Pioneer MCACC gurus - help required please...

[Leeps]

I know some of you out there have already delved deep into the MCACC / manual speaker set up of Pioneer AVR's (mine's the VSX-2021) so if you're one of those clever folks, I'd very much appreciate your help so I don't attempt reinventing the wheel.

HERE'S WHAT I'M TRING TO ACHIEVE:

Ever since the iOS 8 update, my AVR control app has failed to work. (Bad show Pioneer for failing to update the app - apalling commitment to customers who've given you their wads of money and a real shame as in every other respect, it's an amazing bit of kit).

One of the things I especially liked to do when playing 2.0 channel stereo, was to use Pioneer's Extended Stereo setting to play the signal through all speakers. What I used to do using the app, was to alter the fader about half way in favour of the front speakers. I used that screen with the circle and the dot in the middle and you could move the dot up, down left or right to affect the balance or fader of speakers. I used to set it centrally left to right (as I didn't want to alter the balance), but about half way towards the top of the circle to reduce the relative volume of the rear speakers.

The result just made music sound right to my ears from the listening position. You had the larger opened up soundstage by bringing the rear speakers into play, but they didn't overwhelm the mix to the point where you thought people were actually singing behind you (which would sound inherantly wrong).

So now my iOS control app is kaput, I'm trying to do this manually using different MCACC presets. I only want to use the affect described above for CD and Home Media Group sources, not TV or Bluray.

HERE'S MY PROBLEM SO FAR:

I can see from the manual how to alter the volume levels of each channel, and how to copy & paste memory presets from one to another, but what I can't figure out, is when you're altering the channel levels in the Manual SP setup menu, how do you know which of the 6 memory presets you're changing?

Do your changes only affect the memory preset and input that you happened to be using at the time? So for example, if the basic Auto MCACC is Memory preset 1 and I wanted to set up a new preset no.2 for the purposes described above, would I first copy Memory 1 to Memory 2 (to use as a baseline), THEN select the input I wanted to change, THEN select the MCACC Memory preset I wanted to change, THEN actually make the channel level adjustments?

Obviously I don't want to alter or override levels that currently work very well for the other inputs. I hope my descriptions made sense! Do you have any suggestions as to how I could accomplish my aims above? Any help would be gratefully received! Many thanks in advance.

 

[Esra]

I am not a guru but will try to help.

It works as you described.If Preset 1 is fine for other applications,first copy Preset 1 to Preset 2 for a baseline you can change.Then switch to Preset 2 after copying and do your adjustments to your likes.It will stay saved.Input selection can be ignored for speakers level/setup adjustments in MCAA.You can setup a 7.1 speaker setup in Preset 1 and a Multizone 2ch setup in Preset 2 if you wish with different speaker levels.It would auto downmix multichanel to 2 ch in Preset 2 then with your level adjustments in Preset 2.

 

[Leeps]

Many thanks for your help Esra, that's much appreciated. I'll give it a bash and report my findings.

 

[Leeps]

Fantastic. It seems I've managed the desired effect with the following settings:

FRONT LEFT: 0

CENTRE: -4.5 this provides a nicely wide soundstage without drawing too much attention to itself.

FRONT RIGHT: -3

REAR RIGHT: -10 this level's just about right to provide the wide soundstage ambience without making the rear's use too obvious.

REAR LEFT: -12 this speaker's the closest to the listening position so needs taming a quite a bit.

SUBWOOFER: -12. My sub's not in the corner but really easily takes over, so it needs bringing down substantially. At least I've got a manual control of the volume of the sub anyway.

Right, so I've made these changes under MCACC preset Memory 6. Memories 1 to 5 are all symmetrical from my original Auto MCACC set-up, which is just fine for all multichannel uses and TV where I just use straight stereo.

So the only remaining snag seems to be that each MCACC preset doesn't save itself to the input being used. So if I want to use this front-weighted extended stereo setting, I've got to manually select the MCACC preset each time, which is do-able, but more of a faff than I'd have liked.

I've been through all the options on the menu, but I can't see a way of assigning an MCACC preset to a particular input. I was hoping that it would work like the sound settings do - if you select 'pure direct' for a certain input, the next time you use that input, 'pure direct' is automatically there. At least I can get the sound I set out to achieve.

 

[Sliced Bread]

So the only remaining snag seems to be that each MCACC preset doesn't save itself to the input being used. So if I want to use this front-weighted extended stereo setting, I've got to manually select the MCACC preset each time, which is do-able, but more of a faff than I'd have liked.

I find this too with my LX87.

If there is a way to achieve this I would personally send the poster a virtual hug...but alas, I do not think it is possible.

 

[Leeps]

Oh, ok.

My only positive contribution then to simplify things is this: seeing I only want a total of 2 different MCACC settings, I'll copy and paste the settings so that setting 1 is on presets 1, 3 & 5 and setting 2 is on presets 2, 4 & 6.

That way, when I change settings I've only got to press the MCACC button once on the remote instead of 6 times. The main thing is the sound though, so at least I've got the result I was looking for, and it's just perfect.

Thanks for your contributions.

PS, What did you upgrade from to get the LX87? Without being too harsh, what kind of step up could I expect from my midrange AVR?

 

[Sliced Bread]

Oh, ok.

My only positive contribution then to simplify things is this: seeing I only want a total of 2 different MCACC settings, I'll copy and paste the settings so that setting 1 is on presets 1, 3 & 5 and setting 2 is on presets 2, 4 & 6.

That way, when I change settings I've only got to press the MCACC button once on the remote instead of 6 times. The main thing is the sound though, so at least I've got the result I was looking for, and it's just perfect.

Thanks for your contributions.

PS, What did you upgrade from to get the LX87? Without being too harsh, what kind of step up could I expect from my midrange AVR?

I changed from an Onkyo 905 so it sounded quite different to me, however I have not heard the mid range Pioneer amps.

There are quite a few on bear who have though so maybe they can give their opinions.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Glad you have solved you probelms to some degree. But really what your achiveing is not the same as the app use to do. I use to like to enhance the dialog but can no longer do that but i think the newer app works with old amps (backwards compatible) but then i have the newer 2022 so may be a different story.

The biggist step up in the newer amps (lx58 and above) is the abillity to eq the subwoofer and one of the things i really miss is the THX select 2 plus for lower volume listening. It really did help and wasnt as hevey handed as the Dynamic EQ in my old onk 807. Compared to the onkyo though i found my pioneer to be a bit of a side ways step. Dont get me wrong it sounds nice but you have to give some welly to hear it as its best and is no were near as powerful as the onkyo.

So ill be steping up to the higher end amps at some point. I was thinking of treating my self to the LX78 ill let you know my thoughts once i have compared the 2 as i have a arranged an in home test.

 

[Leeps]

Glad you have solved you probelms to some degree. But really what your achiveing is not the same as the app use to do. I use to like to enhance the dialog but can no longer do that but i think the newer app works with old amps (backwards compatible) but then i have the newer 2022 so may be a different story.

The biggist step up in the newer amps (lx58 and above) is the abillity to eq the subwoofer and one of the things i really miss is the THX select 2 plus for lower volume listening. It really did help and wasnt as hevey handed as the Dynamic EQ in my old onk 807. Compared to the onkyo though i found my pioneer to be a bit of a side ways step. Dont get me wrong it sounds nice but you have to give some welly to hear it as its best and is no were near as powerful as the onkyo.

So ill be steping up to the higher end amps at some point. I was thinking of treating my self to the LX78 ill let you know my thoughts once i have compared the 2 as i have a arranged an in home test.

hmmm, I know what you mean about the dialogue. The app was so much better at doung this. Although there's nothing stopping us from having a third MCACC preset that boosts the centre channel a tad. I might get around to that.

I'm hoping another fix will be in the form of an iPhone 4 I've been given that can't be upgraded beyond iOS7, so should still work. I know I keep going on about it, but it truly is rubbish that Pioneer don't support their apps beyond a couple of years. Although I've been very impressed with the receiver's ultimate ability, the app has been a real let-down and seriously undermines any brand loyalty that the receiver would otherwise have engendered.

Thanks for your post though.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

I think alot of it as to do with onkyo buying pioneer out (with the amp and visual side of things) so everything is all over the place for them while they merge. This might well be the last generation of really good pioneer amps we see for a while. I hope im proved wrong though

And your completely right about having a third preset for the dialogue. I do find though that turning the eq off opens the amp up abit but then you loose a some base quality i think so there is a compromise to be had somewhere. Give it ago watch a movie in pure direct you'd be suprised how much it opens ups.

 

[Leeps]

I have tried Pure Direct with DTS Master movies and at times I've found it's softened the sound and made it less dynamic (with my speakers anyway).

I've tried pretty much every permutation going and for most uses, I've found "Optimum" to be the best, which makes the quiet bits louder. I tend not to have the volume at stratospheric levels, so this setting works for me. It seems to keep the dynamic punchy and fairly forward sound that I like even at lower to mid volumes.

I was playing the Bluray at the weekend about the Hubble telescope. It's a DTS Master soundtrack. There's a section some way into the film which shows the launch of a space shuttle and the sound was absolutely amazing. All speakers (including sub) are brought into play and you can really get the sense of what it would be like to be there. It's worth buying the disc just for that alone!

Similary I was playing a Radiohead King of Limbs Bluray and actually found the "Rock" setting much better than the Pure Direct. It seemed to improve timing and dynamism again.

So it could just be that the combination of receiver / speakers and my room have a fairly soft sound and it needs the other settings to liven it up a bit. At least you have access to these varieties of settings with receivers (as opposed to stereo amps, which I appreciate hold their own advantages).

 

[Leeps]

PS - I do tend to use Pure Direct for stereo TV sources though.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Fare enough..... The pionners are very powerful but i havn't really explored the sound settings. will have to give them play

 

[Glacialpath]

Hi guys. Happy new year and ll that.

I thought I had replyed to this post.....I guess not.

I have the Pioneer LX73. At first I didn't trust the MCACC set up so I used to use my sound pressure meter to set each channel.

My understanding is one MCACC setting should fit all inputs. Meaning it's taking into acount your speakers and the room it's in. So whether it's 2 channel, 6 or 8 the sound you hear should be optimised regardless. I have to say I'm nt sure why we have the option to store 6 or so lots of setting.

To the OP. Hi Leeps.

As you prefer to listen at a more subdude level, as you say the Optimum setting works for you. Alowing you to hear the detail you want to hear.

I have, about a year ago done a set up using the Mic for my amp. I'm glad I did a I can listen louder than before and get more dynamics and space in the audio than I did before. Even music sounds more roomy and natural.

When I used to turn films/music up when I had only set channel levals, things sounded harsh, my ears wouldn't like it for long so I would have to turn it down again but now each channel has been EQ'd by the amp I can turn up louder and hear more detail than ever before and it doesn't hurt my ears.

My room is 4x4m but with some movie parts it sounds bigger. I can hear sounds behind the speaker as well as at the speakers face and into the room.

If you can get your speaker as symetrical as possible, even if the room is a funny shape that should make things easier for the amp when it does it's calculations. Otherwise the amp will still do a good job.

I would try and live with how things sound when a MCACC has been performed for a month or 2. listen to films and music you know and love and see if you hear a more roomyness, more space between each instrument. Even if say the drums are recorded in a booth, they may add room reverb to simulate a bigger room but would have had more control over the drum sound in the booth.

With movies. Take note of how things sound to you in the real world, especially where you see the kind of thing on screen that you see everyday, like cars, diggers, lorries, trains, people and so on. Try and listen to the real world around you, inside or out as if you were watching a movie. Think of where you are situated to those sounds and how easily you hear tham before you honed in on them. Then when you watch a movie with the MCACC settings and your amp set to Direct. Does it sound/feel the same as real life.

We are all so used to hearing compressed and compremised audio or it being 10 times louder in a large cinema room where it can be louder without being over powering. Now we can listen to uncompressed audio and it doesn't sound right. It is purely because we aren't used to it outside a real world situation where we pay sound no mind in respect to how intently we try to listen and want to hear evrything when watching a movie.

I'd be interested to hear what you guys think if you decide to try my suggestions. I hope it helps. Also I'm sure I haven't told you anything new. Maybe just reminded you.

GP

 

[Leeps]

My understanding is one MCACC setting should fit all inputs. Meaning it's taking into acount your speakers and the room it's in. So whether it's 2 channel, 6 or 8 the sound you hear should be optimised regardless. I have to say I'm nt sure why we have the option to store 6 or so lots of setting.

GP

I need a secondary setting for 2-channel music playing through all the speakers precisely because I DON'T want the speakers' output to be symmetrical in his instance. If you went to a live gig, most of the sound would come from the direction of the stage, but you'd get reverb coming from behind you.

The setting that works for multi-channel inputs (mainly movies) has a mix that already knows this, so uses the rear channels in a judicious and natural way. So a symmetrical MCACC is fine for multi-channel sources. But when I'm asking my receiver to achieve a similar result with the 2.0 channel audio, I don't want the rear channels to be as loud as the front, otherwise it would sound more like headphones than a live gig with the associated reverb. You'd be looking behind you to see if the band is there, which would be unnatural. So this is why my music setting reduces the volume of the rear speakers.

After owning the receiver for a couple of years now, I've grown to really enjoy this setting for music. It makes the soundstage really open up and make you feel much more like you're at a live event. 2.0 channel in Pure Direct mode seems very compressed in comparison, although I appreciate this has much to do with my main left & right speakers, the MA Radius R270HD floorstanders. They have some beautiful facets to their sound (particularly the midrange / vocals), but they don't create a large soundstage on their own.

With the two MCACC settings available, I'm happy with what I've achieved. It would just have been less hassle if I'd been able to assign the MCACC setting I wanted to a particular input, as all the other sound settings (pure direct / optimum / rock etc etc) CAN be assigned in this way as the receiver simply remembers the setting you'd previously used for each input.

 

[Glacialpath]

Fair enough.

You must have a concert hall mode or live music mode? On your remote under the central navigation buttons, the Home and Return buttonsyou should have "Auto/ALC/Direct", "Stereo", "Standard" and "ADV Surr"?

Have you tried just pressing the Stereo button? I usually have mine on Direct for movies as I want the purest I can get from the disc. I've just tried playing some spotify and I selected the Stereo button. Suddenly it sounds like I'm listening to a seperate Hi-Fi and not through my AVR.

I had a play through the "Standard" button and tried PLIIx and Neo: 6 Music. I didn't have the band behind me but it did sound a little like I was in a live indoor concert (I played Whitesnake Live and Donnintion 1990) and my set up is symetrical.

No disrespect but it might be to do with where you position the MCACC Mic. Where do you set it up exactly?

 

[Leeps]

Thanks for the suggestions GP, but the settings I use now are exactly what I want.

I've never found Dolby Prologic very good. It feels a very processed sound. The setting I use for stereo music is "Extended Stereo", which I would imagine works in a similar way to most car hifis that have 4 speakers or more.

The original MCACC setting was with the mic in the listening position. So my first MCACC setting based on this produces a symmetrical volume from all speakers when sat in the listening position. My second MCACC setting uses all the timing from the first setting, but just weights the volume toward the front: rather like you can alter the fader in your car stereo toward the front.

There's something about the Extended Stereo setting that manages to retain the hifi sound of Stereo without it sounding processed. I like it for my system even though my front left & right speakers are 3-way floorstanders (albeit petite ones), but I'd thoroughly recommend Extended Stereo for people using small satellite speakers where the front left/right channels wouldn't be gutsy enough on their own.

Thanks to all for your posts & suggestions anyway.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

The extended stearo works great for me. Sounds pretty good with my Fazon sats to be honest i also find it's a great way to make sure the distatnts are set right. As you will get an echo effect if there wrong.

And your right it works just like a car .

 

[Glacialpath]

Hi Leeps. Glad you are happy with your settings.

I partly added my comments for anyone else how might read this thread as I think sometimes we forget how the real world sounds and get so used to how our kit sounds we don't know what is real anymore.

I myself only really came to this notion in the last couple of years.

But we all have different tastes and I like to remind people there are other ways of thinking about how things sound and why.