Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

[lovemusic]

Hi everyone, I'm new here, thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

In brief, my Hubby and I, are both bonkers about music and between us we've had that much hifi stuff we cannot remember all of it lol.

Yesterday we decided we would buy a brand new Marantz PM6004 amp and the matching CD6004 cd player to upgrade from the Yamaha amp and matching cd player we were using in our lounge. Prior to these purchases we usually run vintage stuff. We currently have various amps and hifi stuff along with speakers etc, we just wanted to get a bit more clarity, so decided on the Marantz for that room.

We setup with PM6004 and CD6004 to run with our two pairs of matching Dali 505 speakers. Sounded great however, when we tried to listen to the system at around the 10-11 am position on the volume control, the amp kept going in to mute mode, turning the volume control down to zero and then resetting to play after several sections (but with the volume at zero) We understand that the Marantz has a protection system on it, but surely it cannot be that sensitive to the 4ohm speakers we have can it? Wasn't really loud at that volume, but if we put on the loudness or a bit more bass it knocked out sooner.

There's nothing wrong with our speakers, they've been used on various amps, large and small without any problems. The speaker wire is new however it is just speaker wire, nothing fancy. Although, we've never had a problem before with using that type of wire on any of our gear.

We talked to the Hifi store and they suggested a bigger amp, we were refunded for the two Marantz items and we are back to square one. Not really fancying anymore Marantz gear if this could happen again.

Back to running our four Dali 505's and our Yamaha AX396 and Yamaha CDX480. OK, old stuff that isn't high value but is OK. We would like something with more clarity/detail though, hence the Marantz purchase.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[toyota man]

Hi everyone, I'm new here, thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

In brief, my Hubby and I, are both bonkers about music and between us we've had that much hifi stuff we cannot remember all of it lol.

Yesterday we decided we would buy a brand new Marantz PM6004 amp and the matching CD6004 cd player to upgrade from the Yamaha amp and matching cd player we were using in our lounge. Prior to these purchases we usually run vintage stuff. We currently have various amps and hifi stuff along with speakers etc, we just wanted to get a bit more clarity, so decided on the Marantz for that room.

We setup with PM6004 and CD6004 to run with our two pairs of matching Dali 505 speakers. Sounded great however, when we tried to listen to the system at around the 10-11 am position on the volume control, the amp kept going in to mute mode, turning the volume control down to zero and then resetting to play after several sections (but with the volume at zero) We understand that the Marantz has a protection system on it, but surely it cannot be that sensitive to the 4ohm speakers we have can it? Wasn't really loud at that volume, but if we put on the loudness or a bit more bass it knocked out sooner.

There's nothing wrong with our speakers, they've been used on various amps, large and small without any problems. The speaker wire is new however it is just speaker wire, nothing fancy. Although, we've never had a problem before with using that type of wire on any of our gear.

We talked to the Hifi store and they suggested a bigger amp, we were refunded for the two Marantz items and we are back to square one. Not really fancying anymore Marantz gear if this could happen again.

Back to running our four Dali 505's and our Yamaha AX396 and Yamaha CDX480. OK, old stuff that isn't high value but is OK. We would like something with more clarity/detail though, hence the Marantz purchase.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

the problem is due to speaker impedence i don't think the amp is able to run 2 pairs of speakers not much help I know I am sure some one will be able to help with this one :cheers:

 

[lovemusic]

Arhh right, thanks for that. The amp has two sets of speakers ports plus and A and B speaker buttons and the instructions say it can run speakers from 4-16ohms. We specially looked for an amp that would take two sets of speakers. The speaker instructions say they can run on amps from 30 to 150 Watts. I wonder if the two sets combined caused the over-load in some way. Sounded great otherwise, just couldn't lisen at a reasonable volume.

 

[toyota man]

It sounds like maybe you can indeed run 2 pairs of speakers I had a quick look on the net and there was no mention of that feature this would suggest maybe a short or something

 

[lovemusic]

Thanks it is a bit of a puzzler. All we could come up with is that it could be the two pairs of speakers together have dropped this impedance in some way, causing the amps protection to cut in . Or there was a fault with the amplifier. As a test we changed the speaker wire for fresh, made all the wires the same length etc, still it was cutting out. Tried both sets of speakers on together, then one set on, then the other set on etc. This went on into the small hours lol, different types of music as well.

We could have tried it with some of our other speakers, we didn't though, too fed-up that it wouldn't run the intended speakers and didn't want to damage the units or the speakers.

 

[toyota man]

Hi I am sure that some one will know the aswer to your problem but you did all of the things I would have done but you get to the point when enough is enough and you have to call it a day

 

[lovemusic]

Lol, I reached that enough point quite early on with this amp! I said take the amp off the system and box it back up and talk to the shop, after about two hours. Hubby tried to not be beaten, more patients than me lol. It sounded so nice and it was hard to believe we couldn't get it to run, so he tried not to give up on it. After talking to the shop staff, they suggested the only thing to do was to buy a larger amp.

After all, it really got my goat when it cut off at the start of the bass section of the live Hotel California track, one of my all time favourites, will not do lol.

 

[cstanwhf]

The Dali 505 are rated as 4ohms?

If so, if you check the PM6004 specs, when using A+B output to drive 2 pair of speakers, they should be rated at 8 to 16ohms.

So if that is the case, there is nothing wrong with the PM6004.

 

[eggontoast]

Your speakers are 4 ohm impedance and your amplifier will only take one pair of 4 ohm speakers. Two pairs give a load of 2 ohms as the A and B outputs on the amplifier are in parallel. It probably says on the back of the amplifier speaker A + B 8-16 ohms meaning the minimum impedance for both outputs is 8 ohms.

 

[toyota man]

Lol, I reached that enough point quite early on with this amp! I said take the amp off the system and box it back up and talk to the shop, after about two hours. Hubby tried to not be beaten, more patients than me lol. It sounded so nice and it was hard to believe we couldn't get it to run, so he tried not to give up on it. After talking to the shop staff, they suggested the only thing to do was to buy a larger amp.

After all, it really got my goat when it cut off at the start of the bass section of the live Hotel California track, one of my all time favourites, will not do lol.

I mavn't heard the live hotel california I have the original cd release and the vynle i take it this live version is realy gooooood I will have a listen if i can find it Ive got £50 hmv vouchers to spend joy of joy i am just waiting to get a job near a hmv so i can sneak off and do a bit of shopping I often get into hmv norwich buryst edmunds and cambridge and just before christmas i got into nottingham but could not find hmv

 

[lovemusic]

The Dali 505 are rated as 4ohms?

If so, if you check the PM6004 specs, when using A+B output to drive 2 pair of speakers, they should be rated at 8 to 16ohms.

So if that is the case, there is nothing wrong with the PM6004.

Really, thanks for that. We couldn't see that in the Marantz manual. The Marantz manual suggested speakers between 4-16ohms, we also told the shop what we were running and that we would be running two matched pairs before we purchased the amplifier, we even took a pair of the speakers in with us to test the amp on. Shame we didn't know that. Even so, if that is the case, this wasn't the amplifier for us, we don't want to give up a pair of speakers.

That wouldn't explain that fact that we could get the amp to cut out with just one set of speakers on it though.

 

[lovemusic]

Your speakers are 4 ohm impedance and your amplifier will only take one pair of 4 ohm speakers. Two pairs give a load of 2 ohms as the A and B outputs on the amplifier are in parallel. It probably says on the back of the amplifier speaker A + B 8-16 ohms meaning the minimum impedance for both outputs is 8 ohms.

Thanks, just seen your post. That would explain it, I only wish this had come to light before we bought the amplifier. We thought we had covered all the bases with checking the amp and speakers and checking with the shop prior to purchase and even testing the speakers. Looks like I should have downloaded the instructions manual before purchase.

Any suggestions for how we managed to get the unit to cut out with just one pair of speakers on?

 

[lovemusic]

Lol, I reached that enough point quite early on with this amp! I said take the amp off the system and box it back up and talk to the shop, after about two hours. Hubby tried to not be beaten, more patients than me lol. It sounded so nice and it was hard to believe we couldn't get it to run, so he tried not to give up on it. After talking to the shop staff, they suggested the only thing to do was to buy a larger amp.

After all, it really got my goat when it cut off at the start of the bass section of the live Hotel California track, one of my all time favourites, will not do lol.

I mavn't heard the live hotel california I have the original cd release and the vynle i take it this live version is realy gooooood I will have a listen if i can find it Ive got £50 hmv vouchers to spend joy of joy i am just waiting to get a job near a hmv so i can sneak off and do a bit of shopping I often get into hmv norwich buryst edmunds and cambridge and just before christmas i got into nottingham but could not find hmv

You've not lived if you've not heard the live version of Hotel California lol, don't know which live version we have though, it is an extended with lots of bass at the beginning. That and the Boys of Summer, another must have Don Henley for me!

 

[cstanwhf]

Your speakers are 4 ohm impedance and your amplifier will only take one pair of 4 ohm speakers. Two pairs give a load of 2 ohms as the A and B outputs on the amplifier are in parallel. It probably says on the back of the amplifier speaker A + B 8-16 ohms meaning the minimum impedance for both outputs is 8 ohms.

Thanks, just seen your post. That would explain it, I only wish this had come to light before we bought the amplifier. We thought we had covered all the bases with checking the amp and speakers and checking with the shop prior to purchase and even testing the speakers. Looks like I should have downloaded the instructions manual before purchase.

Any suggestions for how we managed to get the unit to cut out with just one pair of speakers on?

The information is written on the back of the PM6004 amp.

Just as you should see this on the back of your Yamaha amp(where the swich for the impedance is).

When testing just one pair of Dali 505, you did remove the other spare pair of speaker cable right? Since the speakers are single wired.

If left connected and the other end touches something conductive or each other, the protection circuit will activate too.

And you did disengage one of the speaker output by pressing the speaker A or B button on the front of the PM6004?

If not, it is still rated as 8 to 16ohms per output.

Anyway, you have returned the PM6004.

Try to look for an amp with higher output (the PM6004 is 45W, your current Yamaha is 60W) and higher current delivery.

 

[toyota man]

Just put Hotel california on I never noticed the bass before mind you I haven't listen to it for years :cheers: :cheers: :dance:

 

[lovemusic]

Hey, I just love the bass at the beginning before the singing starts, more on the live version we have than the normal LP version. It doesn't sound the same on other speakers we have on our other setups, just has a lovely deep echo on the Dalis, sounded brilliant on the PM6004 too, a bit better than the Yamaha we are now back to for the time being.

 

[Mooly]

As others correctly say, this is an impedance issue. However it goes deeper than that because impedance isn't a constant figure but one that varies according to the frequency of the applied signal. A nominal four ohm speaker may well have a minimum impedance lower than the stated nominal figure. perhaps as low as 3 ohm (or lower). For example the B&W 703 is a nominal 8 ohm design with an impedance minima of 3 ohm.

The bottom line is that you need an amplifier capable of far more substantial current delivery.

 

[Blackdawn]

The Marantz PM6004 is a fairly low powered budget amp. I'm not suprised you couldn't use it to play many speakers with the low impedance.

I would suggest you look at getting an amplifier with a pre out and then get a power amp separately (Rotel or NAD).

 

[lovemusic]

Your speakers are 4 ohm impedance and your amplifier will only take one pair of 4 ohm speakers. Two pairs give a load of 2 ohms as the A and B outputs on the amplifier are in parallel. It probably says on the back of the amplifier speaker A + B 8-16 ohms meaning the minimum impedance for both outputs is 8 ohms.

Thanks, just seen your post. That would explain it, I only wish this had come to light before we bought the amplifier. We thought we had covered all the bases with checking the amp and speakers and checking with the shop prior to purchase and even testing the speakers. Looks like I should have downloaded the instructions manual before purchase.

Any suggestions for how we managed to get the unit to cut out with just one pair of speakers on?

The information is written on the back of the PM6004 amp.

Just as you should see this on the back of your Yamaha amp(where the swich for the impedance is).

When testing just one pair of Dali 505, you did remove the other spare pair of speaker cable right? Since the speakers are single wired.

If left connected and the other end touches something conductive or each other, the protection circuit will activate too.

And you did disengage one of the speaker output by pressing the speaker A or B button on the front of the PM6004?

If not, it is still rated as 8 to 16ohms per output.

Anyway, you have returned the PM6004.

Try to look for an amp with higher output (the PM6004 is 45W, your current Yamaha is 60W) and higher current delivery.

Many thanks for your help

We just tested it via the A and B switch. Both sets on via the A+B together. One set on, say A set, then B set on its own, then both sets etc. We left both sets connected, didn't test by actually removing a set phyiscally both were left on the system. Didn't think to actually take a set off the actual amp, wouldn't have just taken the speakers off and left the wires on, like you say, that would have activated the protection system if it touched anything.

The amp sounded great, the cd player was great too, mind you we already have a Marantz CD player on another system and that's great as well. We had to fit a new CD tray gear but still going strong and wouldn't change it.

The PM6004 sounded brilliant just what we were looking for it really was, hubby won't give up a pair of the Dali's though, he likes running four speakers. I wish we had tried just running two speaker now (by actually removing the other pair physically including the cables rather than just hitting the A and B) Mind you, that would have been pointless, parting him from the dali's is impossible (I've tried lol)

We will make sure to actually physically check the back of an amp before we buy another amp now. All our current amps are high powered, our Yamaha at 60 watts is the lowest powered amp we currently have.

Thanks very much for your help

 

[eggontoast]

Your speakers are 4 ohm impedance and your amplifier will only take one pair of 4 ohm speakers. Two pairs give a load of 2 ohms as the A and B outputs on the amplifier are in parallel. It probably says on the back of the amplifier speaker A + B 8-16 ohms meaning the minimum impedance for both outputs is 8 ohms.

Thanks, just seen your post. That would explain it, I only wish this had come to light before we bought the amplifier. We thought we had covered all the bases with checking the amp and speakers and checking with the shop prior to purchase and even testing the speakers. Looks like I should have downloaded the instructions manual before purchase.

Any suggestions for how we managed to get the unit to cut out with just one pair of speakers on?

The 4 ohm rating is a nominal value so the impedance will vary with frequency and dip below 4 ohms. If you start running the amplifier fairly loud ie from the 10 o'clock position up, the amplifier is going to be nearly running at full output. 45 watts is not particularly loud so the amplifiers over current sensor will be triggering even with one set of speakers. You would be better off with an amplifier with pre-outs then run one set of speakers from the integrated amp and the other from a matching power amp fed from the pre-outs.

 

[lovemusic]

As others correctly say, this is an impedance issue. However it goes deeper than that because impedance isn't a constant figure but one that varies according to the frequency of the applied signal. A nominal four ohm speaker may well have a minimum impedance lower than the stated nominal figure. perhaps as low as 3 ohm (or lower). For example the B&W 703 is a nominal 8 ohm design with an impedance minima of 3 ohm.

The bottom line is that you need an amplifier capable of far more substantial current delivery.

Cheers, seems that way

Now beginning the search for an amplifier that can handle the four speakers. Thanks.

 

[toyota man]

I am realy enjoying this album I should have put it on ages ago to busy listening to the black keys yes black country communion roger chapman led zep the answer richard thompson the eels etc I hope some one will give you a suggestion as to which amp to go for you could try the m6i but its a bit expensive compaired to the marantz I have just bought my son a marantz 6003 cdp and an audiolab 8000a amp to go with my old mission 752 speakers you might find an amp on the bay another member Record Spot is always buying amps that may be up to the job I am sure when he see's your post he will make some suggestions

 

[lovemusic]

Your speakers are 4 ohm impedance and your amplifier will only take one pair of 4 ohm speakers. Two pairs give a load of 2 ohms as the A and B outputs on the amplifier are in parallel. It probably says on the back of the amplifier speaker A + B 8-16 ohms meaning the minimum impedance for both outputs is 8 ohms.

Thanks, just seen your post. That would explain it, I only wish this had come to light before we bought the amplifier. We thought we had covered all the bases with checking the amp and speakers and checking with the shop prior to purchase and even testing the speakers. Looks like I should have downloaded the instructions manual before purchase.

Any suggestions for how we managed to get the unit to cut out with just one pair of speakers on?

The 4 ohm rating is a nominal value so the impedance will vary with frequency and dip below 4 ohms. If you start running the amplifier fairly loud ie from the 10 o'clock position up, the amplifier is going to be nearly running at full output. 45 watts is not particularly loud so the amplifiers over current sensor will be triggering even with one set of speakers. You would be better off with an amplifier with pre-outs then run one set of speakers from the integrated amp and the other from a matching power amp fed from the pre-outs.

Great advice many thanks. I don't understand what you mean lol, Hubby does though. Sounds expensive though lol, I think we really do need to do some further research. Currently even though our Yamaha amp 60 watts runs these two sets of speakers without any problems even louder than we can listen to it lol, it isn't cutting it with sound quality, not crisp/detailed enough for us. Our current budget is only £600 so we are limited. Unless we buy secondhand gear, or don't buy outright and buy on credit say.

 

[lovemusic]

I am realy enjoying this album I should have put it on ages ago to busy listening to the black keys yes black country communion roger chapman led zep the answer richard thompson the eels etc I hope some one will give you a suggestion as to which amp to go for you could try the m6i but its a bit expensive compaired to the marantz I have just bought my son a marantz 6003 cdp and an audiolab 8000a amp to go with my old mission 752 speakers you might find an amp on the bay another member Record Spot is always buying amps that may be up to the job I am sure when he see's your post he will make some suggestions

Lol, you've got varied music taste like us. Most people laugh at my music taste, one minute I'm classical next clubbing, bit of this bit of that...........ELO super, PM6004 loved ELO in our lounge. Then trance......................you name it I'll listen to it lol.

I'm hoping someone will come up with a replacement suggestion as well, Hubby wanted to by-wire two amps one for each set of speakers! I wasn't keen on that Idea. We have various amps, so no shortage to try. He wanted to run our Pioneer A400 with the Yamaha, I wasn't up for that idea, I still didn't think it would be good enough for my ears, mind you, I like my music quite loud, too much clubbing in my pre 40 years lol..

We don't mind buying second hand, all our current gear is second hand.

 

[lovemusic]

Thanks everyone All is clear now.

So, as much as we liked the PM6004 it wouldn't run our two sets of Dali 505's and I now understand why, thanks So because Hubby won't part with his Dalis at this point in time, we need a more powerful amp.

You guessed it, has anyone got any suggestions please? We don't mind 2nd hand, or new but our budget is not very big at the mo, £600 ish, can change but not at the moment.

We have other amps, a high powered Sansui, but I'm not overly keen on it, a Pioneer A400 amp again, I'm not keen because you cannot change the bass and trebble and it doesn't match the Dalis very much in my opinion. A Denon, but that is on another system in one of our bedrooms at the moment and that sounds better with the Mordaunt Shorts and Keffs and even the Sansui speakers, doesn't seem to like the Dalis. Seems we have trouble trying to match an amp to the Dalis we have, the PM6004 did sound great though, shame. I suggested getting rid of the Dalis, divorce would probably follow though lol.

Should I start a new thread for suggestions? Thanks.