Loudspeakers that measure bad but sound good

[Infiniteloop]

I've recently been eyeing up the Guarneri Evolutions......

Fantastic idea.....just do it....life is short.

I still can't fathom how you like Focal and SF / Devialet and UR.....normally if you like one, you can't stand the other.

It's a strange world.......

I enjoy the difference in the way both these systems present the music. One of them is crystal clear and very dynamic, the other is warm, rich and romantic. - To my ears, both sound superb.

The reason for looking at the Guarneri's is because I switched the SF Auditors into my Devialet system downstairs, just for the hell of it and they sounded really very good. - Not as crystal clear as the Focals, but with much better Bass than they provide with the S8..... Then I got an itch and by all accounts from reviews on the intermess, the Guarneri's might give me both extra clarity, dynamism and warmth.

Thing is, I'm still keen on getting the SME TT and obviously the outlay is getting serious....

I'm thinking I should enjoy the TT for now with the Focals and look at the Guarneri's next year.

 

[lindsayt]

Vladimir, but the frequency response of those Sonus Faber Aida's isn't flat. It starts falling off a mountain at 50hz.

 

[Vladimir]

Vladimir, but the frequency response of those Sonus Faber Aida's isn't flat. It starts falling off a mountain at 50hz.

But it compensates with looks and how it makes you feel owning them. If you buy a better measuring speaker, say the JBL M2s, the amount of extracted endorphin for your brain will be less simply because there is no Kansei engineering employed in them (the subjective factor X we argue about and split in two camps), no pride of ownership. Hi-fi is as much furniture and social status as it is about technical performance, very likely more. For the same reason people still buy tube amps and turntables in the 21st century.

Ironically, in Japan audiophiles crave for old pro equipment like JBL studio monitors and buy those huge boxes at huge premiums and place them in their tiny appartments and play twangy kabuki music. Why do they buy them? Because they drooled over JBL broschures in their youth. It's not about the music or the sound, it's about how it makes you feel.

 

[lindsayt]

I wouldn't feel any of those things about the Aidas, unless I bought them for £500.

If I spent more than £10,000 on them I'd feel as if I'd been completely and utterly ripped off.

 

[Reijer]

Nice speakers, Vladimir. But 90.000,- euro for a pair is a litte over budget. At this price there is no question if they sound good; it has to! But why do people buy these speakers? Nice PMC or Kef are also good.

Or is it the factory to show of, like a little game; who has the biggest p.n.s?

 

[nopiano]

@ Infiniteloop, I’m a bit like Cno in that I’m not a big Focal fan. I know that’s a bit sweeping when they make dozens of models, so I guess I am referring to half a dozen of their premium models I’ve heard at various shows over about 5 years. Whatever the source or amp they seemed glassy and forward, and just not like real music (to my ears, of course). BTW, I have loved Devialet from their very first days, and inevitably my first encounter was via sf Cremonas!
@ lindsayt, I’m sure you’re right about LF extension and being able to go rather deeper, but I rather thought it was pretty hard to measure accurately below 45-50Hz, esp anechoically. Did I misremember that?In any event, wouldn’t you need 12” drivers or larger, which bring their own problems?

 

[Vladimir]

These are writtent by industry legend John Lenard Burnett. Easy to digest for us beginners despite their technical nature.

> Crossover Basics

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[Infiniteloop]

@ Infiniteloop, I’m a bit like Cno in that I’m not a big Focal fan. I know that’s a bit sweeping when they make dozens of models, so I guess I am referring to half a dozen of their premium models I’ve heard at various shows over about 5 years. Whatever the source or amp they seemed glassy and forward, and just not like real music (to my ears, of course). BTW, I have loved Devialet from their very first days, and inevitably my first encounter was via sf Cremonas!

@ lindsayt, I’m sure you’re right about LF extension and being able to go rather deeper, but I rather thought it was pretty hard to measure accurately below 45-50Hz, esp anechoically. Did I misremember that? In any event, wouldn’t you need 12” drivers or larger, which bring their own problems?

I can totally understand why higher end Focals wouldn't do very well at shows. To be honest, I don't think shows do a very good job of showing off any speaker at its best. I have heard some terrible sounding, big name systems at shows and only really visit them to look at the equipment.

In my lounge the 1008Be's sound very dynamic and detailed, slightly warm and colourful (but certainly not 'coloured'). I think they give an accurate portrayal of what the components further up the system are doing. In my case, the detailed and dynamic but easy style of the Devialet 200 shines through and with Vinyl, the extra warmth comes across in an almost valve-like manner. I don't think they're too bright or forward, but will certainly let you know how a track was recorded without going as far as making it sound unpleasant. Being easy to drive, they make a great match with my Unison Research S8 too.

 

[lindsayt]

Infiniteloop, if your 1008Be's are giving an accurate portrayal of what the components further up the system are doing, doe this mean that you think your source or amplification are progressively filtering out the bass below 70 hz?

nopiano, bass extension below 45 hertz is really the realm of 18" or bigger drivers, unless you use equalisation or port stunts. Using such big drivers does bring the problems of cost and large size, and possibly an extra crossover region, plus the possibility of too much bass echo in sparsely furnished rooms. Do you think there are any other problems associated with using 18" or bigger drivers?

 

[Infiniteloop]

Infiniteloop, if your 1008Be's are giving an accurate portrayal of what the components further up the system are doing, doe this mean that you think your source or amplification are progressively filtering out the bass below 70 hz?

nopiano, bass extension below 45 hertz is really the realm of 18" or bigger drivers, unless you use equalisation or port stunts. Using such big drivers does bring the problems of cost and large size, and possibly an extra crossover region, plus the possibility of too much bass echo in sparsely furnished rooms. Do you think there are any other problems associated with using 18" or bigger drivers?

Of course not. But given their parameters, I think they do a good job.

SAM (a function of the Devialet) allows the 1008Be's to give deeper Bass than without.

 

[nopiano]

nopiano, bass extension below 45 hertz is really the realm of 18" or bigger drivers, unless you use equalisation or port stunts. Using such big drivers does bring the problems of cost and large size, and possibly an extra crossover region, plus the possibility of too much bass echo in sparsely furnished rooms. Do you think there are any other problems associated with using 18" or bigger drivers?

Hi Lindsay, I've only a few times heard even 12" woofers, and the only bigger ones I can think of are fleeting encounters with big JBLs and the old Leak 2075 (the one with the swivelling top). The huge JBLs were at shows, and though 'rock concert' loud, therefore v impressive, they didn't sound very subtle or domestic, which is my priority. The Leaks were rather good (and we had them in the shop, so heard them over 2 years), mostly because they were effortless in the bass, a bit like sub-woofers can be. The old IMF/TDLs and some big Tannoys were similarly relaxed.

In a very generalised way, those huge bass cones didn't seem to lend themselves to much crispness or attack though, and since most home systems struggle to reproduce below c 50Hz anyway (and I date from the first LP era, when hum was to be avoided!). So they could sound good on, say, a cathedral organ, they missed the kick of a good drum kit (or drowned it in boom). They definitely moved the air though, and for many that is enough, as it replicates a large arena experience.

More specifically, and relevant today, is the percieved wisdom that wide cabinets have other problems, hence even high-end models (like that sf Aida and KEF Blades) choose multiple smaller units not one big 'un. You'll know all the downsides, not least cost of manufacture and shipping.

As it happens, according to this review of my models (far less ambitious designs) they are pretty solid down to 40Hz thanks to the ABR. ["...the speaker gives full output down to the radiator tuning frequency of 40Hz, then rolls out steeply..."] They only have a weeny 7" bass driver though!

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/269/index.html#PfBXxveuWuyutV3a.97

Incidentally, I'd never much liked ABRs as a rule, but I loved the sound of these, so gave up my previous dislikes just to get that sound in my living room!

 

[Native_bon]

nopiano, bass extension below 45 hertz is really the realm of 18" or bigger drivers, unless you use equalisation or port stunts. Using such big drivers does bring the problems of cost and large size, and possibly an extra crossover region, plus the possibility of too much bass echo in sparsely furnished rooms. Do you think there are any other problems associated with using 18" or bigger drivers?

Hi Lindsay, I've only a few times heard even 12" woofers, and the only bigger ones I can think of are fleeting encounters with big JBLs and the old Leak 2075 (the one with the swivelling top). The huge JBLs were at shows, and though 'rock concert' loud, therefore v impressive, they didn't sound very subtle or domestic, which is my priority. The Leaks were rather good (and we had them in the shop, so heard them over 2 years), mostly because they were effortless in the bass, a bit like sub-woofers can be. The old IMF/TDLs and some big Tannoys were similarly relaxed.

In a very generalised way, those huge bass cones didn't seem to lend themselves to much crispness or attack though, and since most home systems struggle to reproduce below c 50Hz anyway (and I date from the first LP era, when hum was to be avoided!). So they could sound good on, say, a cathedral organ, they missed the kick of a good drum kit (or drowned it in boom). They definitely moved the air though, and for many that is enough, as it replicates a large arena experience.

More specifically, and relevant today, is the percieved wisdom that wide cabinets have other problems, hence even high-end models (like that sf Aida and KEF Blades) choose multiple smaller units not one big 'un. You'll know all the downsides, not least cost of manufacture and shipping.

As it happens, according to this review of my models (far less ambitious designs) they are pretty solid down to 40Hz thanks to the ABR. ["...the speaker gives full output down to the radiator tuning frequency of 40Hz, then rolls out steeply..."] They only have a weeny 7" bass driver though!

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/269/index.html#PfBXxveuWuyu...

Incidentally, I'd never much liked ABRs as a rule, but I loved the sound of these, so gave up my previous dislikes just to get that sound in my living room!

Cn't agree more. This is the very reason I love my current speakers.The woofers are only 4inches across. But you just have to hear the bass to know this thoery works in well designed speaker, tight, focused & robust.

 

[Reijer]

In a very generalised way, those huge bass cones didn't seem to lend themselves to much crispness or attack though, and since most home systems struggle to reproduce below c 50Hz anyway (and I date from the first LP era, when hum was to be avoided!). So they could sound good on, say, a cathedral organ, they missed the kick of a good drum kit (or drowned it in boom). They definitely moved the air though, and for many that is enough, as it replicates a large arena experience.

The only time I heard large woofers working correctly was in the pro-industry, with a concert of the choir I used to be the technician. For that concert we hired a company. During the soundcheck of his soundsystem in the church, he turned off the left-, right- and middle line array (the tops) so only the subs were making sound. I could't make any music of it but I know it was Norah Jones because I saw the cd.

 

[DocG]

These are writtent by industry legend John Lenard Burnett. Easy to digest for us beginners despite their technical nature.

> Crossover Basics

Passive crossovers

Active crossovers

Time alignment

More articles

Very interesting, and written with a firm dash of irony here and there: an enjoyable read indeed!

Thanks, Vlad! *drinks*

 

[Vladimir]

*drinks*