Kef Reference Model Two and Cyrus?

[nathanc]

A few years ago I was very fortunate to acquire a Quad CD67 from my father-in-law when my Marantz CD67 MkII Ki Sig started playing up.

Since then I have steadily improved the system sound quality (and my enjoyment) through successive Cyrus and various cable (power and interconnect) upgrades.

My latest upgrade, a second (SmartPower Plus) power amp to run in mono and Chord Chorus Silver cable between my Cyrus 7 and powers, seems to have made the biggest difference. The treble is so much sweeter, the soundstage is nice and wide, instruments and voices just seem to be placed so well. I have started working my way through my complete CD library and keep hearing things that just weren't there before!

I don't think I will see much further benefit in upgrading the Cyrus kit any further (although I'm considering swapping the 7 for a dedicated Pre) - I suspect the limiting factor now is my Kef Q35 speakers.

As good as the Q35s are, they are over 10 years old, £350 speakers fronting some serious amplification and we are planning an extension so I'm soon going to have a larger space to fill.

I use the Q35s alongside a Kef Reference Series Model 100 for movies. I love the solid soundstage that I get from the UniQ drivers and doubt that traditional speakers would do it for me although I am open minded. Even in the larger space, the speakers are going to have to work close to boundaries and I need to be able to match the centre.

I've been reading around and quite like the look of the new Kef R series and the new Tannoy Precision however I'm wondering if I might be better off picking up a Kef Reference Model Two - I've read they are quite easy to drive although I doubt the Cyrus amps would struggle to drive the Model Ones. The benefit here is that they would nicely match my current centre... for an experiment I drove it from one of the Cyrus smartpowers in mono and it came alive!

Realisticly, my limit would have to be £2000 on the front three speakers, but anything not invested in the speakers could go to better surrounds and/or a contribution to my next AV amp upgrade.

I guess my question is are the older Kef Reference speakers that much better than the latest R series etc.. and how well suited would they be to my Cyrus kit?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I've been reading around and quite like the look of the new Kef R series and the new Tannoy Precision however I'm wondering if I might be better off picking up a Kef Reference Model Two - I've read they are quite easy to drive although I doubt the Cyrus amps would struggle to drive the Model Ones. The benefit here is that they would nicely match my current centre... for an experiment I drove it from one of the Cyrus smartpowers in mono and it came alive!

As with all ranges, the entry level standmounts and floorstanders are the least efficient, so you'll find that the Model Two is actually more efficient than the Ones. The downside is that as you travel up the range, they require more and more capable amplification that can better grip and control the speaker. As an example, I once struggled to find amplification that could tame the Model 4.2 (huge beasts), which led me to Bryston's 7B monoblocks, which I couldn't afford at the time.

What you have witnessed with your centre speaker is better amplification doing a better job of driving it, and you're hearing what it is really capable of. I think the majority of people have never hear what their speakers are really capable of.

Realistically, my limit would have to be £2000 on the front three speakers, but anything not invested in the speakers could go to better surrounds and/or a contribution to my next AV amp upgrade.

I guess my question is are the older Kef Reference speakers that much better than the latest R series etc.. and how well suited would they be to my Cyrus kit?

Beware talk of Reference being easy to drive. Yes, they are generally very efficient, but they are a demanding load in respect to their impedance, so need stable and dynamic amplification. Yes, you can drive them with a 30wpc integrated amplifier, and to many, that would sound fine and perfectly listenable, but the amplifier would more than likely end up suffering from various issues associated with reaching its limits. My guess would be that half the hi-fi systems in the UK are using insufficient amplification, resulting in underperforming loudspeakers. Reasons? Other than blaming bad dealer advice from those out to make a quick buck, the internet has played its part, as many are not seeking genuine advice and buying online bargains, with no thought for compatibility or suitability. Speaker/amplifier matching isn't necessarily voodoo or dark science, it just takes common sense and some listening sessions.

I'd say you're better off looking at the R Series. After 25 years, the UniQ has now evolved into something which seems to be as good as you'll get - the current UniQ was born from the Concept Blade (which if you don't know was a 'no holds barred' design, much like concept cars), and is leaps and bounds better than older versions. The R Series will be more in line with the amplification that you have too, which means you won't be 'stretching' the abilities of your current amplification. You'll find that the R700, for example, is better in many areas than the Reference range you are referring to, such is progress. Better off axis response (and therefore better imaging), lower distortion, better driver to driver integration etc etc, and like the Blade, the R Series tries to emulate that "apparent point source" wherever possible, further enhancing imaging accuracy.

The Tannoy Precision range is also well worth looking at, as they share some similar attributes to the KEF speakers, so should be an easy transition for you.

 

[nathanc]

Thanks for your comments David.

I suspected the Kef R and Tannoy Precision ranges with their modern design would probably be a more suitable match although I had no idea that my Cyrus Mono amps might not be sufficient to get the best out of Kef Ref speakers :O

To be honest, my interest in the Kef Reference speakers is more of a romantic notion - my Dad had the old 104ab speakers which I grew up on and around the time I bought my Q35s (over a decade ago!), one of my mates had a pair of Ref Model One for a little driven by a (new at the time) Tag Maclaren Pre Power combo - I remember being very impressed.

What you have witnessed with your centre speaker is better amplification doing a better job of driving it, and you're hearing what it is really capable of. I think the majority of people have never hear what their speakers are really capable of.

I expect I am witnesing this right now with my Kef Q35s - I am getting the best out of them right now :cheers:

I just need to wait for my local Sevenoaks to start stocking Kefs again!

 

[Frank Harvey]

Thanks for your comments David.

I suspected the Kef R and Tannoy Precision ranges with their modern design would probably be a more suitable match although I had no idea that my Cyrus Mono amps might not be sufficient to get the best out of Kef Ref speakers :O

For KEF Reference, I'd be recommending the newer X Series of Cyrus power amps (X200 and X300), which are a fair step above any of their stereo power amplifiers being used as mono amps. Certainly they will drive the Reference Model Two, and like my example, they may sound great, but they won't be allowing them to sound as they have been designed.

 

[peterpan]

I've been reading around and quite like the look of the new Kef R series and the new Tannoy Precision however I'm wondering if I might be better off picking up a Kef Reference Model Two - I've read they are quite easy to drive although I doubt the Cyrus amps would struggle to drive the Model Ones. The benefit here is that they would nicely match my current centre... for an experiment I drove it from one of the Cyrus smartpowers in mono and it came alive!

As with all ranges, the entry level standmounts and floorstanders are the least efficient, so you'll find that the Model Two is actually more efficient than the Ones. The downside is that as you travel up the range, they require more and more capable amplification that can better grip and control the speaker. As an example, I once struggled to find amplification that could tame the Model 4.2 (huge beasts), which led me to Bryston's 7B monoblocks, which I couldn't afford at the time.

What you have witnessed with your centre speaker is better amplification doing a better job of driving it, and you're hearing what it is really capable of. I think the majority of people have never hear what their speakers are really capable of.

Realistically, my limit would have to be £2000 on the front three speakers, but anything not invested in the speakers could go to better surrounds and/or a contribution to my next AV amp upgrade.

I guess my question is are the older Kef Reference speakers that much better than the latest R series etc.. and how well suited would they be to my Cyrus kit?

Beware talk of Reference being easy to drive. Yes, they are generally very efficient, but they are a demanding load in respect to their impedance, so need stable and dynamic amplification. Yes, you can drive them with a 30wpc integrated amplifier, and to many, that would sound fine and perfectly listenable, but the amplifier would more than likely end up suffering from various issues associated with reaching its limits. My guess would be that half the hi-fi systems in the UK are using insufficient amplification, resulting in underperforming loudspeakers. Reasons? Other than blaming bad dealer advice from those out to make a quick buck, the internet has played its part, as many are not seeking genuine advice and buying online bargains, with no thought for compatibility or suitability. Speaker/amplifier matching isn't necessarily voodoo or dark science, it just takes common sense and some listening sessions.

I'd say you're better off looking at the R Series. After 25 years, the UniQ has now evolved into something which seems to be as good as you'll get - the current UniQ was born from the Concept Blade (which if you don't know was a 'no holds barred' design, much like concept cars), and is leaps and bounds better than older versions. The R Series will be more in line with the amplification that you have too, which means you won't be 'stretching' the abilities of your current amplification. You'll find that the R700, for example, is better in many areas than the Reference range you are referring to, such is progress. Better off axis response (and therefore better imaging), lower distortion, better driver to driver integration etc etc, and like the Blade, the R Series tries to emulate that "apparent point source" wherever possible, further enhancing imaging accuracy.

The Tannoy Precision range is also well worth looking at, as they share some similar attributes to the KEF speakers, so should be an easy transition for you.

kef reference model two still far and far better than kef r which are on the bright side. Like most modern speakers. It hurt your ears with rock and metal. Kef reference have a very fine warm sound and fine listenable highs. These are the latest real kefs. Today it is all bright, bright, bright.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Peterpan says:kef reference model two still far and far better than kef r which are on the bright side. Like most modern speakers. It hurt your ears with rock and metal. Kef reference have a very fine warm sound and fine listenable highs. These are the latest real kefs. Today it is all bright, bright, bright

I say:Either your amp is not suited or you have a very bad suited listening room.

I listen to metel mostly and it never hurts my ears or sounds harsh or bright. Highly detailed yes, clear yes but not what your claiming.

In fact the r series has a rolled off top end. I bet the reference is even more revealing and clearer on top. The tonal character of my r series is very well balanced.

Of course one mans perfect is another mans rubbish but i listened to loads of different speakers and the r series were the fullest.

You want to check your amp and furnishings

 

[jjbomber]

Realisticly, my limit would have to be £2000 on the front three speakers, but anything not invested in the speakers could go to better surrounds and/or a contribution to my next AV amp upgrade.

I would start at the AV amp and work backwards. I would start looking for a second hand Naim n-Vi and snap one up when you find one. I would go with the Reference speakers all round . It depend what your priorities are; music v films.