Kef reference speakers: what can you tell me?

[plastic penguin]

Heard so much about how good they from Coventry David, CnoEvil and a few others. I've only heard them once (circa 1996/7) with a surround sound set-up. Honestly can't remember anything apart from they were floorstanders and sounded impressive.

Which modern speakers come the closest and will they be any good with a Leema?

Chhers, pp

 

[jaxwired]

Really depends which generation you are talking about. The last two generations which include the 201 and 201/2 are very different from the prior generations. The version from the 1980's have a cult following, but my favorites are the generation from the 1990's called the Model 1 throught Model 4. These were the last KEF Reference generation to have the internal isobaric woofer configuration. The KEF Reference series has always had gorgeous mid and high frequency reproduction, but the last generation to have great bass was the Model X series. A pair of KEF Reference Model 2 or Model 3 are still world class full range speakers with the coicident mid/treble drivers. And a bargain when they show up on ebay.

 

[Frank Harvey]

That wouldn't be a Leema Pulse would it? 😉

Because of Leemas move of premises, this has slowed down me hearing their other products (we do the Elements range in store), but that should be sorted after Bristol.

You probably heard the older Reference range with the square cabinets PP? If so, the current range has changed vastly.

For treble attack/dynamics, the nearest I've found is PMC, which was the OB1i. The new Twenty series will be interesting to see if it has the same characteristic (I have a specific test for it), but I do know the Twenty series is now more open sounding.

For bass, not sure. The Reference has such an even, tight bass with vast headroom, I'd probably have to say the larger ATC boxes.

The Reference range have always been pretty easy to place as well, as they're mostly front ported, and have such little cabinet coloration that they can be place quite close to walls, closer than most speakers at their price point.

Off axis performance is probably the hardest to match. You may find some that will image as well as the KEF's, but very few speakers have the same wide dispersion characteristics of the UniQ driver, so very few compare in this respect.

I've always said one of my favourite speakers is the 205/2. If I had to choose something below those, I think it'd have to be something from the PMC Twenty series or the KEF R series. Both of these ranges are easier to drive than the Reference, so won't need huge amplification in order to hear them as they should sound.

But headroom is one of the key words here. Where the Reference excel, other than a neutral balance, is the vast headroom they have, with the right amplification of course. Their ability to remain sounding the same at louder volumes and still have the same dynamic cabilities is almost second to none at the price point. I've never bottomed out a pair of Reference - it's something you never need to think/worry about.

🙂

 

[plastic penguin]

That wouldn't be a Leema Pulse would it? 😉

Because of Leemas move of premises, this has slowed down me hearing their other products (we do the Elements range in store), but that should be sorted after Bristol.

You probably heard the older Reference range with the square cabinets PP? If so, the current range has changed vastly.

For treble attack/dynamics, the nearest I've found is PMC, which was the OB1i. The new Twenty series will be interesting to see if it has the same characteristic (I have a specific test for it), but I do know the Twenty series is now more open sounding.

For bass, not sure. The Reference has such an even, tight bass with vast headroom, I'd probably have to say the larger ATC boxes.

The Reference range have always been pretty easy to place as well, as they're mostly front ported, and have such little cabinet coloration that they can be place quite close to walls, closer than most speakers at their price point.

Off axis performance is probably the hardest to match. You may find some that will image as well as the KEF's, but very few speakers have the same wide dispersion characteristics of the UniQ driver, so very few compare in this respect.

I've always said one of my favourite speakers is the 205/2. If I had to choose something below those, I think it'd have to be something from the PMC Twenty series or the KEF R series. Both of these ranges are easier to drive than the Reference, so won't need huge amplification in order to hear them as they should sound.

But headroom is one of the key words here. Where the Reference excel, other than a neutral balance, is the vast headroom they have, with the right amplification of course. Their ability to remain sounding the same at louder volumes and still have the same dynamic cabilities is almost second to none at the price point. I've never bottomed out a pair of Reference - it's something you never need to think/worry about.

🙂

Thanks, David. Given you have mentioned numerous times about control by amp, and given I only play at low - medium levels, would you say a £1300 (80 watt) would suffice? I know you can't give a definitive answer, but gut feeling?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Thanks, David. Given you have mentioned numerous times about control by amp, and given I only play at low - medium levels, would you say a £1300 (80 watt) would suffice? I know you can't give a definitive answer, but gut feeling?

Gut feeling is not with Reference. It'll drive them, and you'll get a fair volume out of them - after all, Reference isn't that hard to drive - it's controlling them and supplying them with enough current to sound as they should is the issue. If anyone can do it at that price point, it'll be the Leema. I did get surprising results with the Onkyo A9000R though. Sounded awful at first, but, after a bit of tweaking sounded a viable system.

The Leema won't be an issue with the others I've mentioned.

 

[jaxwired]

My problem with the modern KEF Refs is the bass. The 205/2 sells for $12k in the US. For that money I expect full range or very close. The KEFs roll off at 45hz.

 

[Frank Harvey]

That's anechoic though. In room response will be lower 🙂

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks, David. Given you have mentioned numerous times about control by amp, and given I only play at low - medium levels, would you say a £1300 (80 watt) would suffice? I know you can't give a definitive answer, but gut feeling?

Gut feeling is not with Reference. It'll drive them, and you'll get a fair volume out of them - after all, Reference isn't that hard to drive - it's controlling them and supplying them with enough current to sound as they should is the issue. If anyone can do it at that price point, it'll be the Leema. I did get surprising results with the Onkyo A9000R though. Sounded awful at first, but, after a bit of tweaking sounded a viable system.

The Leema won't be an issue with the others I've mentioned.

So in terms of the Leema controlling a speaker, the new PMC 'Twenty' series will be a safer better match?

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi PP, I'm quite happy to share my thoughts and I apologize if it's been covered before.

The first thing to remember is that these are true "Reference" speakers, where the connotation is not just a marketing ploy. They are made to very exacting standards and individually matched...there is even a frequency response graph of your speakers included, signed by the person who built them!

They are also a bit of a chameleon, where they can sound very different depending on amplification (eg. McIntosh vs Linn vs Naim etc); they even show up differences in cabling, and highlight what's going on with the source.

They /2s are a big step up from the original (ie. Supertweeter on top), which I didn't like and were too bright. The sound of the current series is (imo) very open and accurate, without being bright....they are not as upfront as Focal, for example. I prefer them to both ATC and B&W 800D series .

The bass has been commented on already, but all I can tell you is that, with my AMS35i driving them, where the bass is called for, its there in spades....when the wick is turned up, it's a physical force that hits you in the stomach and rattles any loose fittings/fillings.

As David has already mentioned, take specifications with a pinch of salt....if these don't give enough bass, look to amp and then source. The IQ9s that I used to have, had a bass depth figure of 35 Hz and a measured in-room far-field response of -6 db at 25 Hz, but the bass definition of the Refs is in a completely different league.

The cheapest amp I would consider for the Reference series would be the Musical Fidelity M6 500i, which is about £4k. Anything under that (imo) is better being matched with the R series, which really are worth the praise they are getting at the moment.

So really what I'm saying is, that unless you are prepared to slot these into a system of a £4k+ amp and a £2k+ streamer / £3k+ CDP, you are better looking elsewhere....this is just my personal view, having tried a variety of amp/sources with them.

I have not heard anything that sounds very similar, but it may be that the new PMC Twenty series gets quite close....we shall see.

 

[CnoEvil]

My problem with the modern KEF Refs is the bass. The 205/2 sells for $12k in the US. For that money I expect full range or very close. The KEFs roll off at 45hz.

Most of the new "genuine" full range (20Hz - 20KHz) speakers over here cost £60k +.....unless I'm very much mistaken, which is always very possible. 🙂

 

[Frank Harvey]

At-6dB, the Blades are rated to 28Hz, and the 207/2's to 26dB, but in room the Blades reach below 20Hz and sound much deeper than the 207's. Just an example of how specs can pretty much mean very little.

 

[Frank Harvey]

So in terms of the Leema controlling a speaker, the new PMC 'Twenty' series will be a safer better match?

Just to reiterate, I haven't heard the Pulse, so I don't know what it's capable of, so I wouldn't like to say at this point it can or can't - I never say an amp can or can't drive a speaker properly unless I've heard the combination. At this point, the Pulse will be able to do a better job with the R series and the Twenty series as they're an easier load, and easier to control. But even if it can drive and control a Reference speaker, the other two ranges will still be easier on the Pulse.

 

[atanakata]

Hiya PP,

I`ve heard the PMC " Twenty"`s , and boy...You won`t believe the sound they produce.Especially given the size of their cabinets . They are stunning IMO , and definitely would be easier for the Pulse to drive them ...

 

[plastic penguin]

Hiya PP,

I`ve heard the PMC " Twenty"`s , and boy...You won`t believe the sound they produce.Especially given the size of their cabinets . They are stunning IMO , and definitely would be easier for the Pulse to drive them ...

cheers. Yeah, I do love the 'I' series and if the neo PMCs have the same traits they could be front runners.

 

[Frank Harvey]

They do, but greatly improved. I find them less boxy, and far more open and transparent than the i-series.

 

[plastic penguin]

They do, but greatly improved. I find them less boxy, and far more open and transparent than the i-series.

Interesting, Cap...:cheers:

Although I love my set-up - certainly for the prices paid - when I've had the DB1s and Totems the midrange is ever-so-slightly recessed compared to the RS6s, which me likes. Also the detail and lower frequencies are a tad more cohesive, however, the differences are subtle rather than 'a smack between the eyes'.

That said, these very slight deficiencies with the RS6s aren't detectable in isolation.

 

[Martin R]

Hi

I've had a pair of 4s since 2003, BNIB at the time. Bi amped with Musical Fidelity A300CRs and the Kef Kube between the pre and the power for the bass drivers. A pair of Tannoy super tweeters complete the set up.

THese speakers are just awesome, as I suspect many other speakers at this price would be.

Whilst an Audiophile with an interest in the equipment that reproduces the music, I know that I never need, nor want to buy another pair of speakers, nor any other sources (Musical Fidelity M1 Turntable, Shanling CDT HD CD player).

Awesome: see I've said it again. Lucid, to quote KEF. Incredibaly well built, big and with the force cancelling bar, I believe built on good engineering principles, albeit an expensive solution.

They move air like nothing else that I have ever experienced, sometimes sounding like all the air in the room is being sucked out.

Enough said?