Question Old vs New/Isolation?

[MrPenkwin]

Hello all. I've tried searching for this to avoid a duplicate question but can't find anything.

I have a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB. It's my first turntable and I've never really been happy with it. Mainly due to the fact that it doesn't appear to be well isolated and despite little use, the fixings that retain the lid hinges have worked away from the plinth meaning I've had to get crafty. Yet my mates old Technics SL1700 MK1 TT he got for £5 at a car boot has much better isolation and sounds far cleaner with a AT95E cartridge.

Pro-Ject supplied feet are felt, which I think is odd. My DIY platform is a granite cutting board on rubber feet and then blu-tack under the feet of the TT. What can I do to better isolate?

Is it worth working with what I've got, or is the build and sound quality better in older 70s turntables?

 

[Al ears]

Hello all. I've tried searching for this to avoid a duplicate question but can't find anything.

I have a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB. It's my first turntable and I've never really been happy with it. Mainly due to the fact that it doesn't appear to be well isolated and despite little use, the fixings that retain the lid hinges have worked away from the plinth meaning I've had to get crafty. Yet my mates old Technics SL1700 MK1 TT he got for £5 at a car boot has much better isolation and sounds far cleaner with a AT95E cartridge.

Pro-Ject supplied feet are felt, which I think is odd. My DIY platform is a granite cutting board on rubber feet and then blu-tack under the feet of the TT. What can I do to better isolate?

Is it worth working with what I've got, or is the build and sound quality better in older 70s turntables?

Not too sure about sound quality but build quality could be better on older decks. You have to consider what they would have cost when they first came out and would that would be in today's money.
One of the best ways to isolate a turntable is to stick it on a wall-mounted platform.
You have yours on a granite block but what is the block sitting on??!
Unfortunately really good isolation platforms like Townshend are going to cost more than your turntable....

 

[MrPenkwin]

One of the best ways to isolate a turntable is to stick it on a wall-mounted platform.
You have yours on a granite block but what is the block sitting on??!
Unfortunately really good isolation platforms like Townshend are going to cost more than your turntable....

Thanks for the response. It's sitting on a media unit made by 'Just Racks' which is similar to IKEA's offerings. So probably not at all best, but the best I could find to house my kit. Wall mounting isn't an option since I'm in a rented property. Would changing the feet help/are there any good DIY methods that have proven to be cost efficient. I've been tempted a few times to try Iso Acoustics Zazen but wanted to try cheaper options first.

 

[Al ears]

Thanks for the response. It's sitting on a media unit made by 'Just Racks' which is similar to IKEA's offerings. So probably not at all best, but the best I could find to house my kit. Wall mounting isn't an option since I'm in a rented property. Would changing the feet help/are there any good DIY methods that have proven to be cost efficient. I've been tempted a few times to try Iso Acoustics Zazen but wanted to try cheaper options first.

Personally I wouldn't bother on a turntable that isn't a suspended platter type however if you must there are some decent feet on the market but again not cheap and, unless you happen to dance around directly in front of your turntable, I don't see how much difference they could make.
The IsoAcoustics Zazen does appear to be very good at what it does mind you....

 

[Fandango Andy]

Hello all. I've tried searching for this to avoid a duplicate question but can't find anything.

I have a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB. It's my first turntable and I've never really been happy with it. Mainly due to the fact that it doesn't appear to be well isolated and despite little use, the fixings that retain the lid hinges have worked away from the plinth meaning I've had to get crafty. Yet my mates old Technics SL1700 MK1 TT he got for £5 at a car boot has much better isolation and sounds far cleaner with a AT95E cartridge.

Pro-Ject supplied feet are felt, which I think is odd. My DIY platform is a granite cutting board on rubber feet and then blu-tack under the feet of the TT. What can I do to better isolate?

Is it worth working with what I've got, or is the build and sound quality better in older 70s turntables?

You talk about isolation, but not what you are trying to isolate from, or what the problem with the sound is. You have sat the turntable on a hard resonating surface, something a little more dead may help. Try a big thick piece of MDF (you can paint.it black to make it look more aesthetically pleasing) and sit on some isolation feet (or the DIY option, half squash balls), then sit the turntable on top of that.

By the way IKEA LACK tables (especially older heavier ones) are great for turn tables. The owner of Linn always used to use one to demonstrate his LP12 record players.

 

[abacus]

Put it on a rubber car mat, as this may be all you need.

Bill

 

[Integralista]

Hello all. I've tried searching for this to avoid a duplicate question but can't find anything.

I have a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB. It's my first turntable and I've never really been happy with it. Mainly due to the fact that it doesn't appear to be well isolated and despite little use, the fixings that retain the lid hinges have worked away from the plinth meaning I've had to get crafty. Yet my mates old Technics SL1700 MK1 TT he got for £5 at a car boot has much better isolation and sounds far cleaner with a AT95E cartridge.

Pro-Ject supplied feet are felt, which I think is odd. My DIY platform is a granite cutting board on rubber feet and then blu-tack under the feet of the TT. What can I do to better isolate?

Is it worth working with what I've got, or is the build and sound quality better in older 70s turntables?

Hi,

the problem with sound of your Project you describe appeared right after purchase or later? Normaly, project is known for very good build quality, made in Czech Republic. I do not recommend to change feets on TT. It may get sound worse. It was my experience some 10 years ago. If TT is technically OK, it must normally work. Is central bearing of platter OK, is there oil in the bearing? If not, this can be disaster. Same for electric motor with pulley and the belt. Is it all OK? Pls. check those key elements on your TT before making any modifications. Project has similar TT chassis construction like Rega. And my two Regas work flowless. My more than 25 years old and still used Planar 25 still works, I have original lid and even hinges are OK...I used wall hanger for my P25 and later TT landed on sturdy massive old IKEA TV table, see pics. I have just some 10 kg concrete plates below each my Rega TT. And it works fine. I just added 4 more rotating wheels below table (8pcs now) to get better stability. Even I have two subwoofers Velodyne SPL 800 just behind TV table... No real problem during normal listening levels. May be: try to lend some other not suspended TT, like your Project or Rega and compare it at home with your own Project TT. BR. Juraj

 

[Fred1958]

I had a two inch thick piece of slate cut at our local stone merchants and placed a soft rubber floor pad on each corner plus one in the centre and placed it on the my rack shelf. Cones and pads from here (although I decided that the pads were unnecessary but came with the cones) https://precisiongeek.eu/collection...eaker-spikes-4-x-spikes-pads-3m-adhesive-pads to replace the turntable feet. Make sure it is absolutely level. Works for me.

I had on old Thorens TD 160B MKll which I bought in 1985 second-hand which I thought sounded excellent and never thought to question its performance. CDs came about and it languished in the loft for a number of years but I did hang on to my vinyl collection which was stored alongside it. The resurgence of vinyl rekindled my interest in turntables but seeing the cost of a new deck held me back so I got the idea of refurbishing the Thorens. it it all started with the help of a chap (proper craftsman more like) working on our home stairs refurbishment just before Lockdown. He was keen to test his new router so I asked him to create a new plinth from a piece of the spare solid oak stair kit which he cut from to the spec of the old plinth. I then braced and glued it together quite easily thanks to his extremely accurate work.
I then sourced and fitted a new top plate (£30) and had a direct rewire from cartridge to phono plugs which was done by Vinyl Source in Scotland (£150 plus postage) who did an absolutely brilliant job on the SME 3009 - absolutely no hum even at full volume. I glued felt damping underneath on the sub chassis, removed and cleaned the springs and added a new thick plywood base plate from my spare wood collection with Do-Do Dead Mat attached (£7). I sourced a solid aluminium arm board from SoundSupports on eBay (£40) and the arm is now fitted with a Goldring E3. A new thick felt mat sits underneath a cork/rubber mat (£8). Relevelling the deck was not as hard as it appeared as there are plenty of tips on the web available.
It now weighs an absolute ton compared to the original and for around £250, of which £150 was for the rewire (but so well worth the cost), I have a deck that may out-perform much more costlier decks that I could not realistically afford now. In all it took about 20 hours to complete but it has given me so much listening pleasure and worth the effort all for about £1 per week since then.

David

 

[skinnypuppy71]

I use Iso acoustics orea indigo (x3) with a tesco granite worktop protector under my Avid ingenium plug n play to very good effect.....not super cheap but neither super expensive, I've also just splurged out on the iso acoustics orea bronze (x6) for under my Neat petite classic standmount speakers, also has worked some magic in this respect, bass has tightened up and the speakers just seem more expressive in their presentation. Probably the best 300 quid I've spent on my system,well apart from the Goldring g1042. Lol

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I use stuff from this place and find it excellent - what could be more elegant a solution than floating on thin air - but whether they are economic I don't know:

Aluminium Hifi Isolation - Solid Air Audio Hifi Isolation systems

High quality aluminium hifi isolation feet which improve the sound quality of your music. They significantly reduce vibration in hifi components.

solidairaudio.com

 

[MrPenkwin]

Personally I wouldn't bother on a turntable that isn't a suspended platter type

I tried searching for the suspended type but couldn't much. What sort of price do they come in at?

 

[Al ears]

I tried searching for the suspended type but couldn't much. What sort of price do they come in at?

They are usually at the expensive end of the spectrum

 

[Rodolfo]

I recently splurged/indulged on this baby -not sure at all how much it helps, but it does look nice, and that always matters to this "well-known member".

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09KH5MLLP/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Suspended turntables usually start around 3k and upwards. Check out michell gyrodeck, Avid Volvere, Origin live, Vertere....have suspended turntables, oh and Linn

 

[MrPenkwin]

You talk about isolation, but not what you are trying to isolate from, or what the problem with the sound is. You have sat the turntable on a hard resonating surface, something a little more dead may help. Try a big thick piece of MDF (you can paint.it black to make it look more aesthetically pleasing) and sit on some isolation feet (or the DIY option, half squash balls), then sit the turntable on top of that.

By the way IKEA LACK tables (especially older heavier ones) are great for turn tables. The owner of Linn always used to use one to demonstrate his LP12 record players.

If I were to walk near-ish the speakers, the cones move a fair bit. Whilst this isn't exactly audible from what I can gather, it's still not isolating very well. All very good tips here, the squash balls are a good shout!

Are Linn LP12s still well regarded? Trying to weigh up isolating mine and getting a better cartridge vs selling it and buying something from the 70s/80s up to a value of around £1000.

 

[MrPenkwin]

Hi,

the problem with sound of your Project you describe appeared right after purchase or later?

After purchase. I don't think it's faulty (though the hinge fixings could be better), I think given the reviews of it and the 2M Red cartridge, I had expected better. It's my first TT and £439 was a lot for me to spend. In my opinion it often sound thin and boring meaning I never really took to it.

Normaly, project is known for very good build quality, made in Czech Republic. I do not recommend to change feets on TT. It may get sound worse.

Is it normal for them to supply with felt feet though? If I didn't put blu-tack under them the whole thing slides about simply from lifting the dust cover off.

It was my experience some 10 years ago. If TT is technically OK, it must normally work. Is central bearing of platter OK, is there oil in the bearing?

I haven't checked, though I am sure is okay. Silicone grease or a specific grease?

Did you have those photos; I can't see any uploads.

 

[MrPenkwin]

I had a two inch thick piece of slate cut at our local stone merchants and placed a soft rubber floor pad on each corner plus one in the centre and placed it on the my rack shelf. Cones and pads from here (although I decided that the pads were unnecessary but came with the cones) https://precisiongeek.eu/collection...eaker-spikes-4-x-spikes-pads-3m-adhesive-pads to replace the turntable feet. Make sure it is absolutely level. Works for me.

I had on old Thorens TD 160B MKll which I bought in 1985 second-hand which I thought sounded excellent and never thought to question its performance. CDs came about and it languished in the loft for a number of years but I did hang on to my vinyl collection which was stored alongside it. The resurgence of vinyl rekindled my interest in turntables but seeing the cost of a new deck held me back so I got the idea of refurbishing the Thorens. it it all started with the help of a chap (proper craftsman more like) working on our home stairs refurbishment just before Lockdown. He was keen to test his new router so I asked him to create a new plinth from a piece of the spare solid oak stair kit which he cut from to the spec of the old plinth. I then braced and glued it together quite easily thanks to his extremely accurate work.
I then sourced and fitted a new top plate (£30) and had a direct rewire from cartridge to phono plugs which was done by Vinyl Source in Scotland (£150 plus postage) who did an absolutely brilliant job on the SME 3009 - absolutely no hum even at full volume. I glued felt damping underneath on the sub chassis, removed and cleaned the springs and added a new thick plywood base plate from my spare wood collection with Do-Do Dead Mat attached (£7). I sourced a solid aluminium arm board from SoundSupports on eBay (£40) and the arm is now fitted with a Goldring E3. A new thick felt mat sits underneath a cork/rubber mat (£8). Relevelling the deck was not as hard as it appeared as there are plenty of tips on the web available.
It now weighs an absolute ton compared to the original and for around £250, of which £150 was for the rewire (but so well worth the cost), I have a deck that may out-perform much more costlier decks that I could not realistically afford now. In all it took about 20 hours to complete but it has given me so much listening pleasure and worth the effort all for about £1 per week since then.

David

Thanks for the tips. That looks stunning btw.

 

[MrPenkwin]

Suspended turntables usually start around 3k and upwards. Check out michell gyrodeck, Avid Volvere, Origin live, Vertere....have suspended turntables, oh and Linn

Ahhh, that sucks for me! I'll Google but I cannot touch just yet!

 

[camcroft]

Suspended turntables usually start around 3k and upwards. Check out michell gyrodeck, Avid Volvere, Origin live, Vertere....have suspended turntables, oh and Linn

Thorens.

 

[Fred1958]

Thank you for your compliment re my Thorens Mr Penkwin. I posted just to show what could be done on a tight budget and I think at £250 I have made some serious inroads into improving the sound quality of my system in reinventing what was a perfectly good deck to a hopefully new level within a realistic level of investment of time and expense.
My interest in HI-Fi began 45 years ago through a work colleague who happened to be a friend of Colin Walker who made the Walker CJ series of turntables and I can remember Colin saying 'rubbish in, rubbish out' which has stayed with me throughout my Hi-Fi lifetime. 'Make the source as good as you can for the money you have and that is the basis of a great sounding system,' or something like that, he added. I never bought one of his turntables though. They were too expensive for me at the time.

 

[MrPenkwin]

Is it a normal procedure for TT manufacturers to supply felt feet? Unless I use blu-tack underneath the whole thing slides about like it's on ice simply from lifting the dust cover off. I would have thought rubber would be better at isolation and gripping.

When it comes to maintenance of the TT, does it matter what sort of oil/grease is used and what frequency is appropriate?

 

[Fred1958]

I've had my Thorens for nigh on 40 years and in that time (10 years in storage) I have oiled the bearing with sewing machine oil every couple of years. Each time I have cleaned (as best as possible) any residue of the old oil from the bearing and housing with lint-free cloth and then put in four drops to lubricate. Excess lubrication is perceived to have a detrimental effect.
The cones I use hold my turntable in place, but then it probably weighs around 14 kilos and which may account for the lack of movement. It is also heavily damped and braced to cut down in internal resonance. I have, in the past, experimented with squash balls cut in half and sorbothane, but the cones seem to work the best for me and at the same time look great. You could try cones and pads with either double sided tape or blu tak under the pads to keep them in situ.

 

[MrPenkwin]

I've had my Thorens for nigh on 40 years and in that time (10 years in storage) I have oiled the bearing with sewing machine oil every couple of years. Each time I have cleaned (as best as possible) any residue of the old oil from the bearing and housing with lint-free cloth and then put in four drops to lubricate. Excess lubrication is perceived to have a detrimental effect.
The cones I use hold my turntable in place, but then it probably weighs around 14 kilos and which may account for the lack of movement. It is also heavily damped and braced to cut down in internal resonance. I have, in the past, experimented with squash balls cut in half and sorbothane, but the cones seem to work the best for me and at the same time look great. You could try cones and pads with either double sided tape or blu tak under the pads to keep them in situ.

Thanks for the info. I presume if I were to try the halved squash balls, I'd use these instead of the feet and just rest them underneath the turntable or use some double sided tape maybe?

 

[Fred1958]

When I tried the squash balls I just placed some double sided tape on the base plate of the Thorens around each existing foot to create a seal and then placed the squash balls over the top of them round side facing down mainly for aesthetics but either way up would work I suppose. You'll see a a line around the balls equator, cut a small nick along it and they should peel in half. Sports Direct do a pack of three for a tenner.

 

[MrPenkwin]

When I tried the squash balls I just placed some double sided tape on the base plate of the Thorens around each existing foot to create a seal and then placed the squash balls over the top of them round side facing down mainly for aesthetics but either way up would work I suppose. You'll see a a line around the balls equator, cut a small nick along it and they should peel in half. Sports Direct do a pack of three for a tenner.

Thanks, I'll give it a go. That's a proper Hi-Fi bargain right there!