New vs Secondhand

[thewinelake.]

OK, so I've been looking for "compact/unobtrusive" speakers for the "new" living room and one shop I went to on Sunday was a specialist in "vintage" kit - i.e. secondhand. The guy there suggested that one could get about 30% extra value by buying used equipment - eg. an Amp for £400 that would perform the same (or better) than a new amp at £600. Of course he's talking about his shop's pricing - which for obvious reasons (margin as well as some form of guaranteed satisfaction or return) will be quite a bit more than eBay pricing.

I had previously been coveting an Audiolab 8000A (an amp I used to admire back in the 80's) and was looking on eBay and now seem to have acquired it for what I thought was a slightly lowball offer (maybe it'll turn out to be a dog that even Audio Cellar can't fix!). That was not the plan at all - I was intending to stick with the A&R A60 and then upgrade to something modern like a Cambridge Audio CX60 or Rotel RA-11 or whatever, perhaps in 2017 - but buy some £500 speakers this year (I'm gravitating towards stand-mounters, like B&W S685, CM1 or maybe Dynaudio Emit M10/M20, etc). So maybe I should look at secondhand speakers too? eg. ATC SCM 111 - in theory a rather upmarket speaker that can be had secondhand for my budget?

One problem with the (non-shop) second-hand market, though, is that demoing is impractical. You might get lucky and know someone with the kit you're interested in and they might let you listen to theirs. However, the potential rewards are high. If you like unfashionable stuff, then you're also more likely to get a bargain - and I suspect that things like ATCs are quite fashionable. My take on all this is that if you do your research (which might be quite time-consuming) and are careful and patient, then it's a great way to get a decent system for your money.

Does this sound right, or have I missed out something important?!

Are some components best left to new than others?

BTW - if one bids for and wins something on eBay then goes to pick it up to find that it's not quite as per the ad, I presume it's OK to void the sale?

 

[BigH]

OK, so I've been looking for "compact/unobtrusive" speakers for the "new" living room and one shop I went to on Sunday was a specialist in "vintage" kit - i.e. secondhand. The guy there suggested that one could get about 30% extra value by buying used equipment - eg. an Amp for £400 that would perform the same (or better) than a new amp at £600. Of course he's talking about his shop's pricing - which for obvious reasons (margin as well as some form of guaranteed satisfaction or return) will be quite a bit more than eBay pricing.

I had previously been coveting an Audiolab 8000A (an amp I used to admire back in the 80's) and was looking on eBay and now seem to have acquired it for what I thought was a slightly lowball offer (maybe it'll turn out to be a dog that even Audio Cellar can't fix!). That was not the plan at all - I was intending to stick with the A&R A60 and then upgrade to something modern like a Cambridge Audio CX60 or Rotel RA-11 or whatever, perhaps in 2017 - but buy some £500 speakers this year (I'm gravitating towards stand-mounters, like B&W S685, CM1 or maybe Dynaudio Emit M10/M20, etc). So maybe I should look at secondhand speakers too? eg. ATC SCM 111 - in theory a rather upmarket speaker that can be had secondhand for my budget?

One problem with the (non-shop) second-hand market, though, is that demoing is impractical. You might get lucky and know someone with the kit you're interested in and they might let you listen to theirs. However, the potential rewards are high. If you like unfashionable stuff, then you're also more likely to get a bargain - and I suspect that things like ATCs are quite fashionable. My take on all this is that if you do your research (which might be quite time-consuming) and are careful and patient, then it's a great way to get a decent system for your money.

Does this sound right, or have I missed out something important?!

Are some components best left to new than others?

BTW - if one bids for and wins something on eBay then goes to pick it up to find that it's not quite as per the ad, I presume it's OK to void the sale?

I agree, second hand is a lot better value. Only thing you have missed is the warranty you get on new. I doubt I will buy new again unless I get a large discount. If I was buying now I would buy used. At the prices you are looking I would consider AVI 9RS/RSS, they go for about £750, not many around at the moment though, they do come in piano white. These are far better than B&W CM1s.

 

[NJB]

One factor to add weight to buying secondhand is that you are not risking much money. You might not be able to audition kit, but if you stick to well respected brands then you can resell if you make a choice that does not work out. You will get back most, if not all, of what you paid. This theory does not work with shops that are putting a margin on the kit, but on eBay and the like then you really are getting some very decent deals.

 

[lindsayt]

thewinelake, that's a very fair summary.

You are quite correct when you say that if you go to collect something from ebay, and it's not at least as good as described - in every respect - then the sale is void, or subject to renegotiation.

It's impossible to put percentage improvements in value for money of 2nd hand vs new.

I'd be disappointed if my 2nd hand purchases represented only 30% better value. I'm more ambitious and aim for 90% or better value for money. IE I'd have to pay 10 times more to get a new modern equivalent or the item is at 10% of its' new price.

In the last few years I've had very simple rules for buying 2nd hand. If it cost over a million yen when new, weighs a certain minimum amount (eg over 70kgs per speaker) and I can buy it for £250 or for a significantly lower price than the current going rate then I will buy it without hesitation.

 

[thewinelake.]

So that's over £6,000 for £250? It would be rude not to!

BTW, the 30% figure came from a shop, so, yes one would hope for substantially better secondhand.

I'm wondering now if I am/was looking too low - rather than Audiolab, I should be looking at Krell?! Perhaps expensive kit loses more of its value (as with cars)

 

[MajorFubar]

2nd hand makes sense if you know the kit of old and therefore you know what's you're buying. Something you've always lusted after which perhaps you demo'd when new but was over-budget, and where time+shifting fashions+disposable society has now put it within your price bracket. It's not something I'd recommend to HiFi virgins who don't know their arse from their elbow, instead I'd point them towards a reputable dealer who can help them put together a system from new components that meets their needs.

 

[thewinelake.]

One could easily end up with a bunch of "bargains" that just don't work together....

 

[Al ears]

One could easily end up with a bunch of "bargains" that just don't work together....

Or at all...... ;-)

 

[davedotco]

One could easily end up with a bunch of "bargains" that just don't work together....

Mainstream dealers, in my experience, simply sell the most popular products, top ratings, 5* reviews and the the rest. The art of system buliding, particularly at the budget and mid-fi level is all but dead.

If you are lucky enough to have a decent independent close by then you should use him. Let him take you through the options and prove to you what works by demonstration.

It will undoubtably cost a little more, but it is worth it to get it right.

 

[lindsayt]

One could easily end up with a bunch of "bargains" that just don't work together....

If you stick to million yen kit that meets my minimum weight requirements you can put any source with any amp with any speakers and you will get a very high level of sound reproduction.

Matching tends to be more important when you have equipment with major sonic flaws - the sort that are inevitable when manufacturing down to a cost - where the trick is to put together a system comprised of components with complimentary flaws.

When you have components that only have minor flaws, mixing and matching them is easier.

If you have the extra few hundred quid, I think it makes a lot more sense to go for a Krell (if that's what you fancy - they're not quite my cup of tea) rather than an Audiolab. Might as well go straight for the best. You deserve it. Your music collection deserves it.

 

[thewinelake.]

Maybe when I've got the house more to myself ;-)

I was joking when referring to Krell. If I were to be serious, what kind of kit have you bought that met these criteria?

 

[lindsayt]

I've bought EMT 930, EMT 950, Studer A807, EV Patricians plus a few circa half million yen (when new) items made by Coincident, Bozak, JBL, EV.

You do see older Krell and Mark Levinson amps at relatively afforable prices from time to time, as well as some of the Japanese top of the range amps.

 

[Dom]

Buying 2nd hand makes sense, My bro's Cyrus amp was a bargain.

Also for nostalgia reasons along time ago, I bought the discontinued Yamaha DS2416 sound card for £30. Thats 95% off.

 

[jjbomber]

Almost everyone who can afford it will buy new, simple as that.

 

[BigH]

Almost everyone who can afford it will buy new, simple as that.

No! Thats rubbish.

 

[Gaz37]

One could easily end up with a bunch of "bargains" that just don't work together....

I've done exactly that in the past, I bought four pairs of speakers and two CDPs before ending up with some I was happy with.

Bonus was that I bought them all on EBay and sold them all on Gumtree at a profit, sometimes quite a large one. (Mordaunt MS35ti bought for £10, sold for £35)

 

[lindsayt]

Almost everyone who can afford it will buy new, simple as that.

Most people who are wealthy get there and stay there by being good with their money.

It's the tycoon mentality where the aim is to invest 90% of your income on your business and spend 10% on yourself.

Buying hi-fi new simply doesn't fit in with the tycoon mentality.

It's also an ego thing. Not getting ripped off. Finding a bargain.

Why spend money on a depreciating asset when you can spend less money on an appreciating asset that will do the job better?

 

[jjbomber]

Most people who are wealthy get there and stay there by being good with their money.

It's the tycoon mentality where the aim is to invest 90% of your income on your business and spend 10% on yourself.

Buying hi-fi new simply doesn't fit in with the tycoon mentality.

It's also an ego thing. Not getting ripped off. Finding a bargain.

Why spend money on a depreciating asset when you can spend less money on an appreciating asset that will do the job better?

I'll make it easy for you. If you put a brand new hi-fi next to a 10 year old version of the same hi-fi, then asked people to take either one free of charge, almost everyone would take the new one.

 

[BigH]

Most people who are wealthy get there and stay there by being good with their money.

It's the tycoon mentality where the aim is to invest 90% of your income on your business and spend 10% on yourself.

Buying hi-fi new simply doesn't fit in with the tycoon mentality.

It's also an ego thing. Not getting ripped off. Finding a bargain.

Why spend money on a depreciating asset when you can spend less money on an appreciating asset that will do the job better?

I'll make it easy for you. If you put a brand new hi-fi next to a 10 year old version of the same hi-fi, then asked people to take either one free of charge, almost everyone would take the new one.

Thats not the same thing. If you can buy a much better hifi used than you can buy new thats the point. We are not talking about the same hifi. New hifi you are paying for dealer profit and VAT. Thats over half the price. You can buy nearly new with a big discount. You can buy much more exotic hifi system than just some budget one you probably will want to upgrade withing 2 years.

 

[Gaz37]

The snob mentality.

Too many fools believe that more expensive must be better and get a feeling of smug self satisfaction from paying as much as they can afford (or more) for anything.

I actually know someone who, when buying a new TV, went to the shop charging £100 more than a competitor on the basis that she would get better service.

What's that saying about a fool and their money?

 

[lindsayt]

Most people who are wealthy get there and stay there by being good with their money.

It's the tycoon mentality where the aim is to invest 90% of your income on your business and spend 10% on yourself.

Buying hi-fi new simply doesn't fit in with the tycoon mentality.

It's also an ego thing. Not getting ripped off. Finding a bargain.

Why spend money on a depreciating asset when you can spend less money on an appreciating asset that will do the job better?

I'll make it easy for you. If you put a brand new hi-fi next to a 10 year old version of the same hi-fi, then asked people to take either one free of charge, almost everyone would take the new one.

I thought we were talking about the real world?

Where real people spend real money on real goods.

Not some fictitious game show scenario. Where the contestants have a choice of winning a new hi-fi or the same hi-fi that's 10 years old.

 

[thewinelake.]

One could easily end up with a bunch of "bargains" that just don't work together....

I've done exactly that in the past, I bought four pairs of speakers and two CDPs before ending up with some I was happy with.

Looks like I might be on my first pair - someone just accepted my offer of £350 for a pair of ProAc Tablette 8 Signatures. Wasn't expecting that!

 

[BigH]

I'll make it easy for you. If you put a brand new hi-fi next to a 10 year old version of the same hi-fi, then asked people to take either one free of charge, almost everyone would take the new one.

I'll make it easy for you, put a brand new hifi next to one that costs 2x the price when new but is in excellent condition but is 1 year old, which would they choose?