Luddite has DAC Questions, Bafflement

[admin_exported]

Hullo all, first post here!

Recently I upgraded my computer and monitor to post Charles Babbage engine standards, and am mighty pleased. I'm still playing music through the ancient Logitech speakers though, which seems remarkably stupid considering I'm a music librarian with a rapidly expanding collection of classical, folk, Americana, blues, country and um, well everything, really.

Anyway, I'm thinking of getting a DAC for my Windows 7 PC. Cambridge DacMagic looks intriguing but the fact that it doesn't have a headphone socket is a bit of a jolter. The Beresford TC-7510 one is quite tempting owing to its price and the headphone option. Then there's the Marantz CD5003 which looks good as it seems to be a combined CD/DAC - if I've understood thing's right?

So - questions, as I'm new to all this and alarmingly ignorant:

1: DAC hooks up to PC via USB, bypassing soundcard right? I have a 7.1 HighDefinition Onboard one, so does the fact that it's an intergrated sound card chip thing makes as little difference than a super-soundcard would?

2: Does the DAC need an amp to hook up to, or does it take care of that side? I believe there is one that has a pre-amp built in (I think it's the DacMagic) but I don't know if it's standard. Or can I plug the speakers options below straight into the DAC?

3: What budget (£50 - £150) speakers would you recommend? I'm thinking Tannoy or Q Acoustics, or Wharfdale. There's a chance owing to space limitations that these might be stuck underneath the (stop crying back there!) computer desk, but I reckon I might be able to fit some small stand based ones on either side of the room.

4: Reckon if the DAC needs a pre-amp I'll go for the Cambridge Audio A1, as it seems pretty cheap but rather good.

Probably going to Richer Sounds for this lot, there being a branch in Cardiff, but may shop around. Anyway, thanks for any help coming, sorry if this is all depressingly easy for you to answer, but I become slightly paralysed when reading What-HiFi on my library tea breaks, and haven't been able to find a handy DAC guide in their back issues. Can't wait to get a good setup though, and really enjoy my fave three pieces of music - Vaughan Williams' Thomas Tallis Theme on Fantasia, Angelo Badalementi's 'Lauren's Walking' from The Straight Story and John Cale's cover of Frozen Warnings. Great forum, by the way!

Oh, and Flaming Lips.

Ta,

Pete

 

[Andrew Everard]

1. Yes, correct, unless the PC has a dedicated optical digital output, which may sound even better.

1a. And given that you have a 7.1 card as standard, chances are an offboard stereo DAC will sound much much better.

2. Yes, you need an amplifier, or active speakers (which have their own amps built-in). Even DACs with an onboard preamp (which the Cambridge doesn't) will need a power amplifier to drive conventional speakers, or active speakers.

3. Any of those brands will be suitable, but again they will need an amp. An alternative would be some active speakers, such as the AudioEngine A2s

4. See 2. above

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Nervous Pete:

Hullo all, first post here!

Recently I upgraded my computer and monitor to post Charles Babbage engine standards, and am mighty pleased. I'm still playing music through the ancient Logitech speakers though, which seems remarkably stupid considering I'm a music librarian with a rapidly expanding collection of classical, folk, Americana, blues, country and um, well everything, really.

Anyway, I'm thinking of getting a DAC for my Windows 7 PC. Cambridge DacMagic looks intriguing but the fact that it doesn't have a headphone socket is a bit of a jolter. The Beresford TC-7510 one is quite tempting owing to its price and the headphone option. Then there's the Marantz CD5003 which looks good as it seems to be a combined CD/DAC - if I've understood thing's right?

So - questions, as I'm new to all this and alarmingly ignorant:

1: DAC hooks up to PC via USB, bypassing soundcard right? I have a 7.1 HighDefinition Onboard one, so does the fact that it's an intergrated sound card chip thing makes as little difference than a super-soundcard would?

2: Does the DAC need an amp to hook up to, or does it take care of that side? I believe there is one that has a pre-amp built in (I think it's the DacMagic) but I don't know if it's standard. Or can I plug the speakers options below straight into the DAC?

3: What budget (£50 - £150) speakers would you recommend? I'm thinking Tannoy or Q Acoustics, or Wharfdale. There's a chance owing to space limitations that these might be stuck underneath the (stop crying back there!) computer desk, but I reckon I might be able to fit some small stand based ones on either side of the room.

4: Reckon if the DAC needs a pre-amp I'll go for the Cambridge Audio A1, as it seems pretty cheap but rather good.

Probably going to Richer Sounds for this lot, there being a branch in Cardiff, but may shop around. Anyway, thanks for any help coming, sorry if this is all depressingly easy for you to answer, but I become slightly paralysed when reading What-HiFi on my library tea breaks, and haven't been able to find a handy DAC guide in their back issues. Can't wait to get a good setup though, and really enjoy my fave three pieces of music - Vaughan Williams' Thomas Tallis Theme on Fantasia, Angelo Badalementi's 'Lauren's Walking' from The Straight Story and John Cale's cover of Frozen Warnings. Great forum, by the way!

Oh, and Flaming Lips.

Ta,

Pete

All cd players are cd/dac combined. The DAC in the cd player converts the digital media from the cd into analogue to pass through to an amp. Most cd players under the £1k mark don't allow you (don't have a digital input) to utilise the DAC part of the cd player for other sources (like computer). This is the reason many people are buying (external) DACs like the Beresford and DacMagic. You don't need a pre-amp if you buy a Beresford or DacMagic (as long as you have an integrated amp). If you buy a DAC and use speakers like the Wharfedale Diamonds for instance, you will have a much much better sound than you have now.

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:

1. Yes, correct, unless the PC has a dedicated optical digital output, which may sound even better.

Ta for the tips. A good friend has suggested his old Sound Blaster Extigy card that has a dedicated digital output, natch. (USB connected, external job.) So I'll team that up with a Cambridge Audio 340A amp and some Tannoy F1 Customs from Richer Sounds and see what happens. If the card don't cut the mustard, I can always expand from there if need be. Would that serve you reckon, or would I need anything else?

 

[Anonymous]

B'oh! Wait a sec, just checked the 340A and it doesn't have a digitial input, so no joy there. Any good budget DAC ready amps out there? Bonus points if Richer Sounds stocks 'em.

 

[John Duncan]

Nervous Pete:Any good budget DAC ready amps out there?

No, none.

Pete, I think you were on the right lines in your previous post - a good quality soundcard in your PC will often be enough if you're using modest electronics and speakers (not to diss the Cambridge and Tannoy, which are very good). I'd try your mate's sound card first (it will have normal analogue outputs as well as a digital one) without a DAC, and see how it sounds. You can always get a DAC later, but personally I;d be looking at getting better amp and speakers before I was looking for a DAC.

 

[Anonymous]

JohnDuncan:Nervous Pete:Any good budget DAC ready amps out there? No, none. Pete, I think you were on the right lines in your previous post - a good quality soundcard in your PC will often be enough if you're using modest electronics and speakers (not to diss the Cambridge and Tannoy, which are very good). I'd try your mate's sound card first (it will have normal analogue outputs as well as a digital one) without a DAC, and see how it sounds. You can always get a DAC later, but personally I;d be looking at getting better amp and speakers before I was looking for a DAC.

Cool, the only thing that concerns me then is can the AMP be hooked up to the external soundcard? Does it need digital output/input compatability? Because I'm finding it tricky judging whether any of cambridge budget amps on Richer Sounds can do that.

Also, all this research is unfortunately combined with a hangover. Oogh.

 

[Alec]

No, the amp doesnt need digital conections, i think the connections should go like this:

Soundcard > digital cable* > DAC > analogue cable** > amp.

* Optical interconnect

** Analogue/RCA/Phono interconnect

 

[John Duncan]

Where the bit in brackets is optional.

Soundcard [> digital cable* > DAC] > analogue cable** > amp.

* Optical interconnect

** Analogue/RCA/Phono interconnect

Most soundcards have a 3.5mm jack stereo output, so you can take a jack-to-2xRCA cable from soundcard to amp. You can add the DAC later, taking digital out from soundcard to DAC, then a pair of interconnects from DAC to amp.

 

[PJPro]

If you're strapped for cash, go with John's advice and get a DAC when funds allow.

 

[Alec]

JohnDuncan:Where the bit in brackets is optional.

Soundcard [> digital cable* > DAC] > analogue cable** > amp.

* Optical interconnect

** Analogue/RCA/Phono interconnect

Most soundcards have a 3.5mm jack stereo output, so you can take a jack-to-2xRCA cable from soundcard to amp. You can add the DAC later, taking digital out from soundcard to DAC, then a pair of interconnects from DAC to amp.

Good point well made. sorry Pete, i hadnt accounted for the non DAC route. John and PJ are right tho, its unessential in a setup designed to get you on your way.

 

[Anonymous]

Ahh, so the choice is...

[Soundcard]--RCA cable----[AMP]----RCA cable----[Speaker]

Or for slightly/mucho better sound:

[Soundcard]---Digi-cable---[DAC]---RCA cable----[AMP]---RCA cable---[Speaker]

Think I will get just the soundcard and the AMP and the speakers, and then upgrade to the DAC in the future if need be, hopefully with a returns policy test run.

Reckon I'll start off with this then -

http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/cambridge-audio/azur-340ase-graded/camb-340a-se-sil-grd

Or

http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/cambridge-audio/azur-540a-v2-graded/camb-540a-v2-sil-grd

And

http://www.richersounds.com/product/bookshelf-speakers/tannoy/f1-custom/tann-custom-f1

Should be lush!

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Nervous Pete:Ahh, so the choice is...

[Soundcard]--RCA cable----[AMP]----RCA cable----[Speaker]

Or for slightly/mucho better sound:

[Soundcard]---Digi-cable---[DAC]---RCA cable----[AMP]---RCA cable---[Speaker]

Think I will get just the soundcard and the AMP and the speakers, and then upgrade to the DAC in the future if need be, hopefully with a returns policy test run.

Reckon I'll start off with this then -

http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/cambridge-audio/azur-340ase-graded/camb-340a-se-sil-grd

Or

http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/cambridge-audio/azur-540a-v2-graded/camb-540a-v2-sil-grd

And

http://www.richersounds.com/product/bookshelf-speakers/tannoy/f1-custom/tann-custom-f1

Should be lush!

If you go the DAC route, you don't need a new soundcard - you can just use usb. So computer - USB cable - DAC - RCA cable - amplifier - Speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

Guys

A massive thanks to all-including Pete for asking the right questions. I like these threads but they're quite intimidating to a fellow Luddite. It's great when experts take the time to share their knowledge like this.

 

[Anonymous]

Araum:

Guys

A massive thanks to all-including Pete for asking the right questions. I like these threads but they're quite intimidating to a fellow Luddite. It's great when experts take the time to share their knowledge like this.

Cheers Araum, I got a bit frustrated trying to find the info on the net, and finally figured, why don't I just ask 'em myself? Glad to see you're reaping the rewards too.

Anyway, a friend just suggested that I buy this instead of the amp and DAC, and that it should do for me, it having the digital optical input. Would this be enough plus speakers and soundcard, or would I still need something else? And if I ever felt the craving of a DAC it'd work okay with one, wouldn't it? What are the differences between AV receivers and standard amps for this kind of thing, anyway?

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/cambridge-audio/azur-540r-v3-graded/camb-540r-v3-sil-grd

Sorry about the barrage of relentless questions continuing, you are helping! Things are slowly sinking into my addled brain!

Anyone who suggests a £90 coax cable may find a teapot hurled at their knee, however.

EDIT:

"The 540R even makes a case for itself in stereo. It's not the last word in refinement, complex music becoming a little ragged, but the vim and vigour of the movie reproduction is preserved intact. Soundstaging is plausible, detail levels acceptable, and excitement sometimes palpable. It's not the most soothing of companions, but the 540R v3 is capable of lighting a fire under any film or music you care to play. If that sounds like your kind of thing, dive right in." 4/5

Worth considering then I guess, but my classical may suffer. Shall continue to poke about.

 

[Alec]

Personally i dont see any advantage to it unless you want a home cinema system which will occasionally be used for music. OK, it has a DAC or indeed DACs, but it will be optimised for cinema performance and, at that level, i think you would be better of getting your amp and speakers sorted then getting a dac later. as has been said, a dac is unessential to getting you started, so theres no rush.

 

[Dave_]

What Al7478 said.....

 

[Gerrardasnails]

daveh75:What Al7478 said.....

Yes, no point getting that receiver or any home cinema amp, unless you are going to use it in a 5.1 system.

By the way, I would hardly class us as experts!

I think you should go with this system, which would blow your current system away and will give you a nice start up sound. As it's very cheap, you will be able to upgrade piece by piece. Someone mentioned before that a £200 plus DAC with budget equipment is hardly worth it, I agree but it would give you a nice upgrade path. No need for a soundcard as you can use usb to DAC. Possible DACs are the usual suspects, DacMagic, Beresford and the MF V-Dac. If you went for th DacMagic, your spend would be around £400. The MF V Dac would save you another £80 and the cheapest Beresford would make your spend, approx £350.

http://www.richersounds.com/product/amplifiers-receivers/cambridge-audio/a1-version-3/camb-a1v3-blk

http://www.richersounds.com/product/bookshelf-speakers/wharfedale/diamond-9.1/whar-9.1-rose

 

[The_Lhc]

Just so you've got a little background on these things, the CA540 is an integrated AV amp. The relevant part of that statement is "integrated" this means that it has DACs built into it.

Until fairly recently integrated STEREO amps (ie 2-channel amps with a DAC built in) were few and far between (they weren't really necessary, computer based music hadn't taken off, CD players have their own DACs, everything else is analogue), however with the advent of CBM they're starting to become more popular, although they're still far from the norm.

The suggestions that have been put forward are to use a seperate DAC, with a non-integrated amplifier, so your earlier questions about amps being "digital ready" aren't really relevant as the amp is only dealing with analogue signals (DAC stand for Digital to Analogue but you knew that anyway), the DAC takes the digital signal from the PC, converts it to analogue and passes that from the Amp.

If you were to get an integrated stereo amp then you wouldn't need the seperate DAC as the amp's built in one will do the job for you.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

the_lhc:
Just so you've got a little background on these things, the CA540 is an integrated AV amp. The relevant part of that statement is "integrated" this means that it has DACs built into it.

Until fairly recently integrated STEREO amps (ie 2-channel amps with a DAC built in) were few and far between (they weren't really necessary, computer based music hadn't taken off, CD players have their own DACs, everything else is analogue), however with the advent of CBM they're starting to become more popular, although they're still far from the norm.

The suggestions that have been put forward are to use a seperate DAC, with a non-integrated amplifier, so your earlier questions about amps being "digital ready" aren't really relevant as the amp is only dealing with analogue signals (DAC stand for Digital to Analogue but you knew that anyway), the DAC takes the digital signal from the PC, converts it to analogue and passes that from the Amp.

If you were to get an integrated stereo amp then you wouldn't need the seperate DAC as the amp's built in one will do the job for you.

If you connect the amp to the pc via RCA cables, the DAC in the amp will not be used. The amps the OP is looking to buy do not have a digital inputs so there is no way of accessing the amp's DAC. His conundrum is whether to use the DAC in the computer or to get the digital feed via usb to a DAC and not having to buy a better soundcard with digital outputs.

 

[Alec]

I think things are getting confused now. This is my idea of an integrated amplifier - nothing to do with DACs as far as i can see. Anyway, why build a dac into something and prevent its use? To my mind and AV/home cinema amp is just that, and has DACs, for digital HD audio decoding, and an itegrated amp is a stereo amp as described in the above link.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

al7478:I think things are getting confused now. This is my idea of an integrated amplifier - nothing to do with DACs as far as i can see. Anyway, why build a dac into something and prevent its use? To my mind and AV/home cinema amp is just that, and has DACs, for digital HD audio decoding, and an itegrated amp is a stereo amp as described in the above link.

You have lost me Al, I wasn't talking about the OP using an AV amp. I put links up for what I thought he should buy. I was just saying to lhc that the OP would not be able to use the DAC in a stereo amp.

 

[Anonymous]

I think I'm getting a handle on this now. I wasn't aware of what the 'intergrated' bit in the tech specs actually meant! So the 540 does the job, the price being that it is more geared to the dramatics of film sound to fill a room, rather than the subtleties of reet swanky music. In that case, since I don't have the room for surround sound anyway...

Its looking like I will go for the hi-fi amp and speaker option, connected to via RCA soundcard. I do quite fancy those Tannoy speakers, but the Wharfdale looks good too. Then if the old soundcard doesn't cut the mustard I can always DAC it a month later. Shame the Beresford DAC isn't sold at Richer.

340ASE + Tannoy F1 Custom / Wharfdale 9.1

Not sure which speaker set to go for, will give 'em both a listen to at Richer. I won't be able to give too much space around them, so whichever performs best backed up against something will win through.

Ta for all your help!

 

[The_Lhc]

Gerrardasnails:the_lhc:
Just so you've got a little background on these things, the CA540 is an integrated AV amp. The relevant part of that statement is "integrated" this means that it has DACs built into it.

Until fairly recently integrated STEREO amps (ie 2-channel amps with a DAC built in) were few and far between (they weren't really necessary, computer based music hadn't taken off, CD players have their own DACs, everything else is analogue), however with the advent of CBM they're starting to become more popular, although they're still far from the norm.

The suggestions that have been put forward are to use a seperate DAC, with a non-integrated amplifier, so your earlier questions about amps being "digital ready" aren't really relevant as the amp is only dealing with analogue signals (DAC stand for Digital to Analogue but you knew that anyway), the DAC takes the digital signal from the PC, converts it to analogue and passes that from the Amp.

If you were to get an integrated stereo amp then you wouldn't need the seperate DAC as the amp's built in one will do the job for you.

If you connect the amp to the pc via RCA cables, the DAC in the amp will not be used. The amps the OP is looking to buy do not have a digital inputs so there is no way of accessing the amp's DAC.

Errr, if those amps don't have any digital inputs then they don't HAVE any DACs!

His conundrum is whether to use the DAC in the computer or to get the digital feed via usb to a DAC and not having to buy a better soundcard with digital outputs.

I know but he was asking whether the amps were "digital ready" for use with an external DAC, which is a nonsense question because if you're using an external DAC you're passing an analogue signal to the amp, which doesn't really care where the signal came from.

 

[Alec]

My point was aimed at the_lhc.

Integrated amplifiers have never, to my knowledge, been amps with DACs in, but amps with with preamps and power amps in, as per the link I provided. I have no knowledge of 2 channel amps with DACs in, and itll cause a lot of confusion if they are to be refered to as integrated amps.

Home cinema amps (in my opinion, as i said, a waste of time for the OP) do have DACs in as they have to do more processing than a stereo amp. These, to me, are just home cinema or A/V amps, Ive never heard them refered to as integrated. Ever.

As the_lhc says, tho, it isnt about bypassing DACs in stereo amps as, by and large (or ever, as i thought til today) they dont have them. Whats more, they wouldnt put them in and not give you digital connections. Thats a bit like selling a telly without an "on" button.

This sounds a little more curt(?) than i wanted it to, but its all intended in the best possible taste.