ear:bet you wont like the colours on the lgthe colours, should they be a little muted, i could live with for a year, and anyways, ae jim reckons the colours are fine and dandy? so im not too worried, its good motion, and a natural looking picture that are my main goals, at the money, if i get those ill be quite happy
side by side with pana and samsung the Lg color looks orangy and wrong.the sam colors better just like the pana.but....I seem to be losing all trust on samsung, so many reports of malfunctions we dont see coming from lg owners.
50in supertest in next issue - with subscribers next week- that majors on 50in plasmas....including Samsung, LG and Panasonic
6th.replicant:stu31:Thanks very much, whats your fireware version? i read online that updating the firmware also looses the panel usage hours.
The tv came with 03.02.07 installed on mine and i have some figures after the ESN but i dont know what they mean?
Any ideas ?
Are you still happy with your PK990, stu31?
Any chance of an update - what's your verdict re black levels?
Ta
Yes ! lol
Panel has approx 40hrs on it, so i feel i can make some valid observations now.
Freeview, good, some channels can seem a little soft with abit of noise but this could be down to the fact that i've gone from a 42" to a 50" set so am seeing everything fresh again.
USB, media interface very easy to use, playback ultra smooth i would say better quality than when using the Sony blu ray usb port.
Freesat, hd through the foxsat box is steller slight bit of noise on some sd pictures which is no different to what i had on the 42" panny.
Blu ray, watched the incredible hulk and iron man disk yesterday pictures were crisp the depth of picture, graduations of black levels, shadows etc spot on.
Currently using isf picture modes with contrast turned down slightly for run in on all inputs.
I would not recommend this set for a very bright room if you have no way of shading the sun as its abit more reflective than my old panny which won't suit everyone, my screen is 90 degrees from a window but i have vertical blinds so its not a problem for me.
so to sum up,
pros
No motion blur
Black levels
Menu interface and amount of options/settings
Set design
Sound
Cons
SD some channels can look soft
Reflective screen
LG Netcast is pants !
Minor irks,
Instructions say to lay the screen FLAT in order to fit the stand er NO WAY!
Cable management clip on the back of the stand can only accomodate 2 decent quality cables !
So its a 8.5 outta 10 for me so i reckon 9-9.5 after the set has run in.
Hope this helps.
The tv came with 03.02.07 installed on mine and i have some figures after the ESN but i dont know what they mean?
Any ideas ?
Are you still happy with your PK990, stu31?
Any chance of an update - what's your verdict re black levels?
Ta
Yes ! lol
Panel has approx 40hrs on it, so i feel i can make some valid observations now.
Freeview, good, some channels can seem a little soft with abit of noise but this could be down to the fact that i've gone from a 42" to a 50" set so am seeing everything fresh again.
USB, media interface very easy to use, playback ultra smooth i would say better quality than when using the Sony blu ray usb port.
Freesat, hd through the foxsat box is steller slight bit of noise on some sd pictures which is no different to what i had on the 42" panny.
Blu ray, watched the incredible hulk and iron man disk yesterday pictures were crisp the depth of picture, graduations of black levels, shadows etc spot on.
Currently using isf picture modes with contrast turned down slightly for run in on all inputs.
I would not recommend this set for a very bright room if you have no way of shading the sun as its abit more reflective than my old panny which won't suit everyone, my screen is 90 degrees from a window but i have vertical blinds so its not a problem for me.
so to sum up,
pros
No motion blur
Black levels
Menu interface and amount of options/settings
Set design
Sound
Cons
SD some channels can look soft
Reflective screen
LG Netcast is pants !
Minor irks,
Instructions say to lay the screen FLAT in order to fit the stand er NO WAY!
Cable management clip on the back of the stand can only accomodate 2 decent quality cables !
So its a 8.5 outta 10 for me so i reckon 9-9.5 after the set has run in.
Hope this helps.
AEJim
Well-known member
AEJim
Well-known member
ear:side by side with pana and samsung the Lg color looks orangy and wrong.the sam colors better just like the pana.but....I seem to be losing all trust on samsung, so many reports of malfunctions we dont see coming from lg owners.
Might depend on panel variation and picture mode you have it on etc... There's a lot of variables. Colour bugs me if it's wrong to my eyes, unnatural grass and over strong reds being the normal culprits. This is a calibrated read out of the LG panel in the current range (350-590-790-990), it's about as accurate as it gets when set up properly, and you have to options available to do so pretty thoroughly. If you went for the 590 and up the THX mode should be pretty decent though Expert on the 350 isn't too far off.
Credit goes to "Chad B", calibrator in the US for this, not me!
Might depend on panel variation and picture mode you have it on etc... There's a lot of variables. Colour bugs me if it's wrong to my eyes, unnatural grass and over strong reds being the normal culprits. This is a calibrated read out of the LG panel in the current range (350-590-790-990), it's about as accurate as it gets when set up properly, and you have to options available to do so pretty thoroughly. If you went for the 590 and up the THX mode should be pretty decent though Expert on the 350 isn't too far off.
Credit goes to "Chad B", calibrator in the US for this, not me!
not having ON OFF swicth must be the norm these days.yes might be store settings that appear bad.just read your post about it.well isolated from other tvs the image doesnt seem bad.
hmmm, is ae owned by lg
, jim is doing a great job for both
, as far as value for money goes though, lg seems hard to beat..
AEJim
Well-known member
maxflinn:hmmm, is ae owned by lg
, jim is doing a great job for both
, as far as value for money goes though, lg seems hard to beat..
Hah, nope, we're owned by Malaysians, not Koreans!
The whole value for money point is what I'm getting at really - the screen isn't perfect and I wouldn't be so naive as to suggest so, but considering I paid £700 (discounted) a few years back for my 32" Pana LXD700 LCD, which was great - less than £600 for a decent 50" is a fantastic deal. The main problem with it is the reflective screen - I would not buy it if I sat with windows behind me, but I did a lot of research before I bought it and this one came out as the best value for money as I didn't want the "toys" that come with many screens. I'm sure the Pana VT20 beats it, but I don't think it's night and day and the LG is literally half the price. No brainer for me considering it can be calibrated to very high standards if you don't like it out of the box!
Hah, nope, we're owned by Malaysians, not Koreans!
AEJim
Well-known member
Oh, and since I can't promote my own speakers I have to go on about other things!
I'm fully expecting the LG to get 2 stars in next months test now I've gone on about it so much!
6th.replicant
Well-known member
AEJim:Might depend on panel variation and picture mode you have it on etc... There's a lot of variables. Colour bugs me if it's wrong to my eyes, unnatural grass and over strong reds being the normal culprits. This is a calibrated read out of the LG panel in the current range (350-590-790-990), it's about as accurate as it gets when set up properly, and you have to options available to do so pretty thoroughly. If you went for the 590 and up the THX mode should be pretty decent though Expert on the 350 isn't too far off.
Credit goes to "Chad B", calibrator in the US for this, not me!
Thanks for all your input/advice, AE Jim. The above info was the clincher.
Just ordered a PK350. At £598 incl next-day delivery (Amazon), IMO it's a no-brainer stop-gap until a 2D 'Kuro-beater' finally arrives, if ever...
Think I'll have the PK350 calibrated, too.
Credit goes to "Chad B", calibrator in the US for this, not me!
Thanks for all your input/advice, AE Jim. The above info was the clincher.
Just ordered a PK350. At £598 incl next-day delivery (Amazon), IMO it's a no-brainer stop-gap until a 2D 'Kuro-beater' finally arrives, if ever...
Think I'll have the PK350 calibrated, too.
AEJim
Well-known member
I think you'll be happy with it "6th", I'm picky about these kind of things and I find the flaws minimal and the positives many (it seems all current screens have flaws regardless of price! The Kuro's still seem to be the only "perfect" screens...). I still need to get mine calibrated really but am happy enough with the pic as it is for now, been concentrating too much on the projector in recent weeks!
One thing it may be worth doing is having settings for HD and SD (you have two expert calibration settings) - I find with SD you have to take it easy with colours, understandably as the colour depth information is limited, but with HD you can go pretty nuts before it becomes overblown - the picture has far more depth when you do this!
I think contrast around 80, brightness around 54, colour temp warm and gamma set to high provides pretty nice results - turn off everything else. The gamma thing is optional though some thought it better turned high - if you're getting it calibrated it won't matter much!
Happy viewing!
*Edit - Oh, and do be afraid of a little image retention to start, it soon fades - Now it's run in more if I watch Sky news for 30 mins I can just see the logo close up when I change channels but this goes after 30 secs, I can't see it from my seated position.
One thing it may be worth doing is having settings for HD and SD (you have two expert calibration settings) - I find with SD you have to take it easy with colours, understandably as the colour depth information is limited, but with HD you can go pretty nuts before it becomes overblown - the picture has far more depth when you do this!
I think contrast around 80, brightness around 54, colour temp warm and gamma set to high provides pretty nice results - turn off everything else. The gamma thing is optional though some thought it better turned high - if you're getting it calibrated it won't matter much!
Happy viewing!
*Edit - Oh, and do be afraid of a little image retention to start, it soon fades - Now it's run in more if I watch Sky news for 30 mins I can just see the logo close up when I change channels but this goes after 30 secs, I can't see it from my seated position.
6th.replicant
Well-known member
Cheers.
Does the PK350 need 'running-in', if so, which settings/levels do you suggest, and for how long? Ta.
Fish hooks! Can't seem to find any 'calibration boffins' around my locale - Frome/Bath/Bristol way. Of course, there be loads of 'em in that thar London village, which is where I resided 'til three weeks ago.
Does the PK350 need 'running-in', if so, which settings/levels do you suggest, and for how long? Ta.
Fish hooks! Can't seem to find any 'calibration boffins' around my locale - Frome/Bath/Bristol way. Of course, there be loads of 'em in that thar London village, which is where I resided 'til three weeks ago.
AEJim
Well-known member
6th.replicant:Cheers.
Does the PK350 need 'running-in', if so, which settings/levels do you suggest, and for how long? Ta.Fish hooks! Can't seem to find any 'calibration boffins' around my locale - Frome/Bath/Bristol way. Of course, there be loads of 'em in that thar London village, which is where I resided 'til three weeks ago.
Some people reckon it needs running in but I didn't and it's fine - people worry about these kinds of things a little much, just use the colour/white wash if you're watching channels with static logo's for a long time to clear any retention in the first 100 hours or so.
Try these guys for calibration in your area -
Storm Front (Level II certified)
Manor Farm Cottage
Wadswick Lane
Corsham SN13 8JB
United Kingdom
[44] 7534097796
If not I've got the details of a guy in Swindon who said £200+ depending on location...
Some people reckon it needs running in but I didn't and it's fine - people worry about these kinds of things a little much, just use the colour/white wash if you're watching channels with static logo's for a long time to clear any retention in the first 100 hours or so.
Try these guys for calibration in your area -
Storm Front (Level II certified)
Manor Farm Cottage
Wadswick Lane
Corsham SN13 8JB
United Kingdom
[44] 7534097796
If not I've got the details of a guy in Swindon who said £200+ depending on location...
6th.replicant
Well-known member
AEJim:Some people reckon it needs running in but I didn't and it's fine - people worry about these kinds of things a little much, just use the colour/white wash if you're watching channels with static logo's for a long time to clear any retention in the first 100 hours or so.
Try these guys for calibration in your area -
Storm Front (Level II certified)
Manor Farm Cottage
Wadswick Lane
Corsham SN13 8JB
United Kingdom
[44] 7534097796
If not I've got the details of a guy in Swindon who said £200+ depending on location...
Ta. I'll try 'em for a quote tomorrow.
Try these guys for calibration in your area -
Storm Front (Level II certified)
Manor Farm Cottage
Wadswick Lane
Corsham SN13 8JB
United Kingdom
[44] 7534097796
If not I've got the details of a guy in Swindon who said £200+ depending on location...
Ta. I'll try 'em for a quote tomorrow.
amazon uk send to ireland 6th, it looks like i may have a job getting refunded for my v20 though, ill spare the details, hopefully ill get it sorted , a review of you're new tv would be nice once you've spent a bit of time with it
edit.. my trusty advisor for all things a.v., torres09, has just informed me they have the pk350 here in ireland for e800 with free delivery, thats £650, not bad at all, ill have to demo though, but dublin is only an hour and a half up the frog and toad
edit.. my trusty advisor for all things a.v., torres09, has just informed me they have the pk350 here in ireland for e800 with free delivery, thats £650, not bad at all, ill have to demo though, but dublin is only an hour and a half up the frog and toad
6th.replicant
Well-known member
maxflinn:amazon uk send to ireland 6th, it looks like i may have a job getting refunded for my v20 though, ill spare the details, hopefully ill get it sorted , a review of you're new tv would be nice once you've spent a bit of time with it
Will do.
Why probs obtaining refund? Surely Eire's Sale of Goods Act is same/similar to UK's? Both are based on EU dictat.
Unless you have damaged the TV, I dinnae ken whit ye mean.
Let us know, I love a good scrap with a retailer/manufacturer. And cos I've had so much faulty tat over the past few years, I unfortunately have plenty of experience.
Will do.
Why probs obtaining refund? Surely Eire's Sale of Goods Act is same/similar to UK's? Both are based on EU dictat.
Unless you have damaged the TV, I dinnae ken whit ye mean.
Let us know, I love a good scrap with a retailer/manufacturer. And cos I've had so much faulty tat over the past few years, I unfortunately have plenty of experience.
well, panasonic are saying that they doubt there is anything wrong with the tv, they reckon its because im using my humax and not the internal hd tuner that im getting the motion issues, but thats not the case, the issues are there with all sources, including the internal tuner which ive tested, and dvds, although less so with blu-rays..
the store requested that i write to panasonic uk, asking them to send out an engineer, that seemingly wont charge in the event that he finds no issues, which of course he would, or should i say should. but if panasonic ireland send an engineer, he would want e120 plus vat per hour, including travelling time of 3 hours, and time spent checking the tv, if he deems the tv to be working within spec
. why should a request to pana ireland to examine a brand new tv involve a possible cost to me, while a request in writing to pana uk would mean the same engineer would not charge me, regardless of his findings?
the thing is, once you've noticed problems with a tv, you see them all the time, you're subconsciously looking for them, and its impossible to ignore them, whats happening is, with certain types of motion, the image slightly loses focus, clarity if you like, to varying degrees, more so on panning shots where there is also judder, as is being widely reported on the web, that just didnt happen on my g10, and is not acceptable to me on a higher specced/priced and newer tv..
their reluctance to even entertain the possibility of an issue, is interesting, i wonder if that is a stance panasonic are taking to stem the tide of returns/refunds? of which there are many, i mean, if all v20's have these motion issues, then they are a bad buy, simples,and denial will probably be their answer, if not, which is probably the case, why are they so sure that my tv is fine? dont some tvs have manufacturing faults? ..
i refused to write to pana uk, why should i? i bought the tv in ireland not england, and i shouldnt have to do so anyway. thats the sellers responsibility. as regards a cooling off period, you dont have one here if you have bought the tv instore, you can of course ask for a repair/replacement or refund, but thats dependant on the view of the seller, and is negotiable..
anyways im waiting on word back from the store tmw, i hope they do the decent thing and give me my money back, i love most of what the tv does, and bought it after lots of demoing, all blu-rays incidentaly, in good faith, with the intention of keeping it for a few years, but its flawed, inherantly or faulty i dont know or care, its not acceptable for a tv costing e1650, and if i have to picket the store, and believe me i would, then im getting my money back, its up to the store, and panasonic, how easy or hard the process of a refund will be, but refund there will be..
the store requested that i write to panasonic uk, asking them to send out an engineer, that seemingly wont charge in the event that he finds no issues, which of course he would, or should i say should. but if panasonic ireland send an engineer, he would want e120 plus vat per hour, including travelling time of 3 hours, and time spent checking the tv, if he deems the tv to be working within spec
the thing is, once you've noticed problems with a tv, you see them all the time, you're subconsciously looking for them, and its impossible to ignore them, whats happening is, with certain types of motion, the image slightly loses focus, clarity if you like, to varying degrees, more so on panning shots where there is also judder, as is being widely reported on the web, that just didnt happen on my g10, and is not acceptable to me on a higher specced/priced and newer tv..
their reluctance to even entertain the possibility of an issue, is interesting, i wonder if that is a stance panasonic are taking to stem the tide of returns/refunds? of which there are many, i mean, if all v20's have these motion issues, then they are a bad buy, simples,and denial will probably be their answer, if not, which is probably the case, why are they so sure that my tv is fine? dont some tvs have manufacturing faults? ..
i refused to write to pana uk, why should i? i bought the tv in ireland not england, and i shouldnt have to do so anyway. thats the sellers responsibility. as regards a cooling off period, you dont have one here if you have bought the tv instore, you can of course ask for a repair/replacement or refund, but thats dependant on the view of the seller, and is negotiable..
anyways im waiting on word back from the store tmw, i hope they do the decent thing and give me my money back, i love most of what the tv does, and bought it after lots of demoing, all blu-rays incidentaly, in good faith, with the intention of keeping it for a few years, but its flawed, inherantly or faulty i dont know or care, its not acceptable for a tv costing e1650, and if i have to picket the store, and believe me i would, then im getting my money back, its up to the store, and panasonic, how easy or hard the process of a refund will be, but refund there will be..
6th.replicant
Well-known member
According to UK Sale of Goods Act, the onus is on the dealer, not the manufacturer. The dealer is responsible for fixing the TV, parts and labour, if it develops a fault or has a manufacturing/design flaw for up to six years after purchase. If dealer is unable to repair, then a replacement or refund is due.
This above is, in essence, EU law, ergo the same for Ireland. Have you contacted the European Consumer Centre Ireland (01 8090600)?
Basic rule is that the store has one chance to fix the TV, if it can't, then you receive a 100% refund. And the sending out an engineer etc is not your responsibility in terms of fees etc. Sounds as if your dealer is trying to pass the buck.
As mentioned, the first step is to contact the European Consumer Centre Ireland.
This above is, in essence, EU law, ergo the same for Ireland. Have you contacted the European Consumer Centre Ireland (01 8090600)?
Basic rule is that the store has one chance to fix the TV, if it can't, then you receive a 100% refund. And the sending out an engineer etc is not your responsibility in terms of fees etc. Sounds as if your dealer is trying to pass the buck.
As mentioned, the first step is to contact the European Consumer Centre Ireland.
thanks for taking the time to look that up 6th , much appreciated
, ill ring that number tmw, ive edited my last post to try to explain things a bit better, ill report my findings here..
fwiw ..
i dont want to write all this stuff in my panasonic review thread, it may pop up after googling, its not good publicity for panasonic or the store, and i want to give them the chance to do the right thing before giving them bad press...
fwiw ..
i dont want to write all this stuff in my panasonic review thread, it may pop up after googling, its not good publicity for panasonic or the store, and i want to give them the chance to do the right thing before giving them bad press...
6th.replicant:
As mentioned, the first step is to contact the European Consumer Centre Ireland.
Actually, the first step is probably to contact the National Consumer Agency, on 1890 432 432 or (01) 402 5555.
As mentioned, the first step is to contact the European Consumer Centre Ireland.
Actually, the first step is probably to contact the National Consumer Agency, on 1890 432 432 or (01) 402 5555.
Andrew Everard:
6th.replicant:
As mentioned, the first step is to contact the European Consumer Centre Ireland.
Actually, the first step is probably to contact the National Consumer Agency, on 1890 432 432 or (01) 402 5555.
cheers andrew, i spoke to them last week, they basically told me the tv has to be shown to be faulty before im entitled to a replacement, refund etc, and that the outcome of such cases was very dependant on the retailer.
6th.replicant:
As mentioned, the first step is to contact the European Consumer Centre Ireland.
Actually, the first step is probably to contact the National Consumer Agency, on 1890 432 432 or (01) 402 5555.
cheers andrew, i spoke to them last week, they basically told me the tv has to be shown to be faulty before im entitled to a replacement, refund etc, and that the outcome of such cases was very dependant on the retailer.
The store i bought my v20 in have been fantastic really, they replaced my v20, when any other shop would have probably said it was working within spec.. and now they are swapping my v20 for a vt20 (42") with me making up the difference.. i'm happy to do so.. i have written to panasonic uk via email.. and my main issue with with floating blacks.. they mentioned getting an engineer to look at it, but if it was within spec i would have to pay for the visit etc.. and then they said cause my v20 was designed for the UK market that they couldnt guarantee it would work in dublin the same way... wow... ok mpeg4 digital tuners aside, i didnt think the tv would mind whether it was in dublin or down! Anyway the service i'm getting from the shop i bought from (watters electrical) is brilliant.. so i'm glad thats working out.. I've bought from DID and Harvey Norman in the past, and when something goes wrong, they dont seem to care.. Thank god there's still some small independant guys out there who believe in customer service!
maxflinn:
well, panasonic are saying that they doubt there is anything wrong with the tv, they reckon its because im using my humax and not the internal hd tuner that im getting the motion issues, but thats not the case, the issues are there with all sources, including the internal tuner which ive tested, and dvds, although less so with blu-rays..
the store requested that i write to panasonic uk, asking them to send out an engineer, that seemingly wont charge in the event that he finds no issues, which of course he would, or should i say should. but if panasonic ireland send an engineer, he would want e120 plus vat per hour, including travelling time of 3 hours, and time spent checking the tv, if he deems the tv to be working within spec
. why should a request to pana ireland to examine a brand new tv involve a possible cost to me, while a request in writing to pana uk would mean the same engineer would not charge me, regardless of his findings?
the thing is, once you've noticed problems with a tv, you see them all the time, you're subconsciously looking for them, and its impossible to ignore them, whats happening is, with certain types of motion, the image slightly loses focus, clarity if you like, to varying degrees, more so on panning shots where there is also judder, as is being widely reported on the web, that just didnt happen on my g10, and is not acceptable to me on a higher specced/priced and newer tv..
their reluctance to even entertain the possibility of an issue, is interesting, i wonder if that is a stance panasonic are taking to stem the tide of returns/refunds? of which there are many, i mean, if all v20's have these motion issues, then they are a bad buy, simples,and denial will probably be their answer, if not, which is probably the case, why are they so sure that my tv is fine? dont some tvs have manufacturing faults? ..
i refused to write to pana uk, why should i? i bought the tv in ireland not england, and i shouldnt have to do so anyway. thats the sellers responsibility. as regards a cooling off period, you dont have one here if you have bought the tv instore, you can of course ask for a repair/replacement or refund, but thats dependant on the view of the seller, and is negotiable..
anyways im waiting on word back from the store tmw, i hope they do the decent thing and give me my money back, i love most of what the tv does, and bought it after lots of demoing, all blu-rays incidentaly, in good faith, with the intention of keeping it for a few years, but its flawed, inherantly or faulty i dont know or care, its not acceptable for a tv costing e1650, and if i have to picket the store, and believe me i would, then im getting my money back, its up to the store, and panasonic, how easy or hard the process of a refund will be, but refund there will be..
maxflinn:
well, panasonic are saying that they doubt there is anything wrong with the tv, they reckon its because im using my humax and not the internal hd tuner that im getting the motion issues, but thats not the case, the issues are there with all sources, including the internal tuner which ive tested, and dvds, although less so with blu-rays..
the store requested that i write to panasonic uk, asking them to send out an engineer, that seemingly wont charge in the event that he finds no issues, which of course he would, or should i say should. but if panasonic ireland send an engineer, he would want e120 plus vat per hour, including travelling time of 3 hours, and time spent checking the tv, if he deems the tv to be working within spec
the thing is, once you've noticed problems with a tv, you see them all the time, you're subconsciously looking for them, and its impossible to ignore them, whats happening is, with certain types of motion, the image slightly loses focus, clarity if you like, to varying degrees, more so on panning shots where there is also judder, as is being widely reported on the web, that just didnt happen on my g10, and is not acceptable to me on a higher specced/priced and newer tv..
their reluctance to even entertain the possibility of an issue, is interesting, i wonder if that is a stance panasonic are taking to stem the tide of returns/refunds? of which there are many, i mean, if all v20's have these motion issues, then they are a bad buy, simples,and denial will probably be their answer, if not, which is probably the case, why are they so sure that my tv is fine? dont some tvs have manufacturing faults? ..
i refused to write to pana uk, why should i? i bought the tv in ireland not england, and i shouldnt have to do so anyway. thats the sellers responsibility. as regards a cooling off period, you dont have one here if you have bought the tv instore, you can of course ask for a repair/replacement or refund, but thats dependant on the view of the seller, and is negotiable..
anyways im waiting on word back from the store tmw, i hope they do the decent thing and give me my money back, i love most of what the tv does, and bought it after lots of demoing, all blu-rays incidentaly, in good faith, with the intention of keeping it for a few years, but its flawed, inherantly or faulty i dont know or care, its not acceptable for a tv costing e1650, and if i have to picket the store, and believe me i would, then im getting my money back, its up to the store, and panasonic, how easy or hard the process of a refund will be, but refund there will be..
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