Should I replace my old Denon PMA-350SE with new Marantz / Rotel ?

[jesmat]

For the past 17 years I've been listening to:

Denon PMA-350SE amp

Denon DCD-1015 cd player

Mordaunt-Short MS10i speakers

The cd player has struggled to read some of my newer CDs and I also wanted to upgrade the speakers. So, based entirely on the What Hifi and other glowing reviews, I've just bought:

Q Acoustics Concept 20 speakers

Marantz CD6005 cd player

I've often thought the PMA-350SE is a bit too refined. It's a decent amp but lacks punch, especially at the lower volume levels I tend to listen at. So it can sound flat.

I'm prepared to spend up to £400 for an amp that will bring out the best in my new cd player and speakers. I can't find any detailed reviews of the Marantz PM6005 amp but the Rotel RA-10 looks the obvious choice. Question is, is the Rotel RA-10 likely to be a big improvement on my old Denon?

Any help / advice would be appreciated.

 

[CarlDW]

Personally I would be looking to spend more to hear a big improvement. Arcam A19, Creek 50A spring to mind. The Concept 20's will sound even better with decent amplification.

 

[jesmat]

Thanks for the reply.

Do you think the Rega Brio R is also a decent choice?

 

[stevebrock]

Thanks for the reply.

Do you think the Rega Brio R is also a decent choice?

Very! the best sub £500 amp IMO

 

[d_a_n1979]

Rega Brio R would be a superb choice as would the NAD D3020 also

New or second hand IMO

Others to consider (2nd hand) would be

Arcam Alpha 10 pr FMJ A32 (both £1k award winners in their day and still stunning amps; IMO Arcam haven't made better since)

NAD C352, C355 or C356BEE (yes built like battleships but with a stonking sound and brilliant punch)

Cyrus 8VS2 (fast, deep and taut sounding and a stunning amp all together)

 

[CarlDW]

The Rega Brio R is a stunning amp and will work great with the Concept 20s.

 

[jesmat]

Thanks for all the replies - much appreciated.

After more or less deciding to go for the Rega, I've realised that it doesn't have a balance control. My hearing is slightly biased towards my right ear, so a balance control is useful for correcting this.

I'm now edging towards the Arcam A19. Does this sound like a good match with the Concept 20's and Marantz CD6005? The only doubt I have over this is the comment in WHF's review: "There’s still a tiny hint of restraint, a reluctance to completely let itself loose and go wild". That sounds a bit like the Denon 350se I'm replacing, but I guess the Arcam is in higher league altogether. And I'm slightly reassured by one of the comments under on the Concept 20 review saying: "...we've had great results with Arcam's A 19..."

I know the only true test is to listen to the Arcam in action, but any comments would be welcome.

Cheers.

 

[jesmat]

Duplicate post

 

[CarlDW]

The Arcam A19 will work a treat with the Concept 20s, but as always try before you buy! The Concept 20s can be used happily with some much pricier amplification.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I think the Rotel would be a good match for those speakers.

You should try and get a demo with your speakers and CDplayer.

In my experience with a Rotel the sound is clean and assertive at lowish levels - the bass is punchy if not textured. Only issue with the Rotel sound in my set up was it lacked weight/timbre in the mid range and speaker control at higher levels - but my speakers are very different to yours.

I'd suggest if it is possible to test both amps with your kit.... bring a copy of your worst recorded CD and the best too.

I would not go much over that sort of budget for the concepts.

 

[jesmat]

Thanks for the comments. I must admit, the What HiFi review of the Arcam has spooked me a bit. Things like...

There is a modicum of restraint to voices, however, which can rob a song of its emotional insight – the connection to Palmer’s lyrics falls a little flat, and this quality leaves us feeling a little bit underwhelmed. The overall presentation feels a bit too sedate, and there’s a sense of wanting to urge the Arcam on just a bit more to a more exciting and involving performance.

...doesn't fill with me confidence, even if it is a good sounding amp.

I take your point about possibly going overboard with £600/£700 amp compared to the rest of my system. But as the Creek Evolution 50A is selling at a slight discount (£675) I've arranged to trial that amp. If it blows my socks off I'll keep it, otherwise I probably try the Rotel RA-10. Who knows, I may even stick with my old Denon 350SE !

 

[CarlDW]

The Creek is highly regarded on these forums and other hifi mags. Let us know your thoughts!

 

[drummerman]

Neither. Imho buy a Sony STR DB930

regards

 

[the record spot]

If you like that Denon, which was decent in its day. You might keep an eye out for a Marantz PM-80 amp. They crop up very occasionally on Ebay. They turn in around 80wpc, big beefy amp and a bigger brother to the then much liked PM-44SE.

I would also suggest the higher end Harman Kardon's, the HK6850 or the 6950. I have the former and it's a very impressive amp for the money. See also the Sony ES range amps. Mistakenly vastly underrated by the hifi types out there.

Any of the above you should expect to find for under £200 secondhand. Usual caveats about buying used gear apply, but I'm assuming you'll check the seller or dealer is reputable.

 

[jesmat]

Thanks as always for everyone's replies - much appreciated. I think I'm getting there.

I'm still awaiting a try out of the Creek amp. The only other thing I can think of to improve my system is the cabling. I'm happy with the quality of my system's interconnects but was wondering with it's worth me doing something with my speaker cable. I'm currently using 18 year old Cable Talk 'Talk 3.1'.

Firstly, is it worth considering an upgrade for use with a Marantz CD6005, Concept 20's and possibly the Creek Evolution 50A? If so, what cable should I consider?

Secondly, each speaker cable measures about 7 metres. I now only need around 3 metres and so over half of each cable is curled up on the floor. Would I notice any difference in sound quality if I reduced the cable length from 7m to 3m?

My hunch is the answer to both questions is 'no' but any advice would be welcome.

Cheers.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi jesmat

I'll advice you to carry on using the Cable Talk 3.1 speaker cable. Reduce the cables length but try and ensure the cables are of the same length. If you still wish to change speaker cables then standard 79 strand or at a push 500 strand OFC speaker cables are worth bearing in mind. Fwiw, I use standard. 500 strand OFC speaker cables with Concept 20 speakers which are sometimes being powered with amplification such as Naim NAP 250, Plinius Hiato and a Krell FPB600.

Btw, if it's not too late then I'll also recommend that you should also consider a NAD C370 and Rotel's RA-1062 (both of which I've found to work well with Concept 20 speakers).

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[atishaysingh]

So lets put it this way.

As i can can see. If you are buying now chosse between Rotel or the Rega.

I have an Arcam A 19 and as the reveiw also suggests it can feel a bit laid back. although i may be wrong just been a month with them now. But yes A 19 has the scale to match could be a great option.

Also if you can wait for the Marantz PM6005 to be reveiwed its great as its got same sonic signature as the cd player. Remote control will be the same. the dealer and the service centre. So i think going for the same going for the same brand would help.

A 19 is definetly an amp from a different league though. Though one.

Best...

 

[audipheonix]

You could also try Exposure 1010 int amp. I have listened to its big brother 2010s, but for your budget you could try this. I really liked the presentation, it was full bodied with good presentation and no brightnesss what so ever.

 

[Viking]

I've just bought a pair of B&W 683's after hearing and being rather disappointed with the sound of the concept 20's. My intention was to buy the concept 20's and use them with my old Denon PMA 250 iii. The Denon is a warm sound and although goes well with the B&W's, it's not quite powerful enough to drive the 683's fully. The amp seems to get a bit hotter than it used to! I listen to bands like Slayer, Trivium and most other music as well and have always liked the sound of the Denon. Maybe your Denon is enough for you and you don't need to change it.

I'm not sure yet what to go for myself, but I think I've got to change my Denon for power reasons, not sound. Maybe the Nad C365BEE but have also read that the Rega Brio-R is a good amp. Just don't know if it's enough to drive the B&W's.

 

[matthewpiano]

If you don't want dull, steer clear of the entry-level Arcams IMO. I've owned A65+, A70, and A18. The A65+ was the best of the three but still not exactly dynamic. The A70 was a total damp squid and I found the A18 struggles to really grip a lot of speakers. The A19 isn't that different to the '18..... In my experience these entry Arcams are not a league above and I'd much rather have something like a PM6005, Pioneer A30 or Rotel RA10.

Pioneer could prove to be a good call for what you are looking for. Very clear and precise sound from the A30 with just a touch of warmth, and it is a bit of a bargain. Otherwise I'd go for the Marantz (I've had the PM6004 and it was an excellent amp). Marantz + Q Acoustics is a very strong combination.

I can't comment on the Creek, but I did have an older amp of theirs (4340) and it was superb.

All my opinion of course, and nothing beats listening for yourself.

 

[jesmat]

Update: I have now tested the Creek Evolution 50A as a replacement for my old Denon 350SE.

I had a good listen to it with a selection of my CDs: The Divine Comedy - A Secret History, The Staves - Dead & Born & Grown, The Revillos - Rev Up, Jefferson Airplane - Surrealistic Pillow, Beautiful South - Blue Is The Colour, Blur - Leisure and Jessie Matthews (Recordings 1927-1942).

On the plus side, the Creek has marginally finer detail / separation. But the bass seems to be slightly lacking and it didn't give the punchy sound I was hoping for. After a few hours I plugged my Denon back in, put on The Divine Comedy's "The Summerhouse" and "Gin Soaked Boy". I swear the Denon never sounded so good. The bass was spot on and the speakers were really singing.

So the upshot is I've returned the Creek and will be sticking with my Denon for the foreseeable future. I think it cost me £250 new 18 years ago and to my ears, in my system, it sounds better than the £750 Creek. I wish I'd have done this comparison a few years ago as I think I would have appreciated the Denon a lot more.

 

[Blackdawn]

Good to see you have kept the Denon. My Denon PMA-250SE is still going strong and sounding great. I would say either of the entry level NADs would also go well with the Q acoustics speakers

 

[philpot1001]

Interesting read! I've also got a pma-350se, I've been thinking about getting a Rega Brio-R, but I'm def going to make sure I compare back to back with my Dennon