledges the variations in presentation interconnects and speaker cables render.
Still, I'm now watching / listening back to MTV's Radiohead - Live from the Basement recording, and thoroughly enjoying my hi-fi. The programme appears to be a Dolby Digital stereo recording of their "In Rainbows" album, and sounds quite superb via an Audiolab 8000AP, Densen B110, and AE Radiance 2 speakers. The speaker cable is showing signs of settling down, and while lighter in the bass department than I'm accustomed to, the sweeter treble and holographic soundstage are definite plusses. What a band Radiohead are btw, absolute geniuses. I find their music like an Indian head massage but just for my ears
Oh, thank you IDC for your contributions. I think I've reached the same cynical conclusion unfortunately, which is a shame as I had hoped this direction marking anomaly would've been discussed in a light hearted manner and perhaps another conclusion reached. I have been unable to hear any difference to the sound when reversing the direction of the speaker cable (as the logic implied) and for the record, I am someone who acknowledges the variations in presentation interconnects and speaker cables render.
Well the lesson is don't buy cables with "arrows" on them telling you which way to "point", or one's which tell you which way to "point" the writing on the sheath.
Well mlilliman, I remember reading a book from audioquest a long time ago and I remember a passage saying that they print arrows on there cables the way the copper was spun, as they found the sound quality to be better in that direction.
mlilliman said:
Not my intention whatsoever. But you did badger me into giving an answer, into which it seems you are now reading your own interpretation.
mlilliman said:
It's not an anomaly, as I explained above. The manufacturer suggests you orient the cable one way, and whether or not you choose to follow that serving suggestion is up to you.
Fact - certain digital coaxial phono leads were 'measured' for jitter and give different levels of jitter depending on which way around it was. These cables were well used
This measurement proves that there are at least measureable differences in leads
As for speaker cables, id have to say that AC is AC. Still, there may be exceptions to the rule
In theory, id say 'pushing' is better to 'pulling' where speaker domes are concerned
This measurement proves that there are at least measureable differences in leads
As for speaker cables, id have to say that AC is AC. Still, there may be exceptions to the rule
In theory, id say 'pushing' is better to 'pulling' where speaker domes are concerned
Well now, I have a degree in electronic engineering albeit 20 years ago and I can't work out whether this is all bollox or not by looking at the theory. We are dealing with AC and therefore it should not make any difference as to the direction of the cable. However it also occurs to me that, although the current is alternating, there is certainly a transfer of energy in one direction and therefore may be its not as simply as just saying its AC...not everything is symmetrical given the flow of energy.
If the cable were acting as a diode, you would expect the same results irrespective of cable direction. But if you think of the impedence of the cable as a combination of resistance, capacitance and inductance and draw a simple diagram using one of each, then the capacitor that spans the two conductors must be either in front of or behind the inductor which is in series with one of the inductors. This model is not symmetrical which implies direction does matter.
Townshend impendence matched cables have a circuitry box at each end, therefore I assume the impedence of the cable when viewed at each end is different and these cables are not symmetrical, so will be directional. But these are more than pieces of wire, in fact a passive circuit. Which makes me wonder whether all cables are in fact passive impedence based circuits and not simple resistors.
Just my 2p worth, would be interested in others views of these theories!
If the cable were acting as a diode, you would expect the same results irrespective of cable direction. But if you think of the impedence of the cable as a combination of resistance, capacitance and inductance and draw a simple diagram using one of each, then the capacitor that spans the two conductors must be either in front of or behind the inductor which is in series with one of the inductors. This model is not symmetrical which implies direction does matter.
Townshend impendence matched cables have a circuitry box at each end, therefore I assume the impedence of the cable when viewed at each end is different and these cables are not symmetrical, so will be directional. But these are more than pieces of wire, in fact a passive circuit. Which makes me wonder whether all cables are in fact passive impedence based circuits and not simple resistors.
Just my 2p worth, would be interested in others views of these theories!
Dr Lodge - you seem to be quoting Mr Townshend quite a bit. Have you dealt with his company before or something?
I've met Mr Townshend as I travelled to his shack of a workshop in order to get my Isolda cables terminated properly (as I ordered them, not as delivered!). Its simply what I have...no other relation or affiliation.
Personally I would find it difficult to believe that cables are directional unless I understand a scientific argument for it. I can appreciate the Isolda cables are directional since they have circuits at each end, but as for "normal" wires...not yet convinced.
Personally I would find it difficult to believe that cables are directional unless I understand a scientific argument for it. I can appreciate the Isolda cables are directional since they have circuits at each end, but as for "normal" wires...not yet convinced.
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