My new laptop sounds different from the old one.

[idc]

Why would a Sony VaioVGN-NW20EF sound different from a Dell Inspiron 1300? I have had to turn the volume down on the amp for a start. The Vaio is brighter and the bass has recessed and become more vague. The comparison is using Spotify premium.

On the plus side, I am getting more detail and dynamic off itunes from the Vaio over the Dell. I also find it easier to pick out imported CDs over lower bit rate downloads with the Vaio than the Dell. It is also easier to differentiate between Spotify and Apple lossless.

So for SQ the Dell was better with Spotify and the Vaio is better with itunes.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Are you listening via the computer's own speakers? If so, different amp, different speakers - you can see why that would sound different.

Via an analogue output into an amp? See above.

Via a digital output into an amp? Different levels of jitter, etc...

 

[idc]

The new setup looks exactly the same as the pictures on my signature, except the laptop is a Vaio. I also ressurected the thread on problems with itunes and crackling to make sure I had both laptops set up the same way. I got some great advice re settings in itunes and on the computer to get the best sound. Both Dell and Sony are setup the same way. I am now listening to some familiar Scandinavian Prog Rock on Spotify and with the volume at the same position as I used with the Dell, the sound is more recessed. If I put up the volume from 8.30 to 10.00 on the dial I regain some of the SQ, but not dynamically, Further listening and comparisons required.

 

[The_Lhc]

Now perhaps people will understand when i say listening direct from a pc is a bad idea. you just can't trust them, the swines!

 

[Frank Harvey]

Interesting....glad I don't use my laptop to stream music. It get enough use as it is anyway.

 

[idc]

Its not bad, I am not faceing disaster. But I will not be raving about the SQ of Spotify to the same extent as before. There was difference in the SQ of Spotify between the Dell Inspiron 1300 and 6400 we also have.

Considering the amount of changes of computers that go on out there, my present experience makes me surprised that such reports do not happen more often. Could it be that I am not afraid of reporting such, which can open you up to ridicule and scorn? Could it be that I have been listening to so much music from so many different formats/itunes/WMP/Spotify and other streaming services that I am getting used to the differences? So, with practice the slight and subtle changes become more obvious.

 

[nads]

Mmm still have no idea how you have connected what to what.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2698/4082094553_13f6f31872.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2450/4082095053_330aaa8bdd.jpg

and the bigger ones dont help too much.

 

[idc]

Starting at the laptop. There is a USB cable from the left side which goes into the DAC which is the small grey box on the right lower shelf. The small red box next to it on the left, is the power supply for the DAC. Its power cable and the small power cable that goes to the DAC are out of sight.

From the back of the DAC are SHB interconnects which go into the amp on the top shelf. You can see the headphone cable coming from the amp to the headphones. (The cable you can see to the left of the amp is its power supply cable disappearing down behind the back of the cupboard.

The wound up cables at the back behind the amp are my Grado headphones on its stand..

 

[Anonymous]

Looking at your pictures, the Dell Laptop is running Windows XP and as you are using an external DAC connected via USB, your laptop will see the DAC as an external soundcard.

Is your new Vaio running Vista by any chance?

If the answer is yes, then there will be a difference in sound between the two as the operating systems have different audio mixers. The Windows XP mixer usually operates at 16bit/48khz and the Spotify volume will be controlled via the WaveOut level in the console mixer, whilst Vista's audio engine is a revised and superior 32bit float affair, and Spotify should appear as a separate application in the Vista Mixer. The odd thing is that the Vista mixer should be far superior, it may be they are just set at different levels.

Are you able to see what sample rate the two laptops output the digital audio at, as this can be set in Vista via control panel > sounds ?

To get the cleanest sound from a Windows PC (Bit Perfect to the DAC), you need to try and bypass the internal mixer by using Kernel Streaming (XP) or WASAPI Exclusive Mode (Vista/W7), but this will depend on what software you use for playback and as I don't use spotify do not know how it renderers audio and if there are any options for kernel streaming/WASAPI.

What I do know is that any audio from either laptop that is sent to your DAC "bit perfect" should sound the same.

 

[Anonymous]

nice fireplace by the way

 

[The_Lhc]

idc:Both Dell and Sony are setup the same way.

Not a chance.

Seriously, we build windows clusters here, identical hardware, identical builds, patch levels etc etc. The chances of two "identical" boxes working in the same way? Minimal, I wouldn't put money on it.

One question I am interested in though, do you think your previous praise of Spotify was a relative thing, ie compared to your own stored music and do you think the Vaio is now giving you a more accurate representation of the two sources, such that you can determine an increase in the quality of the stored music or can you actually hear a degrading in the quality of Spotify?

I don't know if that makes any sense at all...

I guess it's a similar question to when a lesser system makes a poor recording sound better than when a more accurate but unsympathetic "better" system makes the same poor recording sound poor, because it is poor.

 

[idc]

Thanks ben. I posted the old picture and the Vaio is Windows 7, so I had not thought about the effect of different operating systems. New picture is on my signature, the actual setup is the same.

One off, I dont mind the fireplace, but the wife wants me to paint it white when we redecorate. The room is still as the previous residents had it.

The_lhc. Spotify sounds more recessed, particularly with the bass. It is as if I have gone back to the free lower bit rate version, with associated loss of clarity and detail. I may well, with so much listening, just becoming more practiced at picking out different bit rates. It certainly seems reasonable to say the more you do something the easier and clearer it becomes. I was happy to report not being able to hear the difference between 320kbps and above and that Spotify sounded as good as lossless (WMP and itunes). Now, I think I am better at picking out differences. But I am sure the Dell sounds better than the Vaio with Spotify.

Certainly listening to itunes off the laptop I can hear the difference between lossless and lower bit rates far clearer than before when listening from the Dell. Hence, I say the Vaio does sound better with itunes.

 

[Anonymous]

Some valid points by bendrummond. IDC, were you using kernel streaming on your Dell?

bendrummond:

What I do know is that any audio from either laptop that is sent to your DAC "bit perfect" should sound the same.

That is not necessarily correct. The quality of digital data, more precisely the amount of jitter, sent through Toslink varies too, bit perfect or not.

People say this is less of a problem with USB connections, but I've never understood why. I can imagine USB having the same problem. Regardless, IDC hears a clear difference. It might be worth experimenting with an extra USB card (PCMCIA (or whatever)).

 

[idc]

I have read about kernal streaming and PJPros posts on such. I decided it was too technical for me to try and change anything. So whatever the Dell and the Vaio come with is what I use. We have two Dells and they sound the same. They are both Windows XP and were bought within a year of each other about 2006-7.

Has anyone else noticed a difference when switching from one PC to another?

Just about my first ever post on the forum was what affect does the computer have on sound when using itunes. The few replies I got were, no effect, as the PC just store music files.

But a while back I posted the above on another thread saying there was no difference and Andrew Everard posted back saying, that is not necessarily the case. Have you found a difference Andrew?

 

[The_Lhc]

idc:Spotify sounds more recessed, particularly with the bass. It is as if I have gone back to the free lower bit rate version, with associated loss of clarity and detail.

Presumably you've checked that that hasn't happened?

I may well, with so much listening, just becoming more practiced at picking out different bit rates. It certainly seems reasonable to say the more you do something the easier and clearer it becomes. I was happy to report not being able to hear the difference between 320kbps and above and that Spotify sounded as good as lossless (WMP and itunes). Now, I think I am better at picking out differences. But I am sure the Dell sounds better than the Vaio with Spotify.

Certainly listening to itunes off the laptop I can hear the difference between lossless and lower bit rates far clearer than before when listening from the Dell. Hence, I say the Vaio does sound better with itunes.

Sounds very much to me that the Vaio is presenting a much more accurate sound, whereas the Dell was doing a lot of masking of the relative qualities of your sources.

 

[Anonymous]

kevinok without getting too technical its because the data passed through coax or optical relies on clocking to assemble the data in the right order where as usb uses basically a computer protocol that does not use clocking at all

in theory usb cannot have jitter

also note that jitter has to be at a relatively high levels for it to be audible theres an interesting paper here http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/50/_pdf which explains more

 

[Anonymous]

idc:
I have read about kernal streaming and PJPros posts on such. I decided it was too technical for me to try and change anything. So whatever the Dell and the Vaio come with is what I use. We have two Dells and they sound the same. They are both Windows XP and were bought within a year of each other about 2006-7.

Has anyone else noticed a difference when switching from one PC to another?

Ah, well that explains a lot. In short: WindowsXP uses a driver called Kernel Audio Mixer (known as KMixer) that resamples all audio data going through the computer to something that even low end soundcards know what to do with. This sucks. To get around that, stuff like direct kernel streaming was introduced. Luckily, the KMixer is gone since Vista. So even shorter: yes, your setup should sound much better now, but it's because of the OS, not the laptop.

Edit: ah, thanks One Off. Anyway, there's a much more obvious reason for the difference in SQ now.

Another edit. IDC: a friendly suggestion: there's tons of info on using a computer as a source on head-fi, covering this issue and many more. It might improve your experience further.

 

[idc]

The_lhc, when I downloaded Spotify one of the first things I did was enable high bit rate. The difference was so noticeable on first listening that I went back and checked it. I have got the dynamic back by switching from the more detailed AKGs to the more dynamic and sensitive Grados. I can easily cope with listening to Spotify on the Grados.

I see what you mean Kevin. I have changed from XP to 7 and that would explain the difference. It also explains why the two Dells, both with XP sound the same. I would say that is the answer.

PS - I am on headfi, but find computer advice and threads to be too techy for me. I prefer to chat about headphones and Scandinavian Prog Rock

 

[Anonymous]

Kevin,

Yes, you are quite correct in what you say, but I was referring to a USB connection rather than TOSLINK.

SPDIF as we all know is susceptible to jitter by its very design, but the audio effects of this depend on how much jitter there is and how well the receiving DAC can deal with it. With a PC USB -> USB DAC connection any jitter will be generated at the DAC end after USB packets have been buffered (i.e. the jitter "should be" the same), so things like USB cable etc should not make any difference, but I do not want to open this particular can of worms again on this forum, as things got very ugly last time.

 

[Alec]

So did Win7 sound better? Sorry, bit confused.

If one uses a different player does that bypass kmixer and the Win7 mixer? Or are all players affected (which is the impression i have been under up to know)?

 

[Anonymous]

Foobar with the WASPI plugin enabled will bypass the mixer (Vista/W7).

or

Media Player Classic using ReClock (set up to send PCM data to Kernel Streaming/WASPI) as the default audio renderer will bypass the mixer (XP/Vista/W7) or you can use the MPC Audio Renderer (very new and WASAPI only) to do the same.

 

[Alec]

Cheers.

But are all players affected by windows mixers without the use of some corrective software?

I tried ASIO4All recently with WMP but got silence.

 

[Anonymous]

Basically yes, because the Operating system has to mix the output of the audio player with all the other sounds on the pc to a common sample rate/frequency so it can mix them all together digitally, and typically (but not always) in Windows XP the mixing is usually done at 16bit/48khz depending on what is being inputted and what sample rates the sound card supports. Add to this the fact that even at maximum volume, the mixer resamples the volume level to 99% (or something similar as has been widely reported on the web) and you can see how the OS messes with the audio signal.

Things are improved considerably in Vista/W7 through the use of 32bit float mixer, but the audio is still being digitally manipulated.

Far better in my opinion to leave the software player's audio 'untouched' and send it direct to the soundcard, which in the case of an external USB DAC means a bit perfect digital signal.

It is also possible to send bit perfect audio via an internal soundcard's SPDIF, but only if the drivers and chipset on the card support this, some do, many don't but you also have the added complications of Jitter from PC to DAC.

ASIO is another method of bypassing the mixer, but with the advent of Vista and WASAPI audio, software players that can operate in Exclusive/WASAPI mode (send their audio direct to the soundcard) have become more popular and are generally easoer to set up/understand.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes.

I've never used WMP for music, but my gutfeeling is that WMP doesn't support Asio (it would be ironic if it would). But this is just me guessing. I do know Foobar 2000 with the Asio plugin works fine and is easy to configure.

 

[Alec]

i think i used a version of asio specifically for windows (so i probably shouldnt have called it...4All...sorry).

some of that is a bit over my head but im multi tasking so will look again later.