Open question

Covenanter

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I didn't realise there was a separate "Headphones" forum so posted this on the main hifi forum:

This is a very open question so I’d appreciate as many comments as possible.
I’ve got my new hifi – Marantz CD6004, PM6004, KEP Q500s – and I love it and am listening to much more music now. Trouble is I’m a bit of a night owl and I live in an apartment block and volume levels have to be restrained in the small hours. So I’m thinking of headphones but am not sure where to start. I’ve read the reviews but there is nothing like the opinions of people who use the things!
Some factors:
• I listen to mainly classical music of all types but medieval polyphony is a favourite
• I want to get as close to the clean, analytical sound of the KEFs as possible
• I can’t do “in-ear” so it has to be “on-ear”
• Can’t be too heavy
• I’m attracted to “wireless” for practical reasons but how good are they?
• Headphone socket or pre-amp?
• Whilst I’m not rich beyond the dreams of avarice I will pay to get the sound I want
Many thanks in anticipation of your advice and help.
Chris
 

dalethorn

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The Shure 1840 is a good bet because it's very light and doesn't bother your ears, and it's very accurate and detailed which is best for all types of music. Headphone outputs on receivers, amplifiers, CD players etc. do vary in quality, and more often than not a good headphone amp will improve the sound. There are many of those, so have a look first, and if there are other suggestions on the headphones I'll see how those compare to the 1840. I do think your willingness to spend the necessary money should allow you to avoid headphones with colorations and comfort problems.
 

Covenanter

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Thank you for that. They read very well but there doesn't appear to be a stockist in the Midlands where I can hear them!

On the other forum I was recommended the Stax Electrostatics as well. Anybody have any comments?

Chris
 

dalethorn

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The Stax SR009 has everything the Shure 1840 has but much better. But in addition to 10 times the price, the places you can run it are very restricted. The other Stax's would not give you that improved sound, but would give you the restrictions.
 

idc

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I would recommend the AKG K701 or 2 which can be had for about £200 shopping around. The difference is colour and the K702s cable can be detached.

They are big comfy and around ear. They do clarity and detail in spades. For headphones they have a good sound stage. They are not bad to drive, so I would use your amps headphone output.
 

relocated

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I think you really need to post your budget to give people a chance to help you. Then you shouldn't get recommended prices of the multiples of Shure -v- Stax.
 

Covenanter

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Ok, well I'm very pragmatic about price. I had in my mind that I would have to pay £200+ but I know I would find it hard to justify to myself spending more than £700. I need to be able to hear a big difference to justify a big price!

Chris
 

dalethorn

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What you just said is key. The bad news is, while you can hear the big difference at home when it's very quiet (like at 2AM), you just won't hear that in the showroom/demo room. Even if the demo room seems very quiet, the ambient noise level will likely be 10 to 20 db above a very quiet home, and will mask the details that are revealed with the £700 headphone.
 

Covenanter

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TY again. My apartment isn't quiet as I live right in the city centre and even at 2am there will the occasional car going by and even buses. Sounds like top range headphones might be wasted.

Chris
 

quadpatch

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Dale's got a very good point, I totally see where he's coming from, but I wouldn't say they're a waste of money. Diminished possibly yes, but not all the time and not completely.
 

dalethorn

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quadpatch said:
Dale's got a very good point, I totally see where he's coming from, but I wouldn't say they're a waste of money. Diminished possibly yes, but not all the time and not completely.

I certainly agree. If you're indoors with windows closed, the occasional bus or other vehicle won't be a big factor. If the windows are open and there is quite a lot of ambient noise that could affect listening. But the occasional noises, the very different types of noise bursts - they don't mask the fine details quite so much as the steady drone of daytime noise from the much larger activity of everything that's going on. The things I can see being a problem at nighttime are air conditioner noise or other appliance noise inside the building. That type of noise has a constant level of the sort of thing that masks details.

But back to the demo room - if you do get a chance at a demo in a quiet room, prepare in advance for a good seat where you can really relax and take 30 minutes at least to listen. And maybe ask in advance about the ancillary gear being used in the demo room, and whether you might want to take your own amp etc., if that's necessary and they allow it.
 
A

Anonymous

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Yeah definiftley go with the Stax, they are better in my opinion
 

Covenanter

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The big problem seems to be finding an opportunity to audition the various bits of kit. I'm working up a short-list but I can't find anybody who stocks all of them. I can borrow the Stax and may well do that but as for the rest I can't see any easy way to listen to them in parallel!

Chris
 

dalethorn

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Covenanter said:
The big problem seems to be finding an opportunity to audition the various bits of kit. I'm working up a short-list but I can't find anybody who stocks all of them. I can borrow the Stax and may well do that but as for the rest I can't see any easy way to listen to them in parallel! Chris

I don't mean to discourage you, but I've found when comaring headphones that the last thing I was accustomed to became my mental benchmark so to speak, and putting a better headphone on my head, it might not actually sound better at that moment. So here is my first suggestion: Sit down with a Stax SR009 and listen to one type of music with a consistent sound and mix, for perhaps 20 minutes, then put any other headphone on playing the same mix and prepare to throw up. Really. Or just start with a Sennheiser HD800 for the same 20 minutes and then switch to anything in the same or lesser price range, and ask yourself "What happened to the sound?" That phenomenon occurs when you get accustomed to a headphone which projects a lot of detail, then switch to one whose detail is more subtle or softer, yet is perfectly good. You might convince yourself you can listen around all of that and not be misled, but it doesn't work for me after years of trying. Just thought I'd mention it ....
 

Covenanter

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I've discovered that RicherSounds in Birmingham stock the Shure phones so I can hear them there. Unfortunately they don't stock anything else I want to listen to.

Chris
 

Covenanter

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And they don't have them and I was told they don't like to audition headphones because of Health & Safety issues so that they have to pack them up and send them back to the manufacturers to be cleaned after anyone tries them! This is turning into a bit of a nightmare - nobody stocks a comprehensive range and maybe you can't try them anyway!

Not a happy bunny this morning. :cry:

Chris
 

dalethorn

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Covenanter said:
And they don't have them and I was told they don't like to audition headphones because of Health & Safety issues so that they have to pack them up and send them back to the manufacturers to be cleaned after anyone tries them! This is turning into a bit of a nightmare - nobody stocks a comprehensive range and maybe you can't try them anyway! Not a happy bunny this morning. :cry:

Chris

Did you try the HiFiHeadphones demo place that was posted earlier?
 

Covenanter

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They did look best but (a) they don't stock half the things I'd like to listen to and (b) it's a trek to get to them. I've pretty much decided I'm going to work on the advice of reviews of people like yourself (for which much thanks) who obviously know what they are talking about and I'm going to take a punt on those which people who listen to the same type of music as me like the most. I know this isn't the best way of going about it but life isn't long enough for the systematic route (and I'm an impatient git).:rofl:

Chris
 
A

Anonymous

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Ya the Shure 1840 are very light and I really enjoyed using them
 

Covenanter

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I chose to buy the AKG K702 headphones after a lot of research. Headphones are a difficult purchase because it’s hard to audition them due to the difficulty of finding a retailer who stocks a wide range and also because retailers are reluctant to let people try them due to health and safety concerns around cleanliness.

My research was threefold. Firstly I looked at reviews by hifi magazines and websites. Then I consulted hifi forums and lastly I looked at product reviews on sites like Amazon from people who actually had purchased items. All opinions gathered in this way have to be treated with some caution because the views are subjective and, to be frank, some people do have favourite brands. The opinions I took the most notice of were from people who like the same type of music as me, which is mainly classical. These came out heavily in favour of AKG headphones and the K702s in particular.

I also took price into account. I was willing to spend rather more than the roughly £250 the AKGs cost but there is a law of diminishing returns in hifi and everything I read made me think that, whilst I could get better headphones, I would probably be satisfied with the AKGs.

Ok so they come in a nice enough box. There is no case but that is not a concern for me as they will only be used at home and I have a convenient shelf for them to sit on. They have a tubular metal framework with a leather strap which goes on top of your head. The bodies are made of plastic and they have foam ear-surrounds. They are pretty light, 360g on my kitchen scales, including the cable, which is detachable. They are “open back” which means that they don’t insulate you fully from external noise nor indeed do they protect others from your music. So they are for use in private!

I have found them very comfortable. As mentioned, they are light so there is no problem there and I didn’t find that my ears got hot even after a couple of hours of listening. Some reviewers have said that they found the ridges under the leather strap uncomfortable but to be frank I didn’t really notice they were there. (I wonder if people have been pulling the phones hard down onto their scalp?)

In terms of sound quality this is an early review. Some reviewers say that they need hundreds of hours to “run in” but I found them excellent straight out of the box. Some reviewers also say that they are much better with a dedicated headphone amp but I haven’t tried that. In fact so far I have only tried them using the headphone socket on my Marantz CD6004. I will in due course try them using the socket on my Marantz PM6004.

I’ve listened to a wide variety of music but the main ones to talk about are:
  • Grieg Lieder – Ann Sofie von Otter, Bengt Forsberg - DG437 521-2
  • Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto – Kyung Wha Chung, LSO, Previn – Decca 475 7734
  • Allegri Miserere – Tallis Scholars – Gimell CDGIM 339
  • Jeff Wayne’s War of the Worlds – Columbia DPCD96000 (I think!)
  • Jennifer Warnes, Famous Blue Raincoat -20th anniversary edition – Shout 826663-10490
  • Prokofiev Symphony 5, SNO, Jarvi – Chandos 8450

The Grieg is rather special, being a Penguin Guide Rosette winner and a former Gramophone “record of the year”. The performances by both singer and accompanist are outstanding and the digital recording is demonstration quality. It is a tough test for any piece of equipment. The AKGs shone here. Von Otter’s voice was captured in all its beauty and in some ways even better the piano was beautifully reproduced, all the notes perfectly represented to my ears. The sound staging was also excellent and by closing my eyes I could easily envisage a live performance.

The Tchaikovsky is a much older (1970) analogue recording and I included it in the test not only because it is a wonderful performance but also I wanted to be see how the AKGs handed a non-digital recording (albeit a well-regarded one) and how they would integrate a soloist with a full orchestra. I’m pleased to say that all was well and indeed it was so good I played it through twice.

The Allegri is also an old analogue recording but you wouldn’t guess that. This is also a really tough test because the key thing is to be able to reproduce the acoustic of the venue, actually the Chapel of Merton College, Oxford, and to set the voices properly in perspective in it. This is hard because the solo group and the main choir are located at opposite ends of the Chapel, so to get it right you have to recreate a huge 3-dimensional sound stage. The distant and often hushed voices of the main choir have to live in harmony with the much closer solo group and Alison Stamp’s wonderful treble has to soar above everything. I was quite stunned at how good the AKGs were at achieving this. My KEF Q500s do it better but you would expect that as they have the whole volume of a room to achieve it in. To make it realistic with headphones is excellent.

The “War of the Worlds” is an old favourite and includes some excellent sound effects as well as some punchy popular music, with the added bonus of Richard Burton’s wonderful narration. Burton really came alive through the AKGs and indeed everything sounded great. The “unscrewing” of the Martian canister sounded fantastic, I won’t say realistic because that would be the wrong word, and it conveyed a wonderful impression of what was happening. It was so involving that I listened to the whole CD rather than the first 10 minutes as I had intended.

Jennifer Warnes is one of “the” voices of the late 20th century in my opinion and her versions of Leonard Cohen’s songs are highly prized. As Cohen himself said of her singing “I stand by my original astonishment”. I won’t go through the tracks but the AKGs didn’t stumble and of particular note they handled with ease the rather difficult live version of “Joan of Arc”, which can sound dreadful on cheap equipment.

I chose the Prokofiev because it is highly percussive and I wanted to see if the AKGs could separate out all the various percussion instruments that are employed. In addition I wanted to know if they could convey the great excitement and drive of the final movement. They could! I could identify all the instruments and when I closed my eyes it took me back to a live performance I saw in the Albert Hall many years ago.

To summarise, the AKGs performed well on all the music I tried. They were particularly good at presenting a realistic sound-stage; the performers seemed to be there in front of you. The Allegri was particularly impressive. I have read reviews that say the AKGs lack bass. I don’t think that is right. I think they are neutral and reproduce what is there (albeit nothing I tried has a heavy bass component). If you want bass to be boosted these are not the headphones for you! They are rather analytical, i.e. everything is separated out and put into place, and people who like a smoother sound might find that wearing. I simply think it is realistic and I think the more you listen to these headphones the more you will appreciate the analysis.

Overall I am very pleased with my purchase!

I hope this long review helps others and in some way pays back the advice I've received on here.

Chris
 

Covenanter

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I've been listening this afternoon and evening with the phones plugged into the PM6004 and there is a distinct improvement, the music is more vivid and exciting. I think the pre-amp stage of the PM6004 must be rather good.

Chris
 

Covenanter

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So willl I get a quantum improvement if I now buy a separate amplifier? Or should I go for a separate DAC/Amplifier? If so which are the recommended devices?

I think I wouldn't spend more than £250 unless it brought a major improvement!

Chris
 

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