Sonos - Arcam rDAC disappointment

eggontoast

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I have been using a Sonos ZP90 for a year or so to stream FLAC from a NAS for most of my listening. Anyway the other day I purchased an Arcam rDAC because.......it was cheap. Anyway I spent last night listening to music fed from both the ZP90's analogue outputs and the optically connected rDAC by flicking between two inputs on my amplifier during the same piece of music. I used a STAX setup, a pair of Denon AH-D5000's from a meier audio corda cantate headphone amplifier and a pair of Sennheiser HD-650's fed from a vintage SA-7800 amplifier.

I was expecting a night and day experience with a dramatic improvement in sound quality however in reality it wasn't as clear cut. Initially I thought I had made an error with my connections as I could hear no discernible difference between the two. After some extended listening and lots of different genres of music some small differences became apparent. The biggest improvement was in the bass department which was much more noticeable on the Denon cans. In bass heavy tracks the low end was 'fuller' sounding with more weight. Another area of improvement was during fast moving tracks when a lot was going on, there was more separation and the music held together better and didn't sound as jumbled if that makes sense. However these changes were ever so slight and I'm not sure if they would have been so apparent if I had listened to one track, changed the setup and listened again or if I could have passed am ABX test.

Either I have cloth ears, my expectations of a £300 DAC were to high or the Sonos's internal DAC is not as bad a people make out.
 

paradiziac

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Differences in DACs can be quite subtle.

Depending on ears and system, you read quite a few reports of DAC upgrades having made little/no difference.

It also depends how it's hooked up to the source--the rDac's optical in is known for not being as good as its USB implementation.
 

The_Lhc

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eggontoast said:
Either I have cloth ears, my expectations of a £300 DAC were to high or the Sonos's internal DAC is not as bad a people make out.

Must admit I'm starting to think the "night & day" difference I heard when I swapped my ZP90 to use a digital connection to my AV amp instead of analogue may have been more to do with the grotty free RCA cables I was using for the analogue connection.

I'm not going to bother shelling out for some decent cables to test the theory though!
 

eggontoast

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paradiziac said:
It also depends how it's hooked up to the source--the rDac's optical in is known for not being as good as its USB implementation.
What about the coax input any benefit in trying that, I didn't have a coax lead to try it with last night.
 

acalex

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eggontoast said:
paradiziac said:
It also depends how it's hooked up to the source--the rDac's optical in is known for not being as good as its USB implementation.
What about the coax input any benefit in trying that, I didn't have a coax lead to try it with last night.

It should be the same. The rDAC USB is by far the best input this device has...
 

bigblue235

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I've given up on DACs. My Apple TV connected to my amp via my TV sounds almost as good as my CD player. That small difference isn't worth £300 to me. I'd rather put that money towards upgrading my speakers.
 

paradiziac

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I don't know the rDac, but most DACs are slightly better over co-ax than optical. But the advantage of optical is to galvanically isolate the source powersupply from the dac. I've found that the two balance each other out in my system, and the best input depends on the respective quality of the cable.

bigblue235 said:
I've given up on DACs. My Apple TV connected to my amp via my TV sounds almost as good as my CD player. That small difference isn't worth £300 to me. I'd rather put that money towards upgrading my speakers.

Then, provided you have a good amp, your upgraded speakers will reveal the limitations of your source and you'll end up spending £500 or more on the DAC!
 

eggontoast

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So today I dug out a coax cable to try. I wasn't expecting it to make any difference TBH, I always thought there was some BS regarding the difference between digital inputs. However, I stand corrected. There is a definite difference between the two inputs, the optical is much more prominent in the mids and subsequently keeps the vocals more focused. Through the coax it just sounds like background music, and doesn't focus ones attention. For me and with the cans I am currently wearing the optical is the preferred choice. I will keep both inputs plugged in a see if the same is true when using other gear.
 

moon

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Who says the ZP90 has a bad DAC. The ZP90 is a very good thought out bit of kit with a well implemented DAC. It works very well and the analogue output is more than good enough.

I would sell the Arcam.
 

eggontoast

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moon said:
The ZP90 is a very good thought out bit of kit with a well implemented DAC.

I totally agree that it is a well thought out 'bit of kit' but that doesn't mean it cant be improved

moon said:
It works very well and the analogue output is more than good enough.

Good enough for what and compared to what, if you don't try other combination's then how do you know. Maybe you have already tried various DAC's with your ZP90 if so please do elaborate, I would be interested to hear your results.

moon said:
I would sell the Arcam.

Thank you for your opinion I probably will do......then try something else, an M-DAC maybe.
 
A

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Eggontoast,

I'm surprised with your question. Once you commented on a of thread concerning capacitor swapping that all kind of coupling capacitors sound the same, i.e., it doesn't mater whether they are cheap eletro type or high ESR MKPs, all sounds the same.

Now you are questioning if a coaxial cable can do the magic you are after?

So coupling capacitors are not an issue but digital cables are ... it's at least funny! :)
 

eggontoast

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Audio Maniac said:
Eggontoast,

I'm surprised with your question. Once you commented on a of thread concerning capacitor swapping that all kind of coupling capacitors sound the same, i.e., it doesn't mater whether they are cheap eletro type or high ESR MKPs, all sounds the same.

Now you are questioning if a coaxial cable can do the magic you are after?

So coupling capacitors are not an issue but digital cables are ... it's at least funny! :)
Batten down the hatches TROLL alert :wave: I suggest you read the thread again I make no reference to different coax cables making a difference
 

moon

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eggontoast said:
moon said:
The ZP90 is a very good thought out bit of kit with a well implemented DAC.

I totally agree that it is a well thought out 'bit of kit' but that doesn't mean it cant be improved

moon said:
It works very well and the analogue output is more than good enough.

Good enough for what and compared to what, if you don't try other combination's then how do you know. Maybe you have already tried various DAC's with your ZP90 if so please do elaborate, I would be interested to hear your results.

moon said:
I would sell the Arcam.

Thank you for your opinion I probably will do......then try something else, an M-DAC maybe.

Happy to elaborate, I tried the Zp90 with a Beresford Caiman, DAC Magic and into a top notch av receiver. Using both Coaxial and Optical inputs. Whilst there were some differences between all of them, they were infact very hard to hear. I certainly couldn't do it with a blindfold on. As you have discovered the slight changes in sound quality aren't always for the better. I guess it comes down to a personal view of what is considered an "improvement".

I don't want to be hung here, but I think a DAC regardless of cost is either well made or not. I prefer to make sure the rest of my system is spot on.
 

eggontoast

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moon said:
Happy to elaborate, I tried the Zp90 with a Beresford Caiman, DAC Magic and into a top notch av receiver. Using both Coaxial and Optical inputs. Whilst there were some differences between all of them, they were infact very hard to hear. I certainly couldn't do it with a blindfold on. As you have discovered the slight changes in sound quality aren't always for the better. I guess it comes down to a personal view of what is considered an "improvement".

I don't want to be hung here, but I think a DAC regardless of cost is either well made or not. I prefer to make sure the rest of my system is spot on.
Interesting, thanks for your input I think you maybe right.
 

moon

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just one further thing. do you only listen via headphones? if so, maybe a different style of cans could be fun. So if you fancy a change in sound you just swap when the mood takes you.It will have far more impact than a DAC.
 

eggontoast

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moon said:
just one further thing. do you only listen via headphones? if so, maybe a different style of cans could be fun. So if you fancy a change in sound you just swap when the mood takes you.It will have far more impact than a DAC.
Unfortunately current circumstances dictate headphones only. I have been buying and trying different cans for a while now and you are correct they do make a huge difference, headphone amplifiers not so much IMO. I got a little bored with buying cans so thought I'd try something different for a change.
 

moon

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eggontoast said:
moon said:
just one further thing. do you only listen via headphones? if so, maybe a different style of cans could be fun. So if you fancy a change in sound you just swap when the mood takes you.It will have far more impact than a DAC.
Unfortunately current circumstances dictate headphones only. I have been buying and trying different cans for a while now and you are correct they do make a huge difference, headphone amplifiers not so much IMO. I got a little bored with buying cans so thought I'd try something different for a change.

Cool,
 

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