I am not allowed to play my music loud, am I missing out on the performance of my hi fi, = has it got to be played loud to get the best out fo it?
Low volume, am I missing out?
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chebby
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yukdan:I am not allowed to play my music loud, am I missing out on the performance of my hi fi, = has it got to be played loud to get the best out fo it?
Technically, no, not necessarily. It is your ears that are less sensitive to the frequency extremes at low volumes, not the equipment. (This is why some amplifiers have 'loudness' buttons - or DSP in some systems - to boost frequency extremes at low volumes.)
Even Naim (a bastion of 'no tone controls' for almost 40 years) have intoduced a "Switchable bass contour control" for low-volume listening on their new UnitiQute. I guess it is the first time they have made a product that is specifically aimed at small rooms and lower volume listening and coincides with DSP technology that does not introduce distortion on top of signal shaping.
However, if you are not enjoying your system at low volumes then I would recommend headphones.
[Edit] I notice that you have a Rotel RA-04 amplifier. You might try using a little bass and treble 'lift' (one click on each) at low volumes. Remember to switch out the controls if you go back to 'normal' or loud levels.
Technically, no, not necessarily. It is your ears that are less sensitive to the frequency extremes at low volumes, not the equipment. (This is why some amplifiers have 'loudness' buttons - or DSP in some systems - to boost frequency extremes at low volumes.)
Even Naim (a bastion of 'no tone controls' for almost 40 years) have intoduced a "Switchable bass contour control" for low-volume listening on their new UnitiQute. I guess it is the first time they have made a product that is specifically aimed at small rooms and lower volume listening and coincides with DSP technology that does not introduce distortion on top of signal shaping.
However, if you are not enjoying your system at low volumes then I would recommend headphones.
[Edit] I notice that you have a Rotel RA-04 amplifier. You might try using a little bass and treble 'lift' (one click on each) at low volumes. Remember to switch out the controls if you go back to 'normal' or loud levels.
idc
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I don't see a kit list, but another way of subtly boosting the volume is the use attenuators between the CDP and amp. Google Rothwell and Goldenjacks. The attenuation reduces the voltage between CDP and amp and can (not guaranteed) give you more control with the volume. So The sweet spot where details and dynamics come through is bigger. I found my setup sounded louder with the volume at the same level and if you are in the sweet spot I think that louder is better.
And get some headphones!
And get some headphones!
I agree with Chebby, but I'm a firm believer that volume set's your system "free" to express itself. Sadly, I'm in the same situation which is why I'm selling my amp for one which I can do more "tweaking" with. Sacrilege I know, but needs do as needs must.
Agreed. Put that one in for the "purists"; nothing like a good "tweak" for low volume listening or to iron out a rubbish recording.
chebby
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idc:Tone controls are also a godsend to help with late night low volume listening. Removing them was a fashion and that was the sacrilege IMHO.
Yes, and then the manufacturers who jumped on the 'flat earth' bandwagon and removed the tone controls, charged more for the new versions despite needing less components, less wiring, less drilling of holes in fascia plates, less labour for assembly etc. (The reason was economy of scale probably. Only a few customers in one small country in one sales region were daft enough to demand these new minimalist designs so they had to be specially made just for us!)
It was an idiotic phase in British hifi history, dictacted by a few manufacturers (yes I know I have gear from one of them but I still would rather have tone controls on it) and BADA and a few influential dealers and a handful of journalists who were probably having a bit of a giggle rather then genuinely believing they were advancing the cause of audio reproduction. (One of them, now a world famous author, is on record as describing the entire world of 1980s hifi journalism as a huge ####take whilst sitting around playing hundreds of free records and getting free systems! Obviously it is all completely different nowadays.)
Yes, and then the manufacturers who jumped on the 'flat earth' bandwagon and removed the tone controls, charged more for the new versions despite needing less components, less wiring, less drilling of holes in fascia plates, less labour for assembly etc. (The reason was economy of scale probably. Only a few customers in one small country in one sales region were daft enough to demand these new minimalist designs so they had to be specially made just for us!)
It was an idiotic phase in British hifi history, dictacted by a few manufacturers (yes I know I have gear from one of them but I still would rather have tone controls on it) and BADA and a few influential dealers and a handful of journalists who were probably having a bit of a giggle rather then genuinely believing they were advancing the cause of audio reproduction. (One of them, now a world famous author, is on record as describing the entire world of 1980s hifi journalism as a huge ####take whilst sitting around playing hundreds of free records and getting free systems! Obviously it is all completely different nowadays.)
chebby:
idc:Tone controls are also a godsend to help with late night low volume listening. Removing them was a fashion and that was the sacrilege IMHO.
Yes, and then the manufacturers who jumped on the 'flat earth' bandwagon and removed the tone controls, charged more for the new versions despite needing less components, less wiring, less drilling of holes in fascia plates, less labour for assembly etc. (The reason was economy of scale probably. Only a few customers in one small country in one sales region were daft enough to demand these new minimalist designs so they had to be specially made just for us!)
It was an idiotic phase in British hifi history, dictacted by a few manufacturers (yes I know I have gear from one of them but I still would rather have tone controls on it) and BADA and a few influential dealers and a handful of journalists who were probably having a bit of a giggle rather then genuinely believing they were advancing the cause of audio reproduction. (One of them, now a world famous author, is on record as describing the entire world of 1980s hifi journalism as a huge ####take whilst sitting around playing hundreds of free records and getting free systems! Obviously it is all completely different nowadays.)
Sounds like the 80's fad for "nouvelle cuisine" - pay more for less on your plate. A carrot, 2 peas, and a slice of meat for 50 quid.
idc:Tone controls are also a godsend to help with late night low volume listening. Removing them was a fashion and that was the sacrilege IMHO.
Yes, and then the manufacturers who jumped on the 'flat earth' bandwagon and removed the tone controls, charged more for the new versions despite needing less components, less wiring, less drilling of holes in fascia plates, less labour for assembly etc. (The reason was economy of scale probably. Only a few customers in one small country in one sales region were daft enough to demand these new minimalist designs so they had to be specially made just for us!)
It was an idiotic phase in British hifi history, dictacted by a few manufacturers (yes I know I have gear from one of them but I still would rather have tone controls on it) and BADA and a few influential dealers and a handful of journalists who were probably having a bit of a giggle rather then genuinely believing they were advancing the cause of audio reproduction. (One of them, now a world famous author, is on record as describing the entire world of 1980s hifi journalism as a huge ####take whilst sitting around playing hundreds of free records and getting free systems! Obviously it is all completely different nowadays.)
Sounds like the 80's fad for "nouvelle cuisine" - pay more for less on your plate. A carrot, 2 peas, and a slice of meat for 50 quid.
If hi fi is defined as the realism by which is presents the recorded source, then volume is pretty critical! A drum kit is b****y loud even when played gently. Its arguably unimportant how it sounds at quiet levels, as it simply isn't realistic anyway and is already a huge compromise.
You're only missing out at low volume if you feel you are. If you're enjoying the music then no, you're not. The Sugden Mystro CDP and Amp are pretty impressive at low volumes by the way.
chebby
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SteveR750:If hi fi is defined as the realism by which is presents the recorded source, then volume is pretty critical! A drum kit is b****y loud even when played gently. Its arguably unimportant how it sounds at quiet levels, as it simply isn't realistic anyway and is already a huge compromise.
So when you take a photograph of a Skyscaper you expect the print to be over 1000 ft high?
When you watch a BluRay you not only expect 3D but you want all the people to be lifesize and the cars to be lifesize and the explosions and bullets to actually be lethal?
A simply recorded acoustic guitar is near impossible for even the most powerful hifi to reproduce exactly to live scale and volume. (I have heard a £20,000 Krell system - in 1980s money - fail dismally at this task.) Good luck with a full orchestra + organ + choir.
So when you take a photograph of a Skyscaper you expect the print to be over 1000 ft high?
When you watch a BluRay you not only expect 3D but you want all the people to be lifesize and the cars to be lifesize and the explosions and bullets to actually be lethal?
A simply recorded acoustic guitar is near impossible for even the most powerful hifi to reproduce exactly to live scale and volume. (I have heard a £20,000 Krell system - in 1980s money - fail dismally at this task.) Good luck with a full orchestra + organ + choir.
i dont get these suggestions re. tone controls , volume is volume , no ? if you can only listen at certain volumes , then bar turning up the , er , volume , or by getting a louder sound by using tone controls (which basically means indirectly turning up the volume) how can it be done ?
chebby
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maxflinn:i dont get these suggestions re. tone controls , volume is volume , no ? if you can only listen at certain volumes , then bar turning up the , er , volume , or by getting a louder sound by using tone controls (which basically means indirectly turning up the volume) how can it be done ?
Tone controls don't turn up the volume.
Volume turns up volume.
At low levels our ears are less sensitive to frequency extremes. (They naturally retain sensitivity in the midrange because our ears have evolved to hear human voice frequencies best even at low levels.)
So that is why manufacturers introduced a 'loudness' contour to compensate for this at low volumes. Similar compensation can be achieved with use of the bass and treble to 'even' things out a bit.
Tone controls don't turn up the volume.
Volume turns up volume.
At low levels our ears are less sensitive to frequency extremes. (They naturally retain sensitivity in the midrange because our ears have evolved to hear human voice frequencies best even at low levels.)
So that is why manufacturers introduced a 'loudness' contour to compensate for this at low volumes. Similar compensation can be achieved with use of the bass and treble to 'even' things out a bit.
chebby:
maxflinn:i dont get these suggestions re. tone controls , volume is volume , no ? if you can only listen at certain volumes , then bar turning up the , er , volume , or by getting a louder sound by using tone controls (which basically means indirectly turning up the volume) how can it be done ?
Tone controls don't turn up the volume.
Volume turns up volume.
At low levels our ears are less sensitive to frequency extremes. (They naturally retain sensitivity in the midrange because our ears have evolved to hear human voice frequencies best even at low levels.)
So that is why manufacturers introduced a 'loudness' contour to compensate for this at low volumes. Similar compensation can be achieved with use of the bass and treble to 'even' things out a bit.
actually while awaiting a response , i was thinking something a little similar might be the answer , i vaguely remember reading something about it somewhere .. ta..
maxflinn:i dont get these suggestions re. tone controls , volume is volume , no ? if you can only listen at certain volumes , then bar turning up the , er , volume , or by getting a louder sound by using tone controls (which basically means indirectly turning up the volume) how can it be done ?
Tone controls don't turn up the volume.
Volume turns up volume.
At low levels our ears are less sensitive to frequency extremes. (They naturally retain sensitivity in the midrange because our ears have evolved to hear human voice frequencies best even at low levels.)
So that is why manufacturers introduced a 'loudness' contour to compensate for this at low volumes. Similar compensation can be achieved with use of the bass and treble to 'even' things out a bit.
actually while awaiting a response , i was thinking something a little similar might be the answer , i vaguely remember reading something about it somewhere .. ta..
chebby:
SteveR750:If hi fi is defined as the realism by which is presents the recorded source, then volume is pretty critical! A drum kit is b****y loud even when played gently. Its arguably unimportant how it sounds at quiet levels, as it simply isn't realistic anyway and is already a huge compromise.
So when you take a photograph of a Skyscaper you expect the print to be over 1000 ft high?
When you watch a BluRay you not only expect 3D but you want all the people to be lifesize and the cars to be lifesize and the explosions and bullets to actually be lethal?
A simply recorded acoustic guitar is near impossible for even the most powerful hifi to reproduce exactly to live scale and volume. (I have heard a £20,000 Krell system - in 1980s money - fail dismally at this task.) Good luck with a full orchestra + organ + choir.
Well that's not really a fair analogy. You might expect that your picture has the same contrast as the real image - its doesn't of course, but a good sensor / image processor will give you a "hi fi" approximation. Of course a hi fi system has no chance against the real thing unless you go to a gig with your eyes closed.
SteveR750:If hi fi is defined as the realism by which is presents the recorded source, then volume is pretty critical! A drum kit is b****y loud even when played gently. Its arguably unimportant how it sounds at quiet levels, as it simply isn't realistic anyway and is already a huge compromise.
So when you take a photograph of a Skyscaper you expect the print to be over 1000 ft high?
When you watch a BluRay you not only expect 3D but you want all the people to be lifesize and the cars to be lifesize and the explosions and bullets to actually be lethal?
A simply recorded acoustic guitar is near impossible for even the most powerful hifi to reproduce exactly to live scale and volume. (I have heard a £20,000 Krell system - in 1980s money - fail dismally at this task.) Good luck with a full orchestra + organ + choir.
Well that's not really a fair analogy. You might expect that your picture has the same contrast as the real image - its doesn't of course, but a good sensor / image processor will give you a "hi fi" approximation. Of course a hi fi system has no chance against the real thing unless you go to a gig with your eyes closed.
chebby
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- Jun 2, 2008
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Max. I think this is why tone controls/loudness contours etc got a bad reputation.
Instead of using them judiciously to 'tame' the odd harsh recording (or use them to compensate for differences between heavily furnished or 'live' rooms) or use the loudness control in the way it was designed, people tended to rack these controls around to the end stops and use the loudness button at loud volumes. Perfectly good amps ended up sounding a mess.
It wouldn't have worked if a manufacturer had put in tone controls with a subtle range of effect because people who had got used to turning bass and treble up to 11 would have simply bought another manufacturers amp instead.
I am talking about people who graduated from 'Ghetto Blasters' to rack systems but brought their bad habits with them and still wanted that 'max'ed out' sound. (No pun intended Max).
Some 'purist' manufacturers decided they didn't want their products sounding that way or being associated with such bad habits and dropped the tone controls.
This just led to people seeking 'warm' or 'bright' sounding amp/speaker combinations and (I think) partly led to this whole idea of altering the tone and character of systems through cable tweaking instead. More 'respectable' and purist than those plebian tone 'knobs' but essentially achieving the same effects as a carefully used tone control at many times the cost.
A long time Quad user (for instance) would buy a new pair of speakers or move house or re-furnish and just alter the 'slope' a bit to compensate and leave it there until the next speaker or room change. Some might alter the tone a bit between Radio 2 and Radio 3 or 4.
Basically some people like to throw salt and pepper all over their food in the same quantities - regardless of what they are eating - and some people like to 'adjust' the seasoning depending on the dish. The answer isn't to ban salt & pepper.
.
Instead of using them judiciously to 'tame' the odd harsh recording (or use them to compensate for differences between heavily furnished or 'live' rooms) or use the loudness control in the way it was designed, people tended to rack these controls around to the end stops and use the loudness button at loud volumes. Perfectly good amps ended up sounding a mess.
It wouldn't have worked if a manufacturer had put in tone controls with a subtle range of effect because people who had got used to turning bass and treble up to 11 would have simply bought another manufacturers amp instead.
I am talking about people who graduated from 'Ghetto Blasters' to rack systems but brought their bad habits with them and still wanted that 'max'ed out' sound. (No pun intended Max).
Some 'purist' manufacturers decided they didn't want their products sounding that way or being associated with such bad habits and dropped the tone controls.
This just led to people seeking 'warm' or 'bright' sounding amp/speaker combinations and (I think) partly led to this whole idea of altering the tone and character of systems through cable tweaking instead. More 'respectable' and purist than those plebian tone 'knobs' but essentially achieving the same effects as a carefully used tone control at many times the cost.
A long time Quad user (for instance) would buy a new pair of speakers or move house or re-furnish and just alter the 'slope' a bit to compensate and leave it there until the next speaker or room change. Some might alter the tone a bit between Radio 2 and Radio 3 or 4.
Basically some people like to throw salt and pepper all over their food in the same quantities - regardless of what they are eating - and some people like to 'adjust' the seasoning depending on the dish. The answer isn't to ban salt & pepper.
.
chebby:
Max. I think this is why tone controls/loudness contours etc got a bad reputation.
Instead of using them judiciously to 'tame' the odd harsh recording (or use them to compensate for differences between heavily furnished or 'live' rooms) or use the loudness control in the way it was designed, people tended to rack these controls around to the end stops and use the loudness button at loud volumes. Perfectly good amps ended up sounding a mess.
It wouldn't have worked if a manufacturer had put in tone controls with a subtle range of effect because people who had got used to turning bass and treble up to 11 would have simply bought another manufacturers amp instead.
I am talking about people who graduated from 'Ghetto Blasters' to rack systems but brought their bad habits with them and still wanted that 'max'ed out' sound. (No pun intended Max).
Some 'purist' manufacturers decided they didn't want their products sounding that way or being associated with such bad habits and dropped the tone controls.
This just led to people seeking 'warm' or 'bright' sounding amp/speaker combinations and (I think) partly led to this whole idea of altering the tone and character of systems through cable tweaking instead. More 'respectable' and purist than those plebian tone 'knobs' but essentially achieving the same effects as a carefully used tone control at many times the cost.
A long time Quad user (for instance) would buy a new pair of speakers or move house or re-furnish and just alter the 'slope' a bit to compensate and leave it there until the next speaker or room change. Some might alter the tone a bit between Radio 2 and Radio 3 or 4.
Basically some people like to throw salt and pepper all over their food in the same quantities - regardless of what they are eating - and some people like to 'adjust' the seasoning depending on the dish. The answer isn't to ban salt & pepper.
.
very good chebby , you are in a rich vein of form of late
Max. I think this is why tone controls/loudness contours etc got a bad reputation.
Instead of using them judiciously to 'tame' the odd harsh recording (or use them to compensate for differences between heavily furnished or 'live' rooms) or use the loudness control in the way it was designed, people tended to rack these controls around to the end stops and use the loudness button at loud volumes. Perfectly good amps ended up sounding a mess.
It wouldn't have worked if a manufacturer had put in tone controls with a subtle range of effect because people who had got used to turning bass and treble up to 11 would have simply bought another manufacturers amp instead.
I am talking about people who graduated from 'Ghetto Blasters' to rack systems but brought their bad habits with them and still wanted that 'max'ed out' sound. (No pun intended Max).
Some 'purist' manufacturers decided they didn't want their products sounding that way or being associated with such bad habits and dropped the tone controls.
This just led to people seeking 'warm' or 'bright' sounding amp/speaker combinations and (I think) partly led to this whole idea of altering the tone and character of systems through cable tweaking instead. More 'respectable' and purist than those plebian tone 'knobs' but essentially achieving the same effects as a carefully used tone control at many times the cost.
A long time Quad user (for instance) would buy a new pair of speakers or move house or re-furnish and just alter the 'slope' a bit to compensate and leave it there until the next speaker or room change. Some might alter the tone a bit between Radio 2 and Radio 3 or 4.
Basically some people like to throw salt and pepper all over their food in the same quantities - regardless of what they are eating - and some people like to 'adjust' the seasoning depending on the dish. The answer isn't to ban salt & pepper.
.
very good chebby , you are in a rich vein of form of late
Thank you all, you have lost me! 'quite easy to do' I conclude I am missing out, I will try both the headphones and the adjustment first suggested by chebby. once again, thank you!
Well can only add that my Marantz and it's "tone" controls and - even worse in some peoples ears - "loudness" button has saved my late night listening. Pretty much silence after 9-00pm otherwise.
Came pretty close to selling my Pioneer for this reason, but thank God I didn't. Bit of an aggravation switching cables around in the day but more than thankfully I kept it. Tone controls have their place (like Richard Thompson right now!), but if you don't want them their's always a button to turn them off!
Came pretty close to selling my Pioneer for this reason, but thank God I didn't. Bit of an aggravation switching cables around in the day but more than thankfully I kept it. Tone controls have their place (like Richard Thompson right now!), but if you don't want them their's always a button to turn them off!
I believe that it is also gear dependant.
For example, my work colleague has a NAD/B&W set up and when listening at audition levels it has more punch and is livelier than my Roksan set up. I feel mine is tighter and more precise but I couldn't really argue with him. But, and this is the point, lower the levels to more "normal" listening volumes and his system loses the punch that he so desires whereas mine simply loses volume. My set up retains precision and a bass presence even at low levels.
Headphones are the best solution if you like loud music without disturbing others though.
For example, my work colleague has a NAD/B&W set up and when listening at audition levels it has more punch and is livelier than my Roksan set up. I feel mine is tighter and more precise but I couldn't really argue with him. But, and this is the point, lower the levels to more "normal" listening volumes and his system loses the punch that he so desires whereas mine simply loses volume. My set up retains precision and a bass presence even at low levels.
Headphones are the best solution if you like loud music without disturbing others though.
chebby:
SteveR750:If hi fi is defined as the realism by which is presents the recorded source, then volume is pretty critical! A drum kit is b****y loud even when played gently. Its arguably unimportant how it sounds at quiet levels, as it simply isn't realistic anyway and is already a huge compromise.
So when you take a photograph of a Skyscaper you expect the print to be over 1000 ft high?
When you watch a BluRay you not only expect 3D but you want all the people to be lifesize and the cars to be lifesize and the explosions and bullets to actually be lethal?
A simply recorded acoustic guitar is near impossible for even the most powerful hifi to reproduce exactly to live scale and volume. (I have heard a £20,000 Krell system - in 1980s money - fail dismally at this task.) Good luck with a full orchestra + organ + choir.
Agree with you chebby on this one, it,s even worse with a nylon strung guitar. I don,t think low volume takes anything away from the music ( well it shouldn,t, depends on how good your equipment is ), at higher volumes, as chebby says, you might feel a better sense of scale and authority, but if your system is good enough then at low levels you should hear everything. I was always told that when you audition a piece of hi-fi kit, you should start off listening at low volume, because if you start with high volume then turn down, your ears are accustomed to the higher level and at lower volume you don,t hear the detail as much. My pre-amp is also a dedicated headphone amp and is designed to give you everything at intimate listening levels, at lower volume i can still hear everything.
SteveR750:If hi fi is defined as the realism by which is presents the recorded source, then volume is pretty critical! A drum kit is b****y loud even when played gently. Its arguably unimportant how it sounds at quiet levels, as it simply isn't realistic anyway and is already a huge compromise.
So when you take a photograph of a Skyscaper you expect the print to be over 1000 ft high?
When you watch a BluRay you not only expect 3D but you want all the people to be lifesize and the cars to be lifesize and the explosions and bullets to actually be lethal?
A simply recorded acoustic guitar is near impossible for even the most powerful hifi to reproduce exactly to live scale and volume. (I have heard a £20,000 Krell system - in 1980s money - fail dismally at this task.) Good luck with a full orchestra + organ + choir.
Agree with you chebby on this one, it,s even worse with a nylon strung guitar. I don,t think low volume takes anything away from the music ( well it shouldn,t, depends on how good your equipment is ), at higher volumes, as chebby says, you might feel a better sense of scale and authority, but if your system is good enough then at low levels you should hear everything. I was always told that when you audition a piece of hi-fi kit, you should start off listening at low volume, because if you start with high volume then turn down, your ears are accustomed to the higher level and at lower volume you don,t hear the detail as much. My pre-amp is also a dedicated headphone amp and is designed to give you everything at intimate listening levels, at lower volume i can still hear everything.
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