Product improvements

[drummerman]

As has been mentioned in a thread about Roksan reliability issues the company seems to change components in same line/model numbers as they go along.

I am sure this is sometimes to do with availability/cost of components and, on occasions, to technically improve products, in the field so to speak.

I am guessing they are not unique in doing so but do wonder to what an extent this takes place.

These changes obviously don't warrant a model number change in the companies views but do they change sound? - Is it likely that if you buy a streamer X at launch it will not sound the same as streamer X a year later?

Does that make product reviews less informative? - Indeed, is it clever to buy something at launch or is it wiser to wait a few months until any possible issues have been ironed out with internal product updates/improvements? Manufacturers have, I would assume, dead lines for launches, such as large events/shows or just their own product life span dictates a predecessor has had its time and the new kid on the block has to be made available ... , all of which could make it possible that something has to be rushed to be ready in time?

 

[Al ears]

As has been mentioned in a thread about Roksan reliability issues the company seems to change components in same line/model numbers as they go along.

I am sure this is sometimes to do with availability/cost of components and, on occasions, to technically improve products, in the field so to speak.

I am guessing they are not unique in doing so but do wonder to what an extent this takes place.

These changes obviously don't warrant a model number change in the companies views but do they change sound? - Is it likely that if you buy a streamer X at launch it will not sound the same as streamer X a year later?

Does that make product reviews less informative? - Indeed, is it clever to buy something at launch or is it wiser to wait a few months until any possible issues have been ironed out with internal product updates/improvements? Manufacturers have, I would assume, dead lines for launches, such as large events/shows or just their own product life span dictates a predecessor has had its time and the new kid on the block has to be made available ... , all of which could make it possible that something has to be rushed to be ready in time?

Obviously in these often troubled times companies go bust and components have to be sourced elsewhere, this can lead to subtle changes in performance of a product though, hopefully nothing major.

Reviewers samples have often done the rounds so their comments must be taken very much with a pinch-of-salt. Their piece of equipment might sound somewhat different to a newer model straight out of the box.

Perhaps the only way to be sure you like what you're getting is to audition at a dealers and then actually buy the item you listened to rather than a nice boxed version they have had sitting around in their warehouse for ages.

Although what this might do to the ex-demo market I hate to think.

In my opinion it is never better to by an item as soon as it hits the streets. Leave it a while and see what crops up in the way of bugs (a bit like a new version of Windows, if you catch my drift). This, however, is very difficult to do in these 'I want it yesterday' times.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I am not being funny here but the money people are paying and good money too for this small companies products and some are way overpriced and build quality is sometimes not that good and not very reliable . I looked at the rocksan products and what put me of was the build and sound was not that great but this is just my opinion . That why I always back the big companies like marantz as they have been making hi fi for 60 years I am not saying there stuff will not go wrong I am sure it does but at least your getting a well built tank

 

[Covenanter]

I am not being funny here but the money people are paying and good money too for this small companies products and some are way overpriced and build quality is sometimes not that good and not very reliable . I looked at the rocksan products and what put me of was the build and sound was not that great but this is just my opinion . That why I always back the big companies like marantz as they have been making hi fi for 60 years I am not saying there stuff will not go wrong I am sure it does but at least your getting a well built tank

You have to take fashion into account though! People like to buy away from the mainstream simply because it's different and niche suppliers tend to become fashionable.

I'm with you though. I like rock-solid mainstream products.

Chris

 

[davedotco]

One of the things to consider is the differing approach to manufacturing taken by large organisations like Marantz and smaller 'boutique' brands like Rokson.

When Marantz launch an amplifier, it is planned in a quite specific way. Take the PM6005, essentially a PM6004 with added dac, the design and production costings will be done with input from the marketing guys, ie we need something 'new', dacs are all the rage, let's put one in. If we do that we can sell X thousand units at an average of Y pounds/dollars, whatever.

So they set up to build X thousand units, X thousand transformers are ordered, cases and all the other components and contracts drawn up. The manufacturer then goes ahead and builds X thousand units, not X thousand and one, not X thousand minus one, exactly X thousand. It is then up to the marketing and sales people to sell th product.

When the production run is finished, it is done, no more can and will be built, the components are all used up. If the product is successful a new Mk2 'Improved' model will be designed and produced and the process continues, if the product does not sell, it is 'dumped' at knockdown prices and the manufacturer moves on. Hence the constant stream of new 'improved' models from the big manufacturers, note that the 'improvements' are not always exactly that, anyone who has compared the build quality of the original Marantz M-CR all in ones with the current models will know what I mean.

Smaller companies, like Roksan for example, simply can not work like that, they design an amplifier and call it the Kandy, they buy parts for maybe 500 or 1000 pieces which they build.

The amplifier sells well so they decide to build 1000 more, however the transformers are now more expensive, other components are not available so they buy the nearest equivalent. The differences in the finished product are not that obvious so it remains the Kandy.

The model continues to sell well so another 1000 units are built, this time the cost increases and different components are impossible to ignore so the price has to go up and it becomes the Kandy Mk2. Next time around it becomes the Mk2 'Special Edition' etc, etc.

At no point has there been a designed improvement, some of the new components might be better, leading to a better amplifier but then they might not. The better companies will try to ensure that any changes that have to be made will not lower the quality/performance of the product, others seem less concerned about such matters.

 

[MajorFubar]

It's not uncommon for products to be changed and tweaked even on eg Japanese mainsteam brands, sometimes to cure known faults on early models, sometimes for minor improvements, sometimes because a particular component is NLA and they fit whatever comes out the parts-bin that's at least the right spec. I was watching an amp-repair video on YouTube recently, it was a Kenwood, no two output transistors were exactly the same part# and the filter-caps were different brands as well, even marginally different capacitance. There was no sign the amp had ever been opened before, so it was almost certainly built this way from new.

 

[davedotco]

It's not uncommon for products to be changed and tweaked even on eg Japanese mainsteam brands, sometimes to cure known faults on early models, sometimes for minor improvements, sometimes because the a particular component is NLA. I was watching an amp-repair video on YouTube recently, it was a Kenwood, no two output transistors were exactly the same part# and the filter-caps were different brands as well, even marginally different capacitance. There was no sign the amp had ever been opened before, so it was almost certainly built this way from new.

Actually Major I think that is quite unlikely, as I described above, mainstream product is simply not made that way. I could of course be wrong, but I would be very surprised.

The only suggestion I have is that it was a carefully refurbished model done without access to the 'original' parts.

 

[Covenanter]

I think Dave's description is just about right, especially for Japanese companies. They work in a very structured way and very efficiently.

It's the classic story about British manufacturing - there are often excellent, innovative small businesses with great products but scaling them up into large scale organisations is something that we have repeatedly failed to do. I could write a book about it!

Chris

 

[Al ears]

I think davedotco's comments are excellent and these are precisely the difference between Mr. Big and Mr. Little.

As with all forums you only tend to hear from those people that have had problems with their kit and not those thousands who are very happy with theirs, that's life.

 

[MajorFubar]

Actually Major I think that is quite unlikely, as I described above, mainstream product is simply not made that way. I could of course be wrong, but I would be very surprised.

Yep it was very surprising and very unusual, I haven't come across it before, and I don't think it's typical, but then again my job isn't repairing HiFi and AV kit so I haven't been as nearly exposed to the hundreds of different units as a repairer (wish I'd kept the URL). Even so, it's not at all ususual to read the notes to a schematic diagram and find that component X was changed for component Y from serial such-n-such. Don't forget the catchall at the end of many instruction manuals which states something along the lines of "In the interests of a commitment to a policy of continuous development and improvement, the manufacturer reserves the right to change the specification of the product or its performance, or the contents of the guide, without notice."

 

[davedotco]

I must admit my description of the manufacturing process for mainstream product is very generalised, but for most mainstream, volume electronic product that really is the way it is.

There is simply no mileage to be had in swapping components, the big boys sign contracts for what they need and it gets built. In some cases, metalwork for example, components are unique to that product, in others the discounts given for large programmed orders is what makes the item profitable.

You can have the most successful amplifier on the planet but production is fixed, the 'policy of continuous improvement' is for the smaller manufacturers who have to buy components on the open market. Thats just the way it is.

 

[Vladimir]

One of the things to consider is the differing approach to manufacturing taken by large organisations like Marantz and smaller 'boutique' brands like Rokson.

When Marantz launch an amplifier, it is planned in a quite specific way. Take the PM6005, essentially a PM6004 with added dac, the design and production costings will be done with input from the marketing guys, ie we need something 'new', dacs are all the rage, let's put one in. If we do that we can sell X thousand units at an average of Y pounds/dollars, whatever.

So they set up to build X thousand units, X thousand transformers are ordered, cases and all the other components and contracts drawn up. The manufacturer then goes ahead and builds X thousand units, not X thousand and one, not X thousand minus one, exactly X thousand. It is then up to the marketing and sales people to sell th product.

When the production run is finished, it is done, no more can and will be built, the components are all used up. If the product is successful a new Mk2 'Improved' model will be designed and produced and the process continues, if the product does not sell, it is 'dumped' at knockdown prices and the manufacturer moves on. Hence the constant stream of new 'improved' models from the big manufacturers, note that the 'improvements' are not always exactly that, anyone who has compared the build quality of the original Marantz M-CR all in ones with the current models will know what I mean.

Smaller companies, like Roksan for example, simply can not work like that, they design an amplifier and call it the Kandy, they buy parts for maybe 500 or 1000 pieces which they build.

The amplifier sells well so they decide to build 1000 more, however the transformers are now more expensive, other components are not available so they buy the nearest equivalent. The differences in the finished product are not that obvious so it remains the Kandy.

The model continues to sell well so another 1000 units are built, this time the cost increases and different components are impossible to ignore so the price has to go up and it becomes the Kandy Mk2. Next time around it becomes the Mk2 'Special Edition' etc, etc.

At no point has there been a designed improvement, some of the new components might be better, leading to a better amplifier but then they might not. The better companies will try to ensure that any changes that have to be made will not lower the quality/performance of the product, others seem less concerned about such matters.

Brilliantly put.

 

[tonky]

tantalum capacitors (yellow rectangular ones)

tonky by naim tonky by nature

 

[Vladimir]

tantalum capacitors (yellow rectangular ones)

tonky by naim tonky by nature

Tantalum mining in Africa has significant human and environmental consequences. Sooner we stop using them, the better.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPfdERaAdNc

They still work this way so I'm told, but the electronics are much improved.

Oh dear my link didn't work. Bloody tablets are useless at this stuff. Anyway it's a short documentary on the daily goings on in naims Salisbury facility. from 1989.lol.interesting viewing.