Sorry for the noob question... but why do I need a DAC?

[admin_exported]

Hi folks - I've already searched the forums and found a few threads entitled "Do I need a DAC?"... but they don't really tell me what I need to know.Until now I do all my listening on my PC. I use EAC to rip all my CDs to FLAC and use Foobar to play those via WASAPI > Asus Xonar DS sound card with the LM4562NA Op Amp upgrade > BeyerDynamic headphones.

Hi folks - I've already searched the forums and found a few threads entitled "Do I need a DAC?"... but they don't really tell me what I need to know.

At the minute I do all my listening on my PC, but would like to get out of the office a bit more. I use EAC to rip my CDs to FLAC and then Foobar to play those via WASAPI > Asus Xonar DS sound card with the LM4562NA Op Amp upgrade > BeyerDynamic headphones.

I'd like to build a decent Hi-fi in the living room, but I rarely play a CD from start to finish, preferring to create playlists in Foobar, so I'd like to continue this approach through an amp and speakers... hence my question - where does the DAC come in?

Why can't I simply connect a PC (or laptop) containing Foobar and all my FLAC files to an amp directly? What is the benefit of a DAC?

I'm competent working with PCs and Macs (do it for a living) but Hi-fi seems a bit of a dark art.

I'd really appreciate a layman's explaination of the importance of a DAC, or a redirect to some relevant information on "Hi-fi for idiots."

Thanks for your time.

Col

 

[The_Lhc]

If you don't have an external DAC the PC (or more to the point the sound card) will be doing the digital to analogue conversion. *Generally* an external DAC will do a better job of that, unless you have a really good sound card and even then a PC is a pretty noisy place to be, electrically, so you may get a benefit from simply taking the DAC off-board of the PC.

Also most DACs have more than one input so you can add additional digital sources to them later if you so require.

 

[nads]

if you are happy with the sound you get from the new set up then you dont need a DAC. but if you want to try and get a better sound your may like to try an external DAC rather than the internal one you are using now.

 

[Anonymous]

LHC has already answered your question, but just to take a step back: you're already using a DAC. It is short for Digital-to-Analog Convertor, and you need it because the music files on your PC are digital and your amplifier expects an analog signal.

What you really want to know (presumably) is why you should use a different DAC than the one already in your PC. The answer to that question depends on your existing equipment. The Xonar is quite good (comparable to the CA DacMagic in my limited experience), so you could change it if the rest of your audio chain is of higher quality or if you don't like the sonic signature of the Xonar.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys - I think I've got it now.

Essentially what you're saying is that while I *could* connect the Xonar directly to an amp using an analogue out on the sound card, it would mean having the 'unsightly' PC sitting beside the system along with the associated noise as LHC has pointed out, and if I were to use a dedicated laptop as a music library I'm bound by a mediocre sound card compared to a dedicated DAC.

Am I making sense?

Cheers

Col

 

[nads]

the noise mentioned is more to do with the internal noise of a laptop or PC efecting the internal dac if you are using it.

 

[Anonymous]

the noise mentioned is more to do with the internal noise of a laptop or PC efecting the internal dac if you are using it.

Gotcha - thanks Nads.

 

[AnotherJoe]

An external dac only gives an improvement if your pc has only analog stereo or multi outs. Even then top-end sound cards are often the match of standalone DACs.

If ur PC has a digital out or an hdmi/dvi for sound then there is no need whatsoever for a DAC (assuming u have a decent hifi/av reciever).

Bear in mind a typical DAC chip such as the Wolfson 8741DAC in the Arcam Rdac only costs about £3 to manufacturers.

 

[The_Lhc]

If ur PC has a digital out or an hdmi/dvi for sound then there is no need whatsoever for a DAC (assuming u have a decent hifi/av reciever).

AV receivers yes, but most stereo amps still don't have integrated DACs (although it's becoming more common) and of those that do I'm not aware of any that accept HDMI (DVI doesn't carry audio btw).

 

[AnotherJoe]

If ur PC has a digital out or an hdmi/dvi for sound then there is no need whatsoever for a DAC (assuming u have a decent hifi/av reciever).

AV receivers yes, but most stereo amps still don't have integrated DACs (although it's becoming more common) and of those that do I'm not aware of any that accept HDMI (DVI doesn't carry audio btw).

Modern AMD graphics chipsets can output HD sound through the DVI out. They come with DVI/HDMI adapter which you plug into the DVI out on the graphics card and plug the HDMI cable into this.

 

[nads]

If ur PC has a digital out or an hdmi/dvi for sound then there is no need whatsoever for a DAC (assuming u have a decent hifi/av reciever).

AV receivers yes, but most stereo amps still don't have integrated DACs (although it's becoming more common) and of those that do I'm not aware of any that accept HDMI (DVI doesn't carry audio btw).

Modern AMD graphics chipsets can output HD sound through the DVI out. They come with DVI/HDMI adapter which you plug into the DVI out on the graphics card and plug the HDMI cable into this.

that is a new one to me. Got a link?

 

[The_Lhc]

If ur PC has a digital out or an hdmi/dvi for sound then there is no need whatsoever for a DAC (assuming u have a decent hifi/av reciever).

AV receivers yes, but most stereo amps still don't have integrated DACs (although it's becoming more common) and of those that do I'm not aware of any that accept HDMI (DVI doesn't carry audio btw).

Modern AMD graphics chipsets can output HD sound through the DVI out. They come with DVI/HDMI adapter which you plug into the DVI out on the graphics card and plug the HDMI cable into this.

that is a new one to me. Got a link?

And me, be surprised if that's part of the DVI standard, either way, the comment about integrated stereo amps and hdmi/dvi inputs still stands.

 

[bigblue235]

AnotherJoe is correct, there's a few graphics cards which output audio over DVI. I think some come with a specific DVI-HDMI adapter which has extra wiring for audio.

It's been a feature of certain cards for 2 or 3 years now.

 

[nads]

AnotherJoe is correct, there's a few graphics cards which output audio over DVI. I think some come with a specific DVI-HDMI adapter which has extra wiring for audio.

It's been a feature of certain cards for 2 or 3 years now.

Right then nothing to do with the DVI out just a special DVI to HDMI adaptor that takes the audio from the sound card and feeds it into the HDMI end of the adaptor?

Still as mentioned no good for any HiFi amp. As is any digital out ( Ok there are a few amp with a built in DAC and some active speakers that can take an optical or coax imput).

 

[bigblue235]

I don't know the techie details of it, I was just confirming that there is such a thing as 'Audio over DVI' Seems like a standard DVI socket, but once the adapter is connected you just plug an HDMI cable in. If you're asking if it connects to both the audio output and the DVI output, then no, it doesn't, just the DVI. I don't really get the point of it, although I guess it's to save having DVI and HDMI connections on the card.

 

[Anonymous]

As has been outlined, it's not about whether you need a DAC, it's about where - and with what - you turn bits into volts; data into music. An external DAC contains many of the same chipsets as a soundcard with analog outputs: in fact, they're very similar.

However, little of the 'sound' of the DAC/card derives from the D/A chip itself. It's all about the implementation . . .

Let's following some binary into the DAC . . . before it arrives at the 'CPU' of the D-A stage (a chip like the ESS Sabre, or Wolfson/Burr Brown/whatever), the gappy string of noughts and ones has to be clocked: regulated so that each bit is spiked onto the teeth of a cog, at perfectly regular intervals. This is surprisingly hard to do perfectly: all the components instrumental in doing this are hugely susceptible to their electro-magnetic environment.

The D-A hardware - and particularly the alogrithms used to reconstruct a voltage signal (meat) from those bits of 'mince' - is influential on the sound, but even more so is the analog output stage of the DAC - effectively a preamp driving the wire.

Every one of these components (analog and digital) is exquisitely sensitive to power fluctuations and rail noise. You can load a card with as many exotic components as you like, but if you use a badly-designed power supply, it will not sound good. Jamming a DAC into a slot in the motherboard is a surefire way to spoil its performance.

With an external converter, at least you can control, shield and power those sensitive components in a way that gives you some chance of high performance. Which isn't to say that some soundcards sound OK, but there are many advantages of getting audio out of the computer via USB or Firewire and doing the digital-to-analog conversion off-board.

 

[Manicmunky]

Hi All,

What about my kinda setup? (another noobhead)

current setup:

STB/PS3/Mac + Laptop >hdmi to LED TV> audio out via 3.5mm to RCA> T-Amp (SA-50) > 12AWG Copper out to Speakers

Do i need a DAC then?
Reason being, my laptop seems to be the weakest link.
Compared to iPod when docked, the sound difference is obvious.
iPod being louder and punchier on the bass.

Would it be better for me to get an AV receiver (thinking of Yamaha RX-V471) or a DAC.
and which DAC is better? SPDIF or USB output?

Help & God Bless!!

 

[The_Lhc]

So, all of your audio is going through the TV BEFORE it goes to the amp? That's your weakest link...

 

[AnotherJoe]

Hi All,

What about my kinda setup? (another noobhead)

current setup:

STB/PS3/Mac + Laptop >hdmi to LED TV> audio out via 3.5mm to RCA> T-Amp (SA-50) > 12AWG Copper out to Speakers

Do i need a DAC then?
Reason being, my laptop seems to be the weakest link.
Compared to iPod when docked, the sound difference is obvious.
iPod being louder and punchier on the bass.

Would it be better for me to get an AV receiver (thinking of Yamaha RX-V471) or a DAC.
and which DAC is better? SPDIF or USB output?

Help & God Bless!!

If your case I would suggest an av receiver and speakers to give you an all-round system. Having the tv sending the sound out via lineout is not doing you any favours.

Being able to enjoy games/movies in 5.1 sound is rather pleasant

 

[Manicmunky]

Hey LHC yes.. all HDMIs are connected to my TV HDMI inputs.

i pretty much suspected thats the weakest link going through the 3.5mm jack.

but frankly it really sounded better than my laptop soundcard tho. my MBP is fine.

any other suggestion for my setup?

 

[Manicmunky]

[/quote]

If your case I would suggest an av receiver and speakers to give you an all-round system. Having the tv sending the sound out via lineout is not doing you any favours.

Being able to enjoy games/movies in 5.1 sound is rather pleasant

[/quote]

Yeah that is my goal actually to have a nice decent punchy 5.1 system for the peripherals connected.
Receiver will definitely come in May! RX-V471 - any violent objections?
Would an optical out help with the sound while leaving the HDMI as it is?
I was thinking of a DAC to add. Is that even possible for my setup?

 

[SteveR750]

An external dac only gives an improvement if your pc has only analog stereo or multi outs. Even then top-end sound cards are often the match of standalone DACs.

If ur PC has a digital out or an hdmi/dvi for sound then there is no need whatsoever for a DAC (assuming u have a decent hifi/av reciever).

Bear in mind a typical DAC chip such as the Wolfson 8741DAC in the Arcam Rdac only costs about £3 to manufacturers.

Same reasons for any level of hi gear, it's all about the application and installation. R&D is not cheap, especially when spread over a low number of units.

 

[Overdose]

Yeah that is my goal actually to have a nice decent punchy 5.1 system for the peripherals connected.
Receiver will definitely come in May! RX-V471 - any violent objections?
Would an optical out help with the sound while leaving the HDMI as it is?
I was thinking of a DAC to add. Is that even possible for my setup?

The DAC in the receiver will be more than adequate.

 

[The_Lhc]

Yeah that is my goal actually to have a nice decent punchy 5.1 system for the peripherals connected.

Receiver will definitely come in May! RX-V471 - any violent objections?
Would an optical out help with the sound while leaving the HDMI as it is?

No, no, no, all the HDMIs go into the receiver, then one HDMI goes from the receiver's output into the TV. Otherwise you're bypassing all the processing in the receiver and just taking whatever format the TV is able to put out (which won't be much), in which case there's no point having the receiver.

 

[Manicmunky]

Yeah that is my goal actually to have a nice decent punchy 5.1 system for the peripherals connected.

Receiver will definitely come in May! RX-V471 - any violent objections?
Would an optical out help with the sound while leaving the HDMI as it is?

No, no, no, all the HDMIs go into the receiver, then one HDMI goes from the receiver's output into the TV. Otherwise you're bypassing all the processing in the receiver and just taking whatever format the TV is able to put out (which won't be much), in which case there's no point having the receiver.

Sorry LHC..what i meant for the optical out is for my current setup.. Was thinking if i can use that to enhance it. Hehe

Was referring to that if i add a DAC.

Guess i have no other better options but a receiver then..hehe

RX-V471 is the way to go then....