Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

[toyota man]

Yes that might be a good idea

 

[dumbledore]

It looks like you need to work out the exact impedance characteristic of your Dali's. It obviously they are hard for the amplifier. However out of 4 one may exhibit very bas impedance causing the amp to go into protection. So maybe be there is a case of fixing the culprit speaker. If hopefully all exhibit good impedance then you cheapest bet to go for two amp configuration with the Dali's impedance not droping anywhere below 3ohms. If you want one amp configuration you will need to go for some essoteric amplifiers that are far to expensive. Your current yamaha appears to drive the Dal's because it may not have a protection circuit that is effective. However, when you drive the Dali's hard the amplifier will most likely sound stressed. Then you could try to connect your speaker in series then you would not have any issues with protection.

 

[lovemusic]

It looks like you need to work out the exact impedance characteristic of your Dali's. It obviously they are hard for the amplifier. However out of 4 one may exhibit very bas impedance causing the amp to go into protection. So maybe be there is a case of fixing the culprit speaker. If hopefully all exhibit good impedance then you cheapest bet to go for two amp configuration with the Dali's impedance not droping anywhere below 3ohms. If you want one amp configuration you will need to go for some essoteric amplifiers that are far to expensive. Your current yamaha appears to drive the Dal's because it may not have a protection circuit that is effective. However, when you drive the Dali's hard the amplifier will most likely sound stressed. Then you could try to connect your speaker in series then you would not have any issues with protection.

Thanks, I wanted to just buy a new system along with a new set of speakers (far easier) hubby doesn't want to do that, hence this problem.

The Yamaha does have a protection system on it, but it hasn't been triggered by these speakers, maybe it just isn't as sensitive or isn't working. None of our amps have had a problem running these speakers, not even a lower powered amp. Although, the Yamaha is the lowest powered amp we have at the moment.

I don't think it is a faulty speaker, but we could be wrong, they all sound the same and never distort etc. The Yamaha can take the speakers higher than our ears will allow and the system or speakers don't sound stressed. Mind you, that could just be that our ears don't allow really loud music. The most my ears can managed out of the Yamaha with the Dalis is the 12 oclock position and that is only for a very short time and I think the whole street would hear it as well. I think I killed my ears years ago, too much loud music. I good level for our room is around the 8-o'clock to 10-o'clock at the highest on nearly all the amps we've tried.

Would you loose sound quality wiring speakers in series? Thanks.

 

[Mooly]

Speakers in series is a no no for quality as they interact electrically.

I don't know what it would be like in practice but the Marantz Pearl Lite squeaks in at £20 over the 600 mark and is reputed to be a sonic bargain. I have the Pearl Lite SACD and its stunning in every way.

You see, with the greatest respect, no amplifier in your price range is going to say that it will drive two pairs of 4 ohm speakers but, in real terms many amps will. You need a dealer that will let you try at home.

 

[lovemusic]

Speakers in series is a no no for quality as they interact electrically.

I don't know what it would be like in practice but the Marantz Pearl Lite squeaks in at £20 over the 600 mark and is reputed to be a sonic bargain. I have the Pearl Lite SACD and its stunning in every way.

You see, with the greatest respect, no amplifier in your price range is going to say that it will drive two pairs of 4 ohm speakers but, in real terms many amps will. You need a dealer that will let you try at home.

Thanks very much for your input. I think we need to find a dealer that will let us try something at home, I didn't know anyone would let you do that. We have never bothered in the past and yesterday was the first time we've actually taken any speakers into a store to demo an amp with.

The budget isn't fixed, it is just something that we would like to try and keep to but it can move. Having said that, if we heard something that would make these speakers sound out of this world (if that is possible with the Dali 505's that is) The budget could shoot up! Just listening to the Yamaha now and it isn't as nice as the Marantz was.

 

[BigH]

I have read elsewhere that the
HARMAN KARDON HK980

Is a powerful amp. that can handle difficult loads, think you can get these still for around £250 - £290, it is fairly old now but maybe what you need.

 

[GCE]

Yesterday I did some measures with Mara 6004 :CD Dark Side otm - absolutely high volumes (there were no neighbors!) with 15 o'clock knob

, ( the max is 17 hours) in the peaks had (average) : Vmax = 14 V/ch and Imax = 1.7 A, for a maximum power of almost 25 pot W/ch; I generally listen to 9:30 hours max, with my wife who's coming asking me for lower volumes....

I've to say that while the Quad 34 + 306 ,

that I owned before, with the same B&W 603 towers , and at a little lower volume, was going in protection (I had to unlock it using the back button) and also warmed up a bit on the smart front radiator, the Marantz instead was almost cold and never gone in protection.
The Quad was also sounding a little harsh and with harder highs, at these levels, while the Pm 6004 has retained a good liquidity on the highs, which were still confortable...;
Anyway in everydays normal cd listening, at 9:30, I get only 1 W/ch max on peaks!For your new amp: Yam AS 500, with 85 W and impedance settings on the back; I think it will meet your taste for a detailed and brigth sound (not for my taste, anyway...) - Just a few thoughts.

 

[lovemusic]

I have read elsewhere that the
HARMAN KARDON HK980

Is a powerful amp. that can handle difficult loads, think you can get these still for around £250 - £290, it is fairly old now but maybe what you need.

Interesting thanks very much. We have not owned a Harmon Kardon amp before, but we do have one of there speaker surround systems on one of our computers, sounds great in a small room.

 

[lovemusic]

Wow 15.00! I'd have blown my ears off lol. We didn't get to that though with the Marantz, with just one set of Dalis the highest we got was just past 12pm before it kicked off and I think I bit higher with a lesser bass track.

We do like the Yamaha stuff, I grew up with Yamaha, my Dad had their very top end stuff though. We did look at the Yamaha AS500, not listened to one though.

Sitting here listening to our old Yamaha and Yam cd player with the two sets of Dalis, sounds really clear at high voloumes, but those are too high for my ears and probably our neighbours, we are detached but only by several feet........it is at lower volumes it looses the clarity I'm looking for. I like clarity (don't we all lol) The Marantz had enough for us (more would be great, but it had enough) Our current Yamaha has enough loud but not enough at low volumes, I cannot really pick out the details of anything below the 9.00 clock position. It goes up and up this amp, I had it to 15.00 position and it was still clear and not distorting but my ears nearly flew off Hubby is currently subjecting me to the 10pm position with Dire Straits Money for Nothing.......

 

[GCE]

For me Yam AS 500 has plenty of details and a magical horizontal image, but a little bright for my taste ( I lived with it for 5 days...);

with his smart loudness you can have good sound at very low vol (in night time); have a test in shop or, better :dance: , at home...

 

[lovemusic]

For me Yam AS 500 has plenty of details and a magical horizontal image, but a little bright for my taste ( I lived with it for 5 days...);

with his smart loudness you can have good sound at very low vol (in night time); have a test in shop or, better :dance: , at home...

Sounds good. Do you know of any stores that will let you try amplifiers at home? To give you an idea of our amp taste, lots of people raved about the Pioneer A400, we have one and we don't like i that much, we like our Yamaha more and our old Denon PM7 something (it is upstairs and I cannot remember the exact model) Our current Yam amp is very good on very well produced CD's and great through DAB radio. However, most of our CD's are not that will produced. It sounds excellent with George Michael Ladies and Gentlemen, but rubbish with many other CD's. Could that be down to the CD player? Sorry loads of questions.

 

[dumbledore]

If an amplifier makes a speaker sound loud that you need to protect your ears this is mostly caused by the amplifier starting distorting badly not because the amplifier is powerful. As your yamaha is only 60W this could be the case. A powerful amplifier will cause the speaker to be stressed as the speaker will start distorting at high power drives. You should be able to differentiate between mechanical distortion caused by overdriven speaker and distortion caused by a weak amplifier that runs out of current and voltage by clipping the signal. Is possible that the Marantz has got a oversensitive protection system that is sensitive to any distorsion and shuts down the amp. The Yamaha protection system if is working does not shut down the amp, but probably just limits the curent delivery to protect the amplifier. Unfortunatelly a nasty protection system like this will not protect speakers especially the tweeters. I do recommend since you have many amplifiers at hand to drive each pair of Dali's by different amplifier. This should give you far better result then driving two pairs with one amp. But then is possible the Maratz amp you tested is not oversensitive but is just faulty. Ideally you should try another one before you can condemn the amp to be oversensitive or your Dali's to be a difficult load. The Dali's I understand although they are 4 ohms rated they are easy load, so if they are proving difficult I would check them. A easy way to check them is with a voltmeter. The DC resistance should be around 3-4 ohms. Any less and you should be suspitious. As you have 4 speakers, they should all measure the same, any one measuring different again you should suspitious.

 

[lovemusic]

If an amplifier makes a speaker sound loud that you need to protect your ears this is mostly caused by the amplifier starting distorting badly not because the amplifier is powerful. As your yamaha is only 60W this could be the case. A powerful amplifier will cause the speaker to be stressed as the speaker will start distorting at high power drives. You should be able to differentiate between mechanical distortion caused by overdriven speaker and distortion caused by a weak amplifier that runs out of current and voltage by clipping the signal. Is possible that the Marantz has got a oversensitive protection system that is sensitive to any distorsion and shuts down the amp. The Yamaha protection system if is working does not shut down the amp, but probably just limits the curent delivery to protect the amplifier. Unfortunatelly a nasty protection system like this will not protect speakers especially the tweeters. I do recommend since you have many amplifiers at hand to drive each pair of Dali's by different amplifier. This should give you far better result then driving two pairs with one amp. But then is possible the Maratz amp you tested is not oversensitive but is just faulty. Ideally you should try another one before you can condemn the amp to be oversensitive or your Dali's to be a difficult load. The Dali's I understand although they are 4 ohms rated they are easy load, so if they are proving difficult I would check them. A easy way to check them is with a voltmeter. The DC resistance should be around 3-4 ohms. Any less and you should be suspitious. As you have 4 speakers, they should all measure the same, any one measuring different again you should suspitious.

Great info, thanks very much for your advice.

Just checked the rear pair of Dalis and they measure L= 3.5 ohms R=3.5 ohms. Front set L=3.5 ohms R=3.5 ohms, all exactly the same.

The rear set have not had as much use, so they sound brighter then the front set, fronts have mellowed through extended use.

We are going to upgrade the speaker wire to a larger gauge, they are just running on normal speaker wire, it is new and each length of cable is exactly the same length.

Regards the volume of the Yamaha amp, I understand what you are saying, but I have got damaged ears through too much loud music and clubbing etc. Hubby doesn't find any issues with his ears and the yamaha, it is only me and I've only got it with that amp. He says it is the best sounding amp we have in the house.

We currently have a Yamaha, Sansui high output one, Denon PMA 700 and something, Pioneer A400. I've probably missed a couple, cannot keep up with his hifi stash................

I'll start a new thread about running two amps together.

Thanks for your help everyone

 

[BigH]

I find with reasonable hifi you don't need to have it so loud.

One thing about 2 pairs of speakers there are 2 ways of wiring them, years ago I had 4 speakers and I wired them in series, ie 1 lead from amp to 1st speaker and then onto the 2nd speaker and same on the other channel, is that not a possibility, I understood that was the same resistance as one set of speakers?

 

[lovemusic]

I find with reasonable hifi you don't need to have it so loud.

One thing about 2 pairs of speakers there are 2 ways of wiring them, years ago I had 4 speakers and I wired them in series, ie 1 lead from amp to 1st speaker and then onto the 2nd speaker and same on the other channel, is that not a possibility, I understood that was the same resistance as one set of speakers?

Thanks, I know what you are saying about loud music, I just like loud music sometimes, well most of the time actually lol. Wiring the speakers in series is a possibility but we thought we would loose clarity.

 

[BigH]

Not sure about clarity, hoping some experts would be able to advise on that, as I say it was a long time ago (over 30 years) and seemed to work then.

" It sounds excellent with George Michael Ladies and Gentlemen, but rubbish with many other CD's."

As for comment about cd player I would say yes definately it can make a big difference, as I have plenty of late 50s jazz cds it was one thing I was careful about when buying my last cd player, I got the Marantz 63SE which was excellent, not too revealing but natural sounding, along with a fairly sweet sounding amp. Arcam Alpha 3 sonded great to my ears. I tried various others like the Arcam cd but it did not sound right which was surprising given great reviews etc. Best to have an audition, but music like Dire Straits and Eagles should be OK? I always take some less than perfect recordings along, like Little Feat, it is amazing how some items are tripped up, I remember playing Van Morrison with some Wharfedale speakers and it sounded excellent but put on Little Feat with opening bass guitar and they were reduced to jelly and that was at low volumn, guy in shop said he had never heard that before, so got some Missions in the end.

 

[toyota man]

I find with reasonable hifi you don't need to have it so loud.

One thing about 2 pairs of speakers there are 2 ways of wiring them, years ago I had 4 speakers and I wired them in series, ie 1 lead from amp to 1st speaker and then onto the 2nd speaker and same on the other channel, is that not a possibility, I understood that was the same resistance as one set of speakers?

Hi Lovemusic you should change your name to Love Loud Music

Thanks, I know what you are saying about loud music, I just like loud music sometimes, well most of the time actually lol. Wiring the speakers in series is a possibility but we thought we would loose clarity.

 

[Covenanter]

There seems to be some confusion here.

If you wire things (speakers etc) in series you are effectively adding their impedances together. So it you wire two 6 ohm speakers in series you effectively get one 12 ohm load for your amplifier. (With the huge caveat that loudspeakers aren't just resistive loads and you will get all types of phase effect by doing this and it isn't to be recommended at all.)

If you wire things in parallel (which is what I think the OP suggests was being done), ie two speakers both wired to the same amplifier output, you will reduce the impedance of the load. It's a more complicated equation but if they are identical and there are two of them you will halve the load, so two 6 ohm speakers will produce a 3 ohm load. If this load is less then the minumum that your amplifier is specified for it will potentially try to pull more current out of the amplifier than it is designed to do and it will fail in some way and potentially you could burn out the output stages of the amplifier. DON'T DO THIS!!!

There is nothing wrong with the Marantz as you describe what has been happening. You have just given it the wrong load. It's nothing to do with power at all!

If you really want to have 4 speakers (I've no idea why you want to use 4 speakers when presumably you are listening to stereo recordings which are designed for 2 speakers) then you will need an amplifier that is specified to drive a 3 ohm load. Power is another matter and you need as much as you need to get to the listening level you want. I've got the Marantz and can't imagine needing more power than it generates and I've never turned it up above 11 o'clock. However I know that people do listen to music at levels that I would find unbearable.

Chris

PS This link explains serial and parallel wiring:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits

 

[BigH]

What sort of speakers do you have? I know they are Dalis but are they same size? Small speakers, floorstanders? Dalis make a range of speakers for bookselves upwards, having read a review of their bookself ones I will add it to my list of demos ones to hear.

 

[dumbledore]

Connecting the speakers in series, thinking about, it may be worth a try. Obviously the amplifier will not be stressed and it will only distort at high volumes when it runs out of voltage. Now as the speakers are supposed to be the same connectig them in series will make no difference if they exactly the same. But then they cannot be exactly the same. This is not necessary undesirable. I think the effect will be that the speakers will sound like they are driven by an amplifier with less damping (i.e. like a valve amplifier). If you are still worried, you could even add to each speker a 8ohm resistance (10W) in parallel when you connect them in series. In this way you still keep the overall impedance above 4 ohms which will still be easy to drive. Ofcourse in this setup the sound levels achieved by a 60W amplifier will be modest but at least you know if the sound is acceptable to you.

 

[lovemusic]

Thanks everyone

Yep, I should change my user name to loveLOUDmusic lol.

Right in the last hour things have changed.................tut tut. Hubby decided to sneak out while I was cleaning and came back with a Yamaha AS500!!! Following it tomorrow is a Marantz CD6004!!! Will it work, Goodness only knows, he's currently pulling all the furniture out to measure up for some more beefy speaker wire :roll:

In answer to a couple of the above posts,

The speakers are floorstanders BIG floorstanders Dali 505. There's two matched pairs rated at 4ohms each. Having checked them they are actually 3.5ohms each, all the same.

He likes four speakers because it gives a greater effect to sound surrounding you in our room (It does sound good with two though) He wants 4!! Men lol.

If this doesn't work he will have to just use one set and like it lol..........................

 

[lovemusic]

CRACKED IT

The Yamaha AS500 is perfect for us and to our ears in our lounge, is way better than the Marantz PM6004 sounded and that was great but this is outstanding. Really pleased he came back with that amp now, I wouldn't mind we nearly purchased it the first time round but went with the Marantz instead.

Just got to pick up the Marantz CD6004 tomorrow, hope that will pair nicely with the Yamaha.

Thanks for all your help everyone :rockout:

 

[PAULCHRISTOPHER]

Hi I have just joined the forum and I have a similar situation to the couple above but have had no problems and if I had i would just switch off the rear speakers I have posted in another section which was relevant but not used since August post So if you will bear with me I will copy my post to here in full:-

Hi. Just joined the forum. Posting this here as it seems appropriate. I have just bought the Marantz PM6004 amplifier and the CD6004 CD Player.

These have replaced a Technics SUVZ220 (30watts per channel) amplifier with an irreplaceable volume control board. Curry's Partmaster say they are no longer available. Also replaced Cambridge Audio D100 CD Player. Not a complete HI FI Buff but made some valve amplifiers and speaker cabinets in the 60's . You haven't lived until you have blown up (sheet of flames) a speaker with Deep Purple in Rock on full volume in your box room bedroom!

Present set up is now:-

Technics SL- BD22 Turntable with MM cartridge (Belts & styli still available).

Old Aiwa FM/AM Tuner

Old Sony Twin Cassette Deck

Marantz PM6004 Amplifier

Marantz CD6004 CD Player

Mordaunt & Short 20i(Pearl I think) at the front

Mordaunt & Short 10i at the rear.

The set up is in a 12 Foot X 18 Foot lounge and sounds superb.

The 15 year old speakers are 4 to 8 ohm say average impedance 6 ohms

Two sets used (switchable) therefore overall average impedance 3 ohms .

PM6004 4 to 16 ohms. DOH! Have long cables , don,t know whether this affects it.

Dealer says should be OK as only to be used on up to 40% full volume and PM 6004 as a thermal cut out.

No problems at all up to now. Initial impression was lack of bass on CD’s but that has come back when run in.

The pre-amp stage for vinyl is really superb. Very good bass .Much better than the Technics.

Vinyil and CD’s very good mid range. I am not looking to replace the speakers in the next year unless I blow them up of course but this is the logical upgrade in due course.

Music tastes :Classical ,Opera, Jazz, & Vintage Rock & Pop.

Any comments fellow forum members or should I just keep taking the tablets!

Paul

 

[dumbledore]

MS10i and MS20i speakers are 8 ohm nominal impedance so compared to the Dali's 4 ohms they are easy load. So the maratz amp can drive them in parallel and you don't seem to experiece any issues. Also longer cables make the nominal impedance larger which in term make the load easier for the amplifier. However, running two speakers per channel is a compromise as the amplifiers usually struggle to handle just one speaker at a time. How big that compromise is you will not know unless you try the same setup with two amps.

 

[PAULCHRISTOPHER]

Thanks for that. I always thought that the Mordaunt & Shorts were 8 ohm, but in various internet seaches they come up as 4 to 8 ohm. Going back a few decades! good quality Hi - Fi speakers were usually 15 ohms whilst record players had 3 ohm. In my opinion the speakers also have to be matched to the room and these possibly with 15 years of living with them are matched. The front speakers are on the long side of the room (it should be the other way round) on shelves 4 foot 6 inches off the ground whilst the rear speakers are a couple of feet higher on wall mounted stands so that the main focus of the sound is not directly opposite.For those who don't know why one would have 4 speakers in one room the difference in llistening to a Puccini opera say is like being on the stage not in the auditorium. So to sum up the PM6004 is fine driving 4 bookshelf speakers but not 4 big floorstanders which with the right impedance would be better served by the PM 8004.

PS I don't think my neighbours would be too impressed with me getting a second amplifier as I live in a terrace!