Sonos Zp90 VS Mac Mini VS Apple tv 160gb , Gloves off, Round 1

[admin_exported]

As the title above, which would give the best sound through digital Optical out to my Rega Dac.

I know the pros and cons of each systems apart from the Sound quality when sending to a dac.

Any experiences would be a great help.

Thanks

Tim

 

[The_Lhc]

Theoretically there shouldn't be any difference when using an external DAC.

If the ZP90 is set to fixed volume it will send the bitstream unmolested to the DAC (I'm almost afraid to use the phrase "bit-perfect" now!), which is a good start, I can't comment on either of the other two.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that,

Anyone have any experience with mac mini , apple tv 160gb, ?

 

[Anonymous]

Sonos Zp90 VS Mac Mini VS Apple tv 160gb , Gloves off, Round 1
As the title above, which would give the best sound through digital Optical out to my Rega Dac.

I know the pros and cons of each systems apart from the Sound quality when sending to a dac.

I have just borrowed a Apple TV 160gb filled it with cd rips in apple lossless, and it sounds great, much smoother than my cd player, it has lost its harsh edge that it had before ( using the cd player). But is the Sonos any better or the mac mini, ( both of which appeal more as i can multi room with them.

Any experiences would be a great help.

Thanks

Tim

 

[The_Lhc]

Err, what was wrong with the answers last time you asked this question?

 

[Andrew Everard]

Threads merged.

 

[Anonymous]

As you said "I can't comment on either of the other two"

So i though may be someone else could,

Also no one seems to look in this section of the web site, as the same messages are on the front page that were there a week ago. So i though i would drop it in the Hifi Section as this gets a lot more traffic.

Thanks anyway,

I guess i will figure it out myself.

 

[The_Lhc]

tim20:
As you said "I can't comment on either of the other two"

So i though may be someone else could,

Also no one seems to look in this section of the web site, as the same messages are on the front page that were there a week ago. So i though i would drop it in the Hifi Section as this gets a lot more traffic.

Thanks anyway,

I guess i will figure it out myself.

Must admit I'm a little surprised that no-one else replied, I can only assume they're all in silent agreement with my theory that there won't be any significant differences when used with an external DAC (it's the DAC that contributes the most towards the sound quality).

The "hi-fi" enthusiasts probably won't have much more experience of any of the products in question (a lot of feelings that they don't constitute "hi-fi" still). Personally I never look in the individual sub-forums, I just use the active topics button to see what's being updated.

 

[Andrew Everard]

tim20:No one seems to look in this section of the web site, as the same
messages are on the front page that were there a week ago. So i though
i would drop it in the Hifi Section as this gets a lot more traffic.

Thread moved to Hi-Fi section, just in case...

 

[manicm]

the_lhc:tim20:

As you said "I can't comment on either of the other two"

So i though may be someone else could,

Also no one seems to look in this section of the web site, as the same messages are on the front page that were there a week ago. So i though i would drop it in the Hifi Section as this gets a lot more traffic.

Thanks anyway,

I guess i will figure it out myself.

Must admit I'm a little surprised that no-one else replied, I can only assume they're all in silent agreement with my theory that there won't be any significant differences when used with an external DAC (it's the DAC that contributes the most towards the sound quality). The "hi-fi" enthusiasts probably won't have much more experience of any of the products in question (a lot of feelings that they don't constitute "hi-fi" still). Personally I never look in the individual sub-forums, I just use the active topics button to see what's being updated.

It's probably because many of us don't have the varying equipment to tell or test. A Linn Akurate DS and Klimax DS have the same Wolfson twin dacs.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, and move the thread back,

My main reason for asking is that when i change between sources through my rega dac their is quite large differences in quality using the same song/ disc.

For example i can flick between a Denon CD, Sony Bluray, windows 7 laptop and apple tv 160gb (on loan),

All using optical out except the laptop which is usb,

All sound very different, the laptop being the worst with a quite muddy sound, the surprise for me was the sony bluray which sounded amazing at the side of all my other sources, so much more detail, clarity and depth, but on extended listening the bass was over kill and lazy.

In the last few days i have borrowed a old Apple tv 160gb, and i have to say its the best of the bunch, it has nearly all the clarity of the sony bluray but with much more control at the bottom end and much better than any of the above for smoothness ie no harshness with high notes.

So to sum up im happy with the apple tv, but would like the option to multi room with either the sonos or the Macmini. if the sound is as good or better.

Also the ipad is a great interface for the apple tv/ mac mini.

Thanks

Tim

 

[manicm]

I was going to say t_lhc was right insofar as opposed to integrated components like a Linn DS, different sources going into the same external DAC should not yield wildly different results as unknowns are reduced - they're all using the same analogue output stage i.e. out the DAC.

But as your results find, tim20, my original thoughts were that the DAC is only one part in the chain.

 

[The_Lhc]

tim20:All sound very different, the laptop being the worst with a quite muddy sound,

How much did you do to ensure the laptop wasn't mucking about with the output (ie changing the sample rate etc)?

EDIT: Ooh, hang on, are you saying you played a CD via the laptop's CD drive? That will sound rubbish, no question.

 

[manicm]

the_lhc:tim20:All sound very different, the laptop being the worst with a quite muddy sound, How much did you do to ensure the laptop wasn't mucking about with the output (ie changing the sample rate etc)? EDIT: Ooh, hang on, are you saying you played a CD via the laptop's CD drive? That will sound rubbish, no question.

On my laptop playing CDs straight absolutely does not sound worse than rips - it often sounds better.

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:tim20:All sound very different, the laptop being the worst with a quite muddy sound, How much did you do to ensure the laptop wasn't mucking about with the output (ie changing the sample rate etc)?EDIT: Ooh, hang on, are you saying you played a CD via the laptop's CD drive? That will sound rubbish, no question.

No it was itunes, using a lossless CD rip, i am using windows 7 so outputting the data bit perfect, also followed a few pointers on the net for setting up the preferences in quick time, to give the best output.

Sounded good, but just quite a way behind all the other sources.

Tim

 

[DavieCee]

There has been lots of anecdotal comments that iTunes does not sound as good on a PC as it does on a Mac.

The same may apply to Quicktime and would go some way to explaining the leap when using the ATV.

Just more food for thought...................

Edit:- It may be hard to get direct comparisons as most people will only use the one system.

 

[Dan Turner]

Tim - I can give you my perspective having tried, if not exactly the products that your considering, then some close enough variations for my experience to hopefully be relevant.

My amp has a built in DAC, so whilst that's not exactly what you're going for at least everything I tried was compared on a level playing field.

I used to connect my Macbook Pro to my amp via optical; I also had an airport express that was also connected via optical. I could never tell the difference between the two. Sometimes I would think that the Macbook connected directly sounded better, but then later I would listen to music streamed from the Macbook to the AE and it would sound just as good. If there was a difference then it was not significant.

I got fed up of wireless drop-outs (+ the fact that the AE digital out and my amp didn't get on very well) and having to plug my mac in directly to avoid them, which then meant I couldn't use it whilst listening to music... and I got a Sonos ZP90.

The Sonos sounds better that either the Mac plugged in directly or streamed to an AE. It's not massive, but it is appreciable. Also the Sonos interface is just perfection and it's such a breeze to set-up and pleasure to use and such a brilliant way into multi-room that for me it's just a no-brainer.

Theoretically all the above-mentioned devices output a bit-perfect SPDIF signal to the DAC, but getting the right bits in the right order isn't the whole story. Jitter (timing errors between bits) is somthing which affects all digital transports to a greater or lesser extent. Although generally the better the DAC the less susceptible it is to high levels of jitter from a transport (due to reclocking circuits etc) it seems that all respond to a better digital feed to some extent.

A lot of people who are serious about computer based music get a Mac Mini and add one of several commercially available USB or Firewire to SPDIF converters to provide a less jittery output (some of which also allow up to a 192khz output, whereas the Mac's built-in optical out is limited to 96khz).

The 'word on the forums' is that all of the above mentioned devices aren't great from a jitter perspective, but I'm not sure how us mortals are ever supposed to substantiate that. For me the Sonos sounds great connected up digitally to a decent DAC and the convenience seals the deal.

 

[Anonymous]

Dan Turner:
Tim - I can give you my perspective having tried, if not exactly the products that your considering, then some close enough variations for my experience to hopefully be relevant.

My amp has a built in DAC, so whilst that's not exactly what you're going for at least everything I tried was compared on a level playing field.

I used to connect my Macbook Pro to my amp via optical; I also had an airport express that was also connected via optical. I could never tell the difference between the two. Sometimes I would think that the Macbook connected directly sounded better, but then later I would listen to music streamed from the Macbook to the AE and it would sound just as good. If there was a difference then it was not significant.

I got fed up of wireless drop-outs (+ the fact that the AE digital out and my amp didn't get on very well) and having to plug my mac in directly to avoid them, which then meant I couldn't use it whilst listening to music... and I got a Sonos ZP90.

The Sonos sounds better that either the Mac plugged in directly or streamed to an AE. It's not massive, but it is appreciable. Also the Sonos interface is just perfection and it's such a breeze to set-up and pleasure to use and such a brilliant way into multi-room that for me it's just a no-brainer.

Theoretically all the above-mentioned devices output a bit-perfect SPDIF signal to the DAC, but getting the right bits in the right order isn't the whole story. Jitter (timing errors between bits) is somthing which affects all digital transports to a greater or lesser extent. Although generally the better the DAC the less susceptible it is to high levels of jitter from a transport (due to reclocking circuits etc) it seems that all respond to a better digital feed to some extent.

A lot of people who are serious about computer based music get a Mac Mini and add one of several commercially available USB or Firewire to SPDIF converters to provide a less jittery output (some of which also allow up to a 192khz output, whereas the Mac's built-in optical out is limited to 96khz).

The 'word on the forums' is that all of the above mentioned devices aren't great from a jitter perspective, but I'm not sure how us mortals are ever supposed to substantiate that. For me the Sonos sounds great connected up digitally to a decent DAC and the convenience seals the deal.

Thanks for the reply,

After reading that i think i need to try a sonos in my system, see what it can do. And as you have said the mac mini with the usb to spdif converter has good write ups, as well as using J River, although it sounds like a lot of messing around, and a large out lay compared to the Sonos and apple tv.

I guess i could get a home demo on a sonos.

Cheers

Tim

 

[The_Lhc]

Dan Turner:but getting the right bits in the right order isn't the whole story.

I've now got a vision of an AV amp in a tuxedo and an Airport Express wearing a big pair of glasses:

Amp: You're playing all the wrong bits!
AE: I'm playing all the RIGHT bits, just not necessarily in the right order!