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solid core

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andyjm

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Jul 20, 2012
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TrevC said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Anyone know where in the uk I can buy 18-16 gage solid cooper core speaker cable please I have looked around but can not find a uk site that sells it I do not want anything fancy just something that will do the job without costing a arm and a leg .
The main reason stranded cables are normally used is for ease of installation. There's no performance advantage to using solid core and it's a real pain in the bum to handle.
While I normally agree with TrevC, in this case he isn't 100% correct.

Skin effect is the tendency of electrons to flow closer to the surface of a conductor as the frequency of the signal increases. While not significant for home audio, the effect is real and even at audio frequencies a current gradient exists in the cable with more current flowing near the surface than at the cable core. Depending on cable construction, over a cable length, individual strands may spend some distance toward the cable core and some distance toward the cable edge. As a strand moves toward the centre of the cable, a portion of the current will jump to an adjacent strand to stay relatively closer to the cable surface. This 'strand jumping' can take place many times over a cable length depending on its construction. This jumping involves the electrons crossing copper / copper oxide / copper oxide / copper boundaries on the strand surfaces as they jump. Just the thought of this is enough to give the OFC single crystal brigade nightmares.

Solid cable does not have this problem, and arguably will provide a (probably inaudible) improved route for the signal. There are some manufacturers who have fancy basket weaves and plastic cable cores to keep the strands a constant distance from the cable centre to avoid this issue - just use solid cable....

Soild cable is tough to bend, but how often do you move your amp or speakers? It does have the advantage of staying put when you route it.

Finally, unless you don't like the look, there is no need to strip mains 'twin and earth' solid cable and twist the conductors. This provides no audible benefit. The inductive effect mentioned above is dependent on the conductors being run close together, not being twisted. There are a number of 'HiFi' speaker cables (Naim being one) that run conductors in parallel without a twist.

So for about 50p per metre, you can buy 2.5mmsq solid copper twin and earth cable, which I believe makes excellent speaker cable. Unlike most nonsense claims for cables, there is actually a solid (no pun intended) basis for solid cables have sonic (but probably inaudible) benefits over stranded.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
289
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10,970
andyjm said:
TrevC said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Anyone know where in the uk I can buy 18-16 gage solid cooper core speaker cable please I have looked around but can not find a uk site that sells it I do not want anything fancy just something that will do the job without costing a arm and a leg .
The main reason stranded cables are normally used is for ease of installation. There's no performance advantage to using solid core and it's a real pain in the bum to handle.
While I normally agree with TrevC, in this case he isn't 100% correct.

Skin effect is the tendency of electrons to flow closer to the surface of a conductor as the frequency of the signal increases. While not significant for home audio, the effect is real and even at audio frequencies a current gradient exists in the cable with more current flowing near the surface than at the cable core. Depending on cable construction, over a cable length, individual strands may spend some distance toward the cable core and some distance toward the cable edge. As a strand moves toward the centre of the cable, a portion of the current will jump to an adjacent strand to stay relatively closer to the cable surface. This 'strand jumping' can take place many times over a cable length depending on its construction. This jumping involves the electrons crossing copper / copper oxide / copper oxide / copper boundaries on the strand surfaces as they jump. Just the thought of this is enough to give the OFC single crystal brigade nightmares.

Solid cable does not have this problem, and arguably will provide a (probably inaudible) improved route for the signal. There are some manufacturers who have fancy basket weaves and plastic cable cores to keep the strands a constant distance from the cable centre to avoid this issue - just use solid cable....

Soild cable is tough to bend, but how often do you move your amp or speakers? It does have the advantage of staying put when you route it.

Finally, unless you don't like the look, there is no need to strip mains 'twin and earth' solid cable and twist the conductors. This provides no audible benefit. The inductive effect mentioned above is dependent on the conductors being run close together, not being twisted. There are a number of 'HiFi' speaker cables (Naim being one) that run conductors in parallel without a twist.

So for about 50p per metre, you can buy 2.5mmsq solid copper twin and earth cable, which I believe makes excellent speaker cable. Unlike most nonsense claims for cables, there is actually a solid (no pun intended) basis for solid cables have sonic (but probably inaudible) benefits over stranded.
no the hifi stays were it is all the time . i did read that solid silver core is much better to use but much more money to buy but silver coated sliver will sound bright but not sure if this claim is true or not . but i went on the audioquest web site last night and there top cables sell for around £23.000 which is shocking
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
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Striping and twisting the two cores is primarily for cosmetic reasons. As of course is the sheathing.

We used to use the old 'Black and Decker' to twist the cable into a nice even twisted pair, theoretically tightly twisted enough to affect the inductance. We could hear no difference.

At the time, in the Australian market where I was working, Monster cable a A$5 a metre was the de-facto standard and everyone was convinced that our solid core sounded better, so we charged A$10 a metre.

The store owner (in Bondi junction, where all this took place) was a chap called Mathew Bond, one night after work and over a drink, we were chatting and he said he was planning to move to the USA and start a cable company. He even told me what he was going to call it and I laughed and took the micky out of his ridiculous idea for a name.

He was going to call it "Tara Labs Space and Time Cable". How I laughed...*biggrin*
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
289
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10,970
Vladimir said:
Audioquest Type 4 or 8 from a spool is an option. Type 4 has a bit of lean character in the lower frequencies.

Also you ca buy quality CAT5 ethernet cable and braid your own high end speaker cable.
I want to keep my options open here before making cables up but looked up the audioquest type 8 that's been discontinued and CAT5 is a computer Internet cable unless I looked at this wrong . Richer sounds in the uk sell rocket 33 and type 4 but not sure what gage's this are so not to sure which one to look at ?
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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andyjm said:
Finally, unless you don't like the look, there is no need to strip mains 'twin and earth' solid cable and twist the conductors. This provides no audible benefit. The inductive effect mentioned above is dependent on the conductors being run close together, not being twisted. There are a number of 'HiFi' speaker cables (Naim being one) that run conductors in parallel without a twist.
Twisting the solid core wires together cancels out the paralel wire inductance, which otherwise can throw many amps into oscilation and effectively frying themselves. I've experienced this at my own peril.

Running multistrand wires in paralel is not the same as two thick cores.

Naim is not a good example for how a typical amp behaves, neither is NAC A5 compared to solid core conductors.



I used twin solid core wire that is used for carrying electricity to my house from the poll (chunky mofo), and looks exactly like the NAC A5, but it's solid cores, not multistrand. I used it on two of my amps and both went super hot within half an hour of playing music and sound was really odd, sort of closed down, 2D-ish. I twisted the wires with superhuman strength, effectively lost the distance between the conductors, but significantly reduced inductance and the second amp immediately improved sound and cooled off. The first amp eventually died few months later when I put it to work in my main setup.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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TrevC said:
ellisdj said:
That particular high capacitance recipe can be disastrous for some SS amplifiers and speakers (it can cause parasitic oscillation damaging both amplifier and tweeters) and has no advantages.
It's been reported to happen. I haven't gone too high gauge and had no noticable issues.

I personally don't bother with cables any more. I now just buy by gauge from the pro shop spool and I'm chuffed with the results (and the bill) each and every time.
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
540
1
0
Blacksabbath25 said:
Vladimir said:
Audioquest Type 4 or 8 from a spool is an option. Type 4 has a bit of lean character in the lower frequencies.

Also you ca buy quality CAT5 ethernet cable and braid your own high end speaker cable.
I want to keep my options open here before making cables up but looked up the audioquest type 8 that's been discontinued and CAT5 is a computer Internet cable unless I looked at this wrong . Richer sounds in the uk sell rocket 33 and type 4 but not sure what gage's this are so not to sure which one to look at ?
Are you actually looking at the links some folks gave you? :)
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
289
77
10,970
i phoned richer sounds up to find out about the rocket 33 cable but its meant for bi-wiring so asked if audeoquest will turn this cable into single run cable or i can buy this with out plugs and fit them myself but the cables will look better if audioquest terminats it there end
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
289
77
10,970
drummerman said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Vladimir said:
Audioquest Type 4 or 8 from a spool is an option. Type 4 has a bit of lean character in the lower frequencies.

Also you ca buy quality CAT5 ethernet cable and braid your own high end speaker cable.
I want to keep my options open here before making cables up but looked up the audioquest type 8 that's been discontinued and CAT5 is a computer Internet cable unless I looked at this wrong . Richer sounds in the uk sell rocket 33 and type 4 but not sure what gage's this are so not to sure which one to look at ?
Are you actually looking at the links some folks gave you? :)
yes i am thank you just plainning the best why to go about this *smile*
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
289
77
10,970
Vladimir said:
andyjm said:
Finally, unless you don't like the look, there is no need to strip mains 'twin and earth' solid cable and twist the conductors. This provides no audible benefit. The inductive effect mentioned above is dependent on the conductors being run close together, not being twisted. There are a number of 'HiFi' speaker cables (Naim being one) that run conductors in parallel without a twist.
Twisting the solid core wires together cancels out the paralel wire inductance, which otherwise can throw many amps into oscilation and effectively frying themselves. I've experienced this at my own peril.

Running multistrand wires in paralel is not the same as two thick cores.

Naim is not a good example for how a typical amp behaves, neither is NAC A5 compared to solid core conductors.

I used twin solid core wire that is used for carrying electricity to my house from the poll (chunky mofo), and looks exactly like the NAC A5, but it's solid cores, not multistrand. I used it on two of my amps and both went super hot within half an hour of playing music and sound was really odd, sort of closed down, 2D-ish. I twisted the wires with superhuman strength, effectively lost the distance between the conductors, but significantly reduced inductance and the second amp immediately improved sound and cooled off. The first amp eventually died few months later when I put it to work in my main setup.
this is what i am worried about i do not want to blow up my amp and speakers so this is why i am looking at audioquest as its safer but thank you to everyone who has give me the info and links
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
540
1
0
Blacksabbath25 said:
drummerman said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Vladimir said:
Audioquest Type 4 or 8 from a spool is an option. Type 4 has a bit of lean character in the lower frequencies.

Also you ca buy quality CAT5 ethernet cable and braid your own high end speaker cable.
I want to keep my options open here before making cables up but looked up the audioquest type 8 that's been discontinued and CAT5 is a computer Internet cable unless I looked at this wrong . Richer sounds in the uk sell rocket 33 and type 4 but not sure what gage's this are so not to sure which one to look at ?
Are you actually looking at the links some folks gave you? :)
yes i am thank you just plainning the best why to go about this *smile*
If I was you, I'd get one solid core silver plated copper conductor plus one tin plated one (they go up to about 2.5mm each at wires.co.uk , a couple of filler tubes for spacing, twist them around each other, thread each conductor through cotton tubing and wrap it all up nicely in cotton braiding. You can double up if you feel you need 5mm conductors ... .

Sleeving, fillers etc you can find at the Hifi Collective.

You end up with a (very) decent cable incorporating some of the 'claimed best aspects' of cable construction at not much money. Downside is it will be less flexible but once bent should stay in place.

Just another thought. - Let us know how you get on.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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Every audiophile has a 'cable phase' that involves experimenting, for some even DIY-ing.

Innocence is abundant with optimism.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
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Agree made loads of cables now - great fun but not cheap if you want to it properly - good bits costs money.

Especially if you have your cable DCT at the spool stage :)
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
540
1
0
Vladimir said:
Every audiophile has a 'cable phase' that involves experimenting, for some even DIY-ing.

Innocence is abundant with optimism.
Not sure about the innocence bit but it sure beats pressing a button to change a digital filter setting in the fun stakes.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
4
0
drummerman said:
Vladimir said:
Every audiophile has a 'cable phase' that involves experimenting, for some even DIY-ing.

Innocence is abundant with optimism.
Not sure about the innocence bit but it sure beats pressing a button to change a digital filter setting in the fun stakes.
I meant me being opstimistic in those years thinking that things wont blow up this time. *crazy*
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
540
1
0
Vladimir said:
drummerman said:
Vladimir said:
Every audiophile has a 'cable phase' that involves experimenting, for some even DIY-ing.

Innocence is abundant with optimism.
Not sure about the innocence bit but it sure beats pressing a button to change a digital filter setting in the fun stakes.
I meant me being opstimistic in those years thinking that things wont blow up this time. *crazy*
:)
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
289
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10,970
ok i have chickened out and brought some audioquest rocket 33 soild core with plugs £277 3 meter pair . but i will still try and make a cable just to try out and see but thanks for the help people *smile*
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
326
135
19,070
Blacksabbath25 said:
ok i have chickened out and brought some audioquest rocket 33 soild core with plugs £277 3 meter pair . but i will still try and make a cable just to try out and see but thanks for the help people *smile*
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
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My recipe would be this - lots of thinner strands of teflon coated OCC Copper - guess at 0.7mm

Long pieces of tubed natural bleach free cotton - this is your filler and need to select the right diameter 6mm or so.

Pain staking wrapping the occ copper strands round the cotton tube 1 run at a time at say 1 inch interval all the same way, cables all laid next to each other around the cotton core until you have the desired overall awg.

Wrap this up in ptfe tape or cotton tape making sure its all snug and wont move.

Thats 1 single run and you need 4 runs

Then overall twist the positive and negative runs together at say every 4 - 6 inchs and keep it together with something else like cotton tape.

It will be a beast to try and wield into place but a damn good sounding one I think.

Time done all that might as well had bought the VH Audio Chela - or better yet some XLO if you can find some
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
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Surprised they can sell these as it looks to be violation of this patent

Just like in the embodiments illustrated in FIGS. 1D and 1E, the circular solid conductors of this embodiment could be used in different gauges to account for varying frequency ranges. In this embodiment, in addition to bass and midrange effects provided by a large gauge or a small gauge circular solid conductor, the magnet wire conductor provides for the high frequency capabilities of the cable.

According to the present invention, the conductors used in various embodiments of the signal cable can be of varying gauges. Further, the conductors utilized can be of varying geometric shapes. The quantity and types of conductors in the cable of the invention can be chosen according to signal that the cable is expected to carry. The primary principle of the present invention which remains unchanged in all of the embodiments is that one signal-carrying cable comprises at least two types of different conductors. Although not all possible combinations of conductors within the cable of the invention are specifically described/illustrated in this specification, one of ordinary skill in the relevant art will recognize that any audio signal cable not described here but employing two or more types of different conductors is within the scope of this invention. Some representative embodiments of the present invention where the cable contains more than two types of different conductors are presented below.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
289
77
10,970
Vladimir said:
Did you get the double star-quad geometry?
double star quad but they told me you can use it as single run cable as i do not bother with the bi- wiring thing . then the next cable up from that was the 44 which adds a £100 on top just to have a little bit more copper on the core but they told me this cables are the cheapest cables from audioquest the start of the range but if you feeling flush they do some for £23.000 cheap *wacko* not ! solid silver cables . but even though i got this i will still will have a play at making my own up so i will be buying some solid silver from wires .uk and see what they will sound like
 

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