Red Rose and Densen... long post warning

[insider9]

Changing the subject slightly, I would be interested in how you are getting on with the Red Rose Classics. They, and the smaller Rosebuds, have some interesting qualities and I really like those ribbon tweeters, I was quite familier with them at the time but have not heard them for some years. They do seem to need some power though, we used the RR Afirmation amplifier, a 'variable' class A design, somewhere between the Krell 'sustained plateau' and true class A.

Where do I start?

I've used and loved Rosebuds. I've sold them some time in August. Missed what they did instantly. For unamplified music they were a dream and as you say the ribbons added so much. I knew ultimately they were not the right speaker for me. I needed something more universal, something that could handle heavy metal as well as jazz. I'm a big fan of ribbon tweeters anyway so I've actually contacted the only person in the UK I knew ever had a pair of Classics on sale. He somehow didn't sell them and eventually I got them.

Classics are a different beast altogether as you say. He also run his on the end of RR Affirmation (250Wpc) and then Musical Fidelity KW250's (250Wpc mono blocks). When he told me that I'd need a minimum of 200Wpc my heart sunk When I brought them home I only had a measly Naim 5i-2 (50Wpc) and Roksan L3 (120Wpc). I've reasearch Red Rose and found that Mark Levinson created the whole range so that it can be run with valves. Whether this applies to Classics I'm not sure as information is scarce.

As I expected by earlier experiences with power hungry Jamo Concert 7s Naim couldn't manage to drive them well. Felt shouty and uncomfortable at around 10 o'clock on the dial. Low level listening was fine but dynamics non existent at these SPL levels. Roksan L3 (120Wpc) on the other hand did no such thing. That gave me hope. The bass was well controlled though big and the whole presentation quite warm. It had a thump when it needed, scale and authority. However I knew I was missing out on detail.

Somewhere around that time I've started a thread regarding PRaT and Drummerman suggested Densen. Thanks DM

What did you get?

There was a second hand B-110 from their UK dealer with only one previous owner and 12 months warranty. I've dealt with them before and decided to give them a call. After a brief chat I knew I had to give it a try. Ok, it's only 60Wpc into 8 ohms but it doubles to 120Wpc into 4 ohms. But looking at specs and design I was begining to think it may be interesting at least. Especially as I could always send it back. Power supply 360VA, 60.000uF for only 60Wpc and no global feedback. At the very same time an Abrahamsen V2.0 came up for sale and I was a little torn. But considering I can afford a new Abrahamsen I went with Densen.

For goodness sake... how does it sound already?

Gorgeous!

Red Rose do a few things very, very well. Top to bottom, airy and precise in treble. No harshness. Midrange is lush and open and Densen helps here with stunning amount of detail. I am actually selling my AKG K712 now as my speakers can deliver more detail than these headphones that are considered to be studio reference. Vocals float in a 3d soundstage and have this ghostly nature appearing and disappering in thin air. Bass is very tuneful. Texture is just superb, the sound of double bass is just right. Not too thich not too thin and harmonics are done superbly thanks to ribbons. Densen made a difference here as Roksan just had too much bass with not enough texture. I could easily listen to Densen uncorrected that was not possible with Roksan, I had to attentuate bass. It would just excite the room too much.

Are they only good with unamplified music like the Rosebuds? No, sir. They feel as comfortable with slow grinding guitars of Soundgarden as Charlie Haden's bass. Just as at ease with blood pumping, thumping At the Drive In as with the new "Nat King Cole & Me" by Gregory Porter.

What about the amp?

Thanks to Densen the presentation is very musical. It's not the Naim "I'm going to get you" musical. It's not the energetic Roksan, that I felt made everything sound slighlty faster than it was. Densen just lets music flow. Slow tracks are just that but you can feel the groove. The uptempo ones will make you want to move. Transients are repoduce very well and dynamic shifts are more than I can handle. Where Naim would feel uncomfortable playing music beyound certain volume with Densen I feel uncomfortable listening to music beyond certain volume. It stays composed and in control from low volume all the way. Low level listening is also very pleasant with no lack of detail or imaging. The one difference that I was always not sure about Naim was how it handled cymbals. They just sounded a little artificial and shimmery on most tracks. It's fine with some speakers but isn't reproduce all that well with ribbons.

Downsides you say? Sure a couple...

Speakers are huge and heavy and I hardly made it up the stairs. They have a small sweetspot which in my case is not a problem although I'm at the closest I'd suggest to using them. It would not be possible in that setup if it wasn't for room treatment. Would they sound better with a more powerful amp? Perhaps, but at the volume I require Densen produces more than I bargained for. Would they sound better in a bigger room? Sure but that's what I've got at present.

What about the amp it sounds perfect?

Not so fast... it isn't but the synergy is amazing. So what's not so good about it? On day one I switched the amp and played music all day at background levels not really paying much attention to it. Listened to a few tracks at the end of the day and initial thought were positive. Sadly I didn't have time or energy for more. The next day I decided to do some critical listening. Oh, no what have I done? It sounds, tinny, lacks timbre... not impressed at all. Amps was off all night and I've started from cold so maybe it need some warm up? One hour? no..., two hours? surely... not quite but better, two and a half? yes, we're getting there

So now it stays on all the time just like the Naim did before it.

Is that all? Not quite, it's very sensitive. It picks up and amplifies clicks from my network mains adapter. Perhaps a fancy power lead will be in order.

Where do you go from here?

I'll put some tunes on and enjoy.

Before I considered a DAC upgrade but not any more. Built a rack so that's also done. Don't really need more room treatment. Equipment wise I'm good for a while. Maybe some fancy cables just to see how they play on a more revealing system

Do you have any pics?

Have a look here​​​​​​​ if you haven't already

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Nice write up insider.I enjoyed the read...I remember you getting the speakers a couple of months back and you mentioned a future amplifier search.Glad it's starting to work out for you.

 

[seemorebtts]

That was a long one love them Speaker's. Are you not using deric live anymore

 

[insider9]

That was a long one love them Speaker's. Are you not using deric live anymore

I'm still correcting for the room but with Minidsp. Both IIR and FIR filter reminiscent to Dirac Live but fully manual. I've used the unit as active crossover for my diy speaker conversions and thought about an upgrade but for now the sound I'm getting is great so not planning any changes.

 

[insider9]

Glad you enjoyed my ramblings

 

[davedotco]

Thanks for such a detailed response, very interesting.

Some background on the Red Rose equipment.

Back at the end of the 90s, Mark Levinson did a deal with Victor Tiscarino of AudioPrism to 're-engineer' his line of valve amplifiers under the Red Rose Brand. He also brought in Bo Bengtsson to design a couple of ribbon hybrid loudspeakers.

These products were the original Red Rose line, built or assembled in the US, they were pretty expensive components, justified, to a degree, by the use throughout of hi end designer components.

The next step was to go to china and apply the Levinson magic to some Dussan brand electronics and some speakers from a company that markets its products under the name Aurum Cantus.

The Affirmation amplifier is a reworked Dussan 8i though the speakers, apart from the ribbons, are supposed to be designed by Red Rose though by whom seems a bit vague. The products were good but with the chinese 'originals' available at a fraction of the price, they were a pretty hard sell.

Red Rose was a relatively short lived company but in typical Levinson fashion their products were 'interesting'. One abiding memory was a recording of Levinsons 'own' jazz band played back on the 'Reference System' of Model 1 valve monoblock amplifiers and R1 floor standing ribbon hybrids. Astonishing!

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Very nice speakers your ribbon tweeters are near the middle like mine on my Dali opticon 8s I read somewhere it’s meant to help with midrange anyway great review glad you like them

 

[insider9]

Fascinating. I knew about the affiliation with Aurum Cantus which released many model after that incorporating ribbon tweeters including some with uncanny resemblance. But had no idea about Bo Bengston

 

[insider9]

Very nice speakers your ribbon tweeters are near the middle like mine on my Dali opticon 8s I read somewhere it’s meant to help with midrange anyway great review glad you like them

Thanks Sabbath. D'Apollito array has it's pluses and minuses. However I like the look of them as much as the sound so no problems there.

 

[CnoEvil]

Very readable and interesting review. *good*

 

[insider9]

Very readable and interesting review. *good*

Many thanks Cno!

 

[insider9]

Very readable and interesting review. *good*

Many thanks Cno!

 

[drummerman]

Thats a serious listening room.

Clearly no place for the wife

 

[insider9]

But cosy and quiet. No distractions like there would be downstairs.

Good call DM on the Densen I really didn't know what to expect but must admit really enjoying it. Also another Scandinavian brand I really enjoy. They certainly know how to make good sounding gear.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Good Intelligent write up with lots of thought minus the normal over excitement with new kit.

Very impressed with your rack you built.

 

[davedotco]

Fascinating. I knew about the affiliation with Aurum Cantus which released many model after that incorporating ribbon tweeters including some with uncanny resemblance. But had no idea about Bo Bengston

Bo's most recent company is Transmission Audio, their top model is reputed to cast $2 million a pair!

The baby Red Rose R3 was a terrific speaker, I used to partner it with the EL34 based Model 5 integrated amplifier at a package price of £10k for the set.

 

[nopiano]

Thanks for the super write up! And thanks to dave for the background story.

I considered a Densen earlier this year when changing my integrated amp. Elite Audio offered a very handsome px on my old Krell, but in the end I chickened out. I’ve sometimes imagined that Scandinavian products might sound alike, but when I think more carefully that’s pretty unlikely. It’s a shame Densen, Electrocompaniet and several others aren’t more widely reviewed and distributed here in the U.K.

 

[insider9]

Good Intelligent write up with lots of thought minus the normal over excitement with new kit.

Very impressed with your rack you built.

Thanks Andrew it actually didn't cost much at all to do. And the construction was rather simple also. It did take me about 5 hours though and then had to make adjustments the next day

Thanks for the super write up! And thanks to dave for the background story.

I considered a Densen earlier this year when changing my integrated amp. Elite Audio offered a very handsome px on my old Krell, but in the end I chickened out. I’ve sometimes imagined that Scandinavian products might sound alike, but when I think more carefully that’s pretty unlikely. It’s a shame Densen, Electrocompaniet and several others aren’t more widely reviewed and distributed here in the U.K.

Thank you for kind words. It was indeed Mark from Elite Audio who convinced me to go for the Densen. It took him the whole 5 minutes on the phone. I should say that it's not my first dealings with Elite Audio also and all very positive. I even remember Mark once dissuaded me from a purchase as he didn't believe I'd be completely happy with a product, so no hard sell.

Every Scandinavian make I've owned so far I enjoyed immensly. Granted not that many and for different reasons but each one had it's own unique and enjoyable sound. Whether amplification Primare, Densen or speakers Dali, QLN. Then there are Dynaudio, Electrocompaniet and Abrahamsen that I'd like to own at some point. Lots of good gear that often gets overlooked.

 

[Pedro]

Excellent write up.

When I went to demo the SCM11s they were connected to a Densen integrated (I can't remember the model, but I think it was 2x80W). Very good indeed.

 

[insider9]

Excellent write up.

When I went to demo the SCM11s they were connected to a Densen integrated (I can't remember the model, but I think it was 2x80W). Very good indeed.

Thanks Pedro!

They're not the easiest speakers to drive. That would seem to reinforce my findings that Densen amp specs are incredibly conservative. I've read in couple of places my B-110 (60Wpc) measured 75W and even 81W in user tests.

They're definitely well made. No wonder Densen gives lifetime warranty to original owner.

 

[insider9]

Not too sure where this power-hungry idea came from. Ran my Rosebuds with a 25 wpc valve amp and they worked just fine,

I agree. Rosebuds as nearfield monitors were never designed for a lot of power.

Classics as a 4 drivers arrangement with 10 inch woofers at least look as if they need quite a bit to get them going. Remember the size of magnets on Rosebuds? Now think about how big the magnet is on the 10" woofer so I had my doubts.

Ultimately I think it's down to watt quality and not quantity. 50Wpc Naim struggled, 60Wpc Densen sings. Would a 250Wpc amp do better? Sure, it would control them better, had bigger dynamics shifts but would it do it with so much musicality and other sonic traits? Only if I spent many times what I paid for B-110. Otherwise it would be very difficult.

 

[Al ears]

Not too sure where this power-hungry idea came from. Ran my Rosebuds with a 25 wpc valve amp and they worked just fine.

The Red Rose model two amplifier was rated at 45 wpc and this was often used to power the Rosebuds.

 

[Al ears]

I think you are looking along the right lines in a way. To my mind it is down to current delivery and quite often those bigger speakers are more efficient and easier to drive than the smaller ones, here I don't think the size of the drivers has much to do with it.

Glad you are having fun with the Densen.

 

[insider9]

I think you are looking along the right lines in a way. To my mind it is down to current delivery and quite often those bigger speakers are more efficient and easier to drive than the smaller ones, here I don't think the size of the drivers has much to do with it.

Glad you are having fun with the Densen.

I was thinking along these lines, yes.

Not sure if anyone knows how to work out peak current from specs only knowing continuous power and max power draw of an amp? It would take me a while and two cups of coffee to figure out so if you know the answers please come forward

 

[davedotco]

I think you are looking along the right lines in a way. To my mind it is down to current delivery and quite often those bigger speakers are more efficient and easier to drive than the smaller ones, here I don't think the size of the drivers has much to do with it.

Glad you are having fun with the Densen.

I was thinking along these lines, yes.

Not sure if anyone knows how to work out peak current from specs only knowing continuous power and max power draw of an amp? It would take me a while and two cups of coffee to figure out so if you know the answers please come forward

This is absolutely crucial to amplifiers once you get above a decent standard. One of the big issues is how amplifiers handle speakers with awkward phase characteristics, think of it like this, as the phase varies an amplifier might be required to deliver lots of volts and minimal current at certain frequencies and minimal volts with lots of current at another, even though the wattage remains the same. It is the second situation that causes most amplifiers the most trouble.

Scandinavian brands seem very aware of this, perhaps due to the designs of Matti Otala, Densen is not as well known as Hegel or Electrocompaniet, but I remember being very impressed with the early models back in the 90s.