Possible weakest link in my system?

[chris58]

Hi everyone,

My current system includes:

Onkyo A-9010 UK edition amplifier
Monitor Audio Bronze 2 speakers
Denon DCD-600NE CD player
Rega Planar 1 turntable (great turntable by the way)

I would like to know what could be the weakest link in my system if possible. I know that system matching is important as well... My system often fails to engage: the sound is generally satisfying, and quite detailed, but I would like it to be much more dynamic . I was wondering if the amp is the culprit? I used to own a Cambridge Audio amplifier a while ago, although with different speakers (Acoustic Energy Neo), and the music was much more dynamic, when listening to reggae for example. On the plus side, my current system is very forgiving when listening to poorly recorded music.

Thank you!

 

[Al ears]

Welcome to the forum.
You say you need it to be more dynamic. Is this lack of dynamism noticeable with both CD and LP?
The usual items to change would be the source or the speakers.
I know the CDP is good and the Rega could do with a cartridge upgrade, but I have no idea about your amp / speaker combo.

 

[nopiano]

Welcome from me too!

Hard to diagnose what is essentially a personal preference rather than an actual fault. I suspect the MA speakers are a rather richer, warmer sound that your previous ones, and the amp might be smoother too. Sometimes, especially with lively music, a slightly edgier sound can flatter to deceive, but now you notice the edges have been rounded off!

Have you tried changing the position of your speakers? This can make a big difference. For example, keeping them away from corners, and raised to ear level.

 

[chris58]

Thank you for your answers, really appreciated. This is exactly what you said: the edges have been rounded off, the sound is almost too soft/smooth. I wonder if, at this price range, it is basically a trade-off. My previous system was more engaging but it could generate fatigue after some time. This is now literally the opposite: depending on the record, I can nearly get distracted and forget about the music. This is quite obvious when listening to stuff like Talking Heads: More Songs About Buildings and Food or Steely Dan Countdown to Ectasy. These are 2 very lively albums, they do sound quite good but lack oomph. On the other side, if I play The Stooges: Raw Power, the sound, which is very 'dirty' on purpose, is much 'cleaner' (bearable?) on this system. I did change the positioning of the speakers and isolated them: it does improve a little the stereo image, which is fine anyway, but doesn't change the 'nature' of the sound. As an amp upgrade (I plan to move the Onkyo to a different room), in your experience, what would you suggest I should try? Dynamic but not too aggressive of course. My budget is between £500 and £700.

 

[Al ears]

Thank you for your answers, really appreciated. This is exactly what you said: the edges have been rounded off, the sound is almost too soft/smooth. I wonder if, at this price range, it is basically a trade-off. My previous system was more engaging but it could generate fatigue after some time. This is now literally the opposite: depending on the record, I can nearly get distracted and forget about the music. This is quite obvious when listening to stuff like Talking Heads: More Songs About Buildings and Food or Steely Dan Countdown to Ectasy. These are 2 very lively albums, they do sound quite good but lack oomph. On the other side, if I play The Stooges: Raw Power, the sound, which is very 'dirty' on purpose, is much 'cleaner' (bearable?) on this system. I did change the positioning of the speakers and isolated them: it does improve a little the stereo image, which is fine anyway, but doesn't change the 'nature' of the sound. As an amp upgrade (I plan to move the Onkyo to a different room), in your experience, what would you suggest I should try? Dynamic but not too aggressive of course. My budget is between £500 and £700.

Presumably any new amplifier suggested will need an inbuilt phono preamp?
If so I might recommend the Denon PMA-800ne (should compliment your CDP) or Marantz PM6007, both of which are below £500, possibly a Rega Elex R (second-hand), but possibly the best choice with your speakers would be the Rotel A12 (£549). Try to audition one if you can.
What, in my opinion, would really nail it if you could stretch the budget a bit is a used Rotel RA1572 (currently there is a dealer refurbished one on a well known auction site but it's £849 which may be negotiable...)

 

[TrevC]

Different speakers will be the answer to this one. Changing the amp isn't going to help. Rather than waste money on pointless amplifier swapping I would suggest splashing the cash on a lovely pair of Bowers 706 S2. They are incredible.

 

[Al ears]

Thanks for this information!

?

 

[Al ears]

Different speakers will be the answer to this one. Changing the amp isn't going to help. Rather than waste money on pointless amplifier swapping I would suggest splashing the cash on a lovely pair of Bowers 706 S2. They are incredible.

Good suggestion if they happen to work in his room. Personally I would not attempt to run the £1150 706's with a 40wpc £200 amp. but that's just me.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

They are also comfortably out of budget, as stated a few posts before. But yes, trying different speakers with the amp seems a sensible first step.

 

[TrevC]

Good suggestion if they happen to work in his room. Personally I would not attempt to run the £1150 706's with a 40wpc £200 amp. but that's just me.

The recommended amplifier power is 30-120 watts for these speakers so why you wouldn't even try a 40 watt per channel amplifier with them is something of a mystery to me. Can you explain? Price mismatches are irrelevant of course.

 

[manicm]

IMHO the Monitor Audio Bronze 2s are the weakest link in your system. I would actually try the new Bronze 100, or Dali Spektor 2, or really a B&W 607/606 S2.

 

[Al ears]

The recommended amplifier power is 30-120 watts for these speakers so why you wouldn't even try a 40 watt per channel amplifier with them is something of a mystery to me. Can you explain? Price mismatches are irrelevant of course.

As I stated it is just me, however with a lowish nominal impedance of 3.7ohm I would run these with something that outputs watts per channel towards the upper range of the stated amplifier power, unless perhaps it was a 40 wpc valve amp with excellent current delivery.
Price mismatches may be irrelevant to you but not to me.
I wouldn't run a £200 turntable with a system that includes amp and speakers costing thousands for instance.

 

[TrevC]

As I stated it is just me, however with a lowish nominal impedance of 3.7ohm I would run these with something that outputs watts per channel towards the upper range of the stated amplifier power, unless perhaps it was a 40 wpc valve amp with excellent current delivery.
Price mismatches may be irrelevant to you but not to me.
I wouldn't run a £200 turntable with a system that includes amp and speakers costing thousands for instance.

As the nominal impedance of the speakers is actually 8 ohms with a low of 3.7 and the amplifier will drive 4 ohm speakers anyway there won't be a problem. Forget price, it's only performance that counts, and forget valve amplifiers, they are mediocre compared to solid state. I note that the Onkyo was a WTF best buy, if only What Hifi actually measured amplifiers we would have a better idea of what suits what.

 

[Al ears]

As the nominal impedance of the speakers is actually 8 ohms with a low of 3.7 and the amplifier will drive 4 ohm speakers anyway there won't be a problem. Forget price, it's only performance that counts, and forget valve amplifiers, they are mediocre compared to solid state.

My mistake I should have said minimum impedance, however, I stand by what I said.
Personally I think you are wrong but entitled to your opinion.

 

[TrevC]

My mistake I should have said minimum impedance, however, I stand by what I said.
Personally I think you are wrong but entitled to your opinion.

I'm not expressing an opinion, apart from how the speakers sound. The specs speak for themselves. You can't say they won't work well together unless you've tried them.
Looking at the 705 as tested by stereophile I see the impedance stays above 4 ohms, so no problem as they are the same except for the outboard tweeter.
Think of the 706 as a far more refined 606 and you have it about right.

 

[Al ears]

I'm not expressing an opinion, apart from how the speakers sound. The specs speak for themselves. You can't say they won't work well together unless you've tried them.
Looking at the 705 spec I see the impedance stays above 4 ohms, so no problem as they are the same except for the outboard tweeter.
Think of the 706 as a far more refined 606 and you have it about right.

706 specs state they do not stay above 4 ohms, and I didn't say they won't work.

 

[TrevC]

706 specs state they do not stay above 4 ohms, and I didn't say they won't work.

Sorry, I meant to write as tested by Stereophile. I've corrected it.

 

[shadders]

Hi,
i briefly examined the Stereophile review of the 705 (?), and the dips are narrow in bandwidth. They are in the low frequency range where the energy is greatest in a typical music signal, but i would expect that the narrow bandwidth of the lowest frequency impedance dip will not cause too many issues for the amplifier.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[Edbostan]

Hi everyone,

My current system includes:

Onkyo A-9010 UK edition amplifier
Monitor Audio Bronze 2 speakers
Denon DCD-600NE CD player
Rega Planar 1 turntable (great turntable by the way)

I would like to know what could be the weakest link in my system if possible. I know that system matching is important as well... My system often fails to engage: the sound is generally satisfying, and quite detailed, but I would like it to be much more dynamic . I was wondering if the amp is the culprit? I used to own a Cambridge Audio amplifier a while ago, although with different speakers (Acoustic Energy Neo), and the music was much more dynamic, when listening to reggae for example. On the plus side, my current system is very forgiving when listening to poorly recorded music.

Thank you!

I have the same amp with Kef speakers and it is a smooth amp as they say but rather inoffensive in not emphasising one frequency over another. Yes I find the sound rather even and as you say not dynamic. On the other hand I have an original Cyrus One and often compare the two. In comparison I find the Cyrus more revealing when compared with the Onkyo but the Onyko has more body and weight with the difference not enough for me to change the Onkyo with the Cyrus. The sound signature is different between the two but not light and day. I have put the Cyrus back in the loft and use the Onkyo daily so that shows my preference.

 

[TrevC]

In terms of distortion the Onkyo amplifier is vastly superior to any loudspeaker, so there is no mismatch if the 706 is used. I use mine with an old budget Sony amp that cost around £120, but that has more power and sounds as good as the Musical Fidelity A1 I previously used.

 

[TrevC]

Hi,
i briefly examined the Stereophile review of the 705 (?), and the dips are narrow in bandwidth. They are in the low frequency range where the energy is greatest in a typical music signal, but i would expect that the narrow bandwidth of the lowest frequency impedance dip will not cause too many issues for the amplifier.

Regards,
Shadders.

For a laugh I read the WTF review of the 705. I could glean no useful information about the speaker from it. Just a load of waffle about gears!

 

[rainsoothe]

@OP in order to avoid confusion, I'd go to a dealer and listen to some stuff. When I read what you found lacking in your system, I immediately went to the amplifier - most amplifiers that do "the hi-fi" thing tend to do just that: show off detail, but keep stuff too even. I'm not saying that the speakers are flawless either, but it might just be a mismatch. Personally, I'd look at a Rega or Naim amp and match speakers to that.

 

[TrevC]

most amplifiers that do "the hi-fi" thing tend to do just that: show off detail, but keep stuff too even.

No idea what on earth you mean, but the Onkyo amplifier is known to be a good one, with good reviews.

 

[gasolin]

IMHO the Monitor Audio Bronze 2s are the weakest link in your system. I would actually try the new Bronze 100, or Dali Spektor 2, or really a B&W 607/606 S2.

Not enough difference although the spektor 1 i had has much softer,more pleasant to listen to highs than B&W 606/607

Might look for a pair of Q Acoustics concept 20, Dynaudio emit M10 or M20 or a pair of used first gen Kef LS50

 

[manicm]

Not enough difference although the spektor 1 i had has much softer,more pleasant to listen to highs than B&W 606/607

Might look for a pair of Q Acoustics concept 20, Dynaudio emit M10 or M20 or a pair of used first gen Kef LS50

With his amp I’d still say look at the 606/7. The speakers you mention are fine but are a bit hard to drive.