I've got some B&W DM601 speakers with a Marantz pm4400 amp and a Marantz CD5400 cd player. The room is fairly small (6 x 4 meters) and I play music at a relatively low volume as the house is semi-detached and I need to keep the neighbours happy. My problem is that I find the sound a bit dull - not enough punch. There seems to be far too much bottom end. What would you recommend me to upgrade - the amp or the speakers. Are the current speakers too big for the playing at fairly low volume in a small room? What do you think?
Small room system
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I've got Dm 601 s3's that I had in my dorm room at uni, I found that was
bassy too. I think that they are generally a very warm sounding
speaker. I'm guessing that being a small room they are near the walls
in the corner, if so move them away from the wall (about 50cms ish, not too sure about how much, a bit of trial and error here I think). I also found they
sound better with the grills off, just brightens them up a little in
my opinion, plus they look better. Have you got the ports bunged? that
might help too. Or swap your speaker wire from copper to silver, I was
told by the guy in richer sounds silver wire is generally brighter
sounding (don't know if he was just trying to flog me some more
expensive wire though. Didn't work anyway). I think it's worth trying
some of these before going for a new speaker, cheaper if anything else.
I'd wait for one the people who really know what they're on about to post some suggestions (they're the one's who've figured out how to get the avatars to work... damn computers defeating me again
)
bassy too. I think that they are generally a very warm sounding
speaker. I'm guessing that being a small room they are near the walls
in the corner, if so move them away from the wall (about 50cms ish, not too sure about how much, a bit of trial and error here I think). I also found they
sound better with the grills off, just brightens them up a little in
my opinion, plus they look better. Have you got the ports bunged? that
might help too. Or swap your speaker wire from copper to silver, I was
told by the guy in richer sounds silver wire is generally brighter
sounding (don't know if he was just trying to flog me some more
expensive wire though. Didn't work anyway). I think it's worth trying
some of these before going for a new speaker, cheaper if anything else.
I'd wait for one the people who really know what they're on about to post some suggestions (they're the one's who've figured out how to get the avatars to work... damn computers defeating me again
matthewpiano
Well-known member
- Nov 23, 2007
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I'd lay the blame with your amp. The PM4400 isn't Marantz' finest moment and can sound very lethargic and flat at low volumes. I think you'll get much more out of the speakers by changing the amp.
I'd highly recommend looking at the following for a significant improvement:
Pioneer A400 (2nd hand)
Pretty much any Rotel amp, whether new or 2nd hand
NAD C325BEE (2nd hand) or C326BEE (new)
All of these work well at low volumes and have plenty of punch to their sound to get the B&Ws going.
If you have the budget to buy both second hand I'm finding my Pioneer/Mission amp/speakers combination very good at all volumes, including very low ones. I live in an appartment so low level performance is very important for me too. Amp + speakers cost me £250 total from a dealer, fully serviced and with a 3 month warranty.
Another combination I've found excellent at low levels was NAD C325BEE with Mordaunt-Short MS902i. Buy a C320BEE 2nd hand (virtually the same) and you could bag both items for less than £200.
I'd highly recommend looking at the following for a significant improvement:
Pioneer A400 (2nd hand)
Pretty much any Rotel amp, whether new or 2nd hand
NAD C325BEE (2nd hand) or C326BEE (new)
All of these work well at low volumes and have plenty of punch to their sound to get the B&Ws going.
If you have the budget to buy both second hand I'm finding my Pioneer/Mission amp/speakers combination very good at all volumes, including very low ones. I live in an appartment so low level performance is very important for me too. Amp + speakers cost me £250 total from a dealer, fully serviced and with a 3 month warranty.
Another combination I've found excellent at low levels was NAD C325BEE with Mordaunt-Short MS902i. Buy a C320BEE 2nd hand (virtually the same) and you could bag both items for less than £200.
Dougal1331
Well-known member
- Dec 30, 2007
- 77
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- 18,570
I'd second the Rotel nomination- they make a good partnership with B&Ws.
Models to look out for in particular: RA930ax, 931, 935, 940, 941 and 971mk2.
Models to look out for in particular: RA930ax, 931, 935, 940, 941 and 971mk2.
Thanks for the replies - very useful. I did move the speakers away from the wall, and removed the grills and I think it did make a difference. Not sure what you mean by 'have you got the ports bunged'?
I still can't help hearing the bass more than anything else (including vocals) however - which is not right!
I tried the NAD 315 next to a Marantz amp over the weekend, and the NAD did seem a little brighter. I take it that the 326BEE would be the same (if not better).
Anyway, I've decided to give the NAD 325BEE or the 326BEE a go, and am looking for a good deal on ebay.
Anyway, thanks again for your advice
I still can't help hearing the bass more than anything else (including vocals) however - which is not right!
I tried the NAD 315 next to a Marantz amp over the weekend, and the NAD did seem a little brighter. I take it that the 326BEE would be the same (if not better).
Anyway, I've decided to give the NAD 325BEE or the 326BEE a go, and am looking for a good deal on ebay.
Anyway, thanks again for your advice
before 'upgrading' or spending money, move your speakers further away from the wall, or closer to the wall, toe them in or out etc and see if you hear any differences ...
am sure that if you experiment with different speaker placements, you will hear differences ... Nice system you have there so dont be too hasty in upgrading
am sure that if you experiment with different speaker placements, you will hear differences ... Nice system you have there so dont be too hasty in upgrading
Are you single wiring or biwiring? If the former, what are you using between the terminals on the speakers? Also what cable are you using? Are they situated on good stands?
When I was talking about having the ports bunged, I meant blocking the reflex port (the hole at the bottom of the speaker below the bass/mid speaker). You should have got a couple of foam cylinders when you bought the speakers, if you didn't or have lost them then roll up a sock and block the opening of the hole up. This should change the bass sound, less deep bass, more mid bass.
Using single wiring. Not sure how you would describe the cable, but it seems to be good quality and the guy in the shop recommended it. Have to admit that the speakers are currently resting on a couple of books on a solid floor - the misses doesn't like stands.
I tried bunging the ports last night with a couple of socks. This did seem to make some difference. I'm going to try and find the original foam cylinders tonight. Thanks for your help. Things are improving slowly.
Speakers tend to sound more bassy if they're on the floor in my experience, no idea why. I remember reading the B&W setup bumf and it said that you should try to use the speakers tweeter as the part of the speaker which is direclty aimed at you. If you wife is that opposed to stands how about this. My brother bought a set of very simple stands from ikea, a good few years ago mind, which kept the speakers on the floor ( raised about 10cm) but held the speakers so they angled up at about 30 degrees. This sort of thing might help you aim the tweeters at you more and keep your other half happy. But as I said I've no idea if they still do anything like that anymore or where else you could find similar stands. Just try to get them aiming at your head and not your feet, feet generally have no ears so there's no point in them haveing all the treble.
I have the B&W DM601s too and a small listening room also. So i would agree, at first i found problems with the speakers in my tiny space, but moving the speakers forward from the wall did make a big improvement. Also sitting so you are ear level to the tweeters is a good idea, any lower and it all got a bit boomy and the bass overwhelmed the sound. I think perhaps due of the nature of the Marantz amplifier, maybe it is causing you to turn up the sound to get that puchy dynamic sound you are looking for ? Marantz is a great brand for cd players and i have one and i find it very relaxed and refined sounding.
I think you should go for a different amplifier in this case. The speakers are certainly not dull sounding to my ears. Im no expert in amplifiers but i think you need a nice exposure amp like an old version 2010 or XX. These can be found for around £200. But i dont think this is a difficult situation for you - its just to find a more suitable/compatible amp.
Good luck !
I think you should go for a different amplifier in this case. The speakers are certainly not dull sounding to my ears. Im no expert in amplifiers but i think you need a nice exposure amp like an old version 2010 or XX. These can be found for around £200. But i dont think this is a difficult situation for you - its just to find a more suitable/compatible amp.
Good luck !
as the above poster says, you really should have the tweeter around ear level. also, work on the missus, some half decent stands can make a huge difference. the further you can lift the speaker from the floor, the less the floor will reinforce the bass.
gez100:
I've got some B&W DM601 speakers with a Marantz pm4400 amp and a Marantz CD5400 cd player. The room is fairly small (6 x 4 meters) and I play music at a relatively low volume as the house is semi-detached and I need to keep the neighbours happy. My problem is that I find the sound a bit dull - not enough punch. There seems to be far too much bottom end. What would you recommend me to upgrade - the amp or the speakers. Are the current speakers too big for the playing at fairly low volume in a small room? What do you think?
Exposure's new range is coming out, the upgraded 2010SE is due out soon, which means the 2010s is going to come down in price. More than capable amp, it'll give you plenty of punch and will withstand a CDP or DAC upgrade. RRP for around £600, expect to see prices drop sharply.
I've got some B&W DM601 speakers with a Marantz pm4400 amp and a Marantz CD5400 cd player. The room is fairly small (6 x 4 meters) and I play music at a relatively low volume as the house is semi-detached and I need to keep the neighbours happy. My problem is that I find the sound a bit dull - not enough punch. There seems to be far too much bottom end. What would you recommend me to upgrade - the amp or the speakers. Are the current speakers too big for the playing at fairly low volume in a small room? What do you think?
Exposure's new range is coming out, the upgraded 2010SE is due out soon, which means the 2010s is going to come down in price. More than capable amp, it'll give you plenty of punch and will withstand a CDP or DAC upgrade. RRP for around £600, expect to see prices drop sharply.
I had the B&W 601s2 speakers and had them on a chest of drawers and the bass was appallingly flabby. I got a pair of Atacama Nexus 6 stands,put a 4 bigblobs of blu-tack on the top of each stands and put the speakers on. Sorted the bass out wonderfully.
I wouldnt waste money on upgrading your amp as I dont think this willmake much difference until you get your speakers on stands.
I'd definately work on the mrs. Surely proper stands will look neater than them sitting on books?
Stands are also a damn sight cheaper than buying a new amp!!
I wouldnt waste money on upgrading your amp as I dont think this willmake much difference until you get your speakers on stands.
I'd definately work on the mrs. Surely proper stands will look neater than them sitting on books?
Stands are also a damn sight cheaper than buying a new amp!!
It's unfortunate that both your amp and CD player have poor bass performance, which isn't a help - particularly if your listening environment doesn't suit your speakers. I've recently written something relevant about the same CD player and amp in my third paragraph here: http://community.whathifi.com/forums/p/329337/329337.aspx#329337
Your proposed amp upgrade or similar might be the best option - I don't know since I've never
heard that amp or your speakers - but it's also possible that
you would end up having to upgrade your CD player and maybe your amp again before the problem was sufficiently lessened. In view of this and of the above, if you can cope with bass-light speakers then a speaker downgrade might be the most predictably effective option, and possibly the least expensive. Wharfedale Diamond 9.0s (currently being advertised on-line for £50) + decent stands are probably suitable candidates although I haven't heard them yet. (I'm thinking of downgrading or "sidegrading" my Tannoys to Diamond 9.0s to use with my PM4400 as my TV amp and speakers in a very small space).
Your proposed amp upgrade or similar might be the best option - I don't know since I've never
heard that amp or your speakers - but it's also possible that
you would end up having to upgrade your CD player and maybe your amp again before the problem was sufficiently lessened. In view of this and of the above, if you can cope with bass-light speakers then a speaker downgrade might be the most predictably effective option, and possibly the least expensive. Wharfedale Diamond 9.0s (currently being advertised on-line for £50) + decent stands are probably suitable candidates although I haven't heard them yet. (I'm thinking of downgrading or "sidegrading" my Tannoys to Diamond 9.0s to use with my PM4400 as my TV amp and speakers in a very small space).
I have had the cd player you currently have and found it very soft and overall very underwhelming for my tastes, I guess the PM4400 might suffer the same, certainly wouldnt say the 601's should be too much to blame for your problems.
I moved from a low end Marrantz amp with my 601 s2's and it was a revelaton to be honest, everything changed.
Also the 601's deffo need a set of decent heavy stands to tighten all the low end up, again should be night and day.
I moved from a low end Marrantz amp with my 601 s2's and it was a revelaton to be honest, everything changed.
Also the 601's deffo need a set of decent heavy stands to tighten all the low end up, again should be night and day.
Bunging the ports (currently with a pair of socks), and moving the speakers away from the wall seems to have made a lot of difference. Couldn't find the proper bungs that came with the sytem in the attic, so I've asked B&W if they'll send me a pair.
I'm going to give the new setup a week or two of listening, but things are sounding much better. Thanks for all your replies. It's good to find a forum with helpful positive people.
I'm going to give the new setup a week or two of listening, but things are sounding much better. Thanks for all your replies. It's good to find a forum with helpful positive people.
it's sad when people have to use old socks or straws in speakers ... suppose it's just one of those things
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