Kef R900 V Kef Reference 1

[kb29r]

Due to my setup going into a new room I have limited space for my brilliant R900's and require speakers to be put on a solid table top shelf with my 2 channel set up - I'm hoping that someone has compared the above speakers - Lower bass duties would not be massivly important as I have a very decent subwoofer - I have before tried the R300's listening to audio on a desktop and the sound was very immersive - I seemed to have lost that with the R900's due to them being placed a lot wider than I did with the R300's

However the R900 has a bigger soundstage than the R300's so was wandering if the Reference 1's would improve things more than I have at the moment which is pretty excellent to be honest

Your thoughts

 

[CnoEvil]

The Ref 1s are absolutely superb and in a different league to the R900s...but....the rest of your system has to be up to scratch.

Though they will match a greater variety of amps with different sonic signatures than the previous Refs, they will highlight any deficiencies in the system downstream of them...think Majik DS and expensive Devialet/Classe/Bryston.

If your system doesn't reach such esoteric heights, you may be better looking at smaller R Series....demoing is a must.

 

[kb29r]

The Ref 1s are absolutely superb and in a different league to the R900s...but....the rest of your system has to be up to scratch.

Though they will match a greater variety of amps with different sonic signatures than the previous Refs, they will highlight any deficiencies in the system downstream of them...think Majik DS and expensive Devialet/Classe/Bryston.

If your system doesn't reach such esoteric heights, you may be better looking at smaller R Series....demoing is a must.

I have Parasound Halo JC1's, Chord Hugo TT, JL Audio Fathom Subwoofer

I will definately go and compare them first - the only real complaint of the R series to me was that listening with higher volume, the treble was sometimes a little piercing

 

[CnoEvil]

You certainly have enough power, though it concerns me that you find the treble a little piercing with the R Series. I would probably lay the blame with the Hugo. I think your source needs to be more in keeping with the cost of the rest of the system.

I recently went to a demo evening that included Arcam A49 with Ref 1s and Ref 3s. The problem was that the best source used was the new Arcam CD/Streamer. When the volume was turned up, the sound got a little harsh. I have heard the same system with a Linn Akurate DS. The result was so good, that I talked about it on here. I strongly suspect the Arcam Source was being exposed.

As a system gets more highend, it needs to remain "in balance", which includes the source.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Well your system will certainly allow the Reference 1 to show their superiority over the R900s. They'll work much better in stands, but needs must. I'm about to use LS50s on some cheap IKEA furniture - not because I want to, but because I just don't have the floor space for the Atacama HMS2.1 stands I used on my previous set. If they end up sounding below par on the furniture, I'll have to rethink and use the stands again. You may need to look into something to isolate the speaker from the furniture.

 

[kb29r]

You certainly have enough power, though it concerns me that you find the treble a little piercing with the R Series. I would probably lay the blame with the Hugo. I think your source needs to be more in keeping with the cost of the rest of the system.

I recently went to a demo evening that included Arcam A49 with Ref 1s and Ref 3s. The problem was that the best source used was the new Arcam CD/Streamer. When the volume was turned up, the sound got a little harsh. I have heard the same system with a Linn Akurate DS. The result was so good, that I talked about it on here. I strongly suspect the Arcam Source was being exposed.

As a system gets more highend, it needs to remain "in balance", which includes the source.

I could take the Hugo along with me when I dem the Reference 1's to see if the TT is to blame although would be suprised if it was the culprit - its not a massive criticism but its there on certain tracks - my source is mainly JRiver via imac

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. Every link in the chain "can" effect the sound, so worth doing...but while you are there, get them connect something different (and "better"). My choice would, of course, be a Linn DS, if they have it...or something from Electrocompaniet/Pathos/Audio Research/ Mark Levinson.

Let us know how it goes.

EDIT. If you are serious about the Ref 1s, make sure you get a home dem, as putting them on anything but their own stands, "may" have a serious impact on their performance. Don't rule out the LS50s, which with your amp and Sub, should sound stunning...and save a fortune.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I find many people want to sort out similar issues with their systems. The problem usually lies with the source material, and whilst you can find speakers that will take the occasional "sharp" note, but then you find that 95% of the rest of the material you own suddenly sounds dull and boring. I'd rather live with a system that has the occasional harsh note that sounds great with the rest of everything else I have.

Speakers generally tend to pass on to you what they're given by the system (as should be the case), but one or two speakers do tend to have a natural tendency towards a brighter treble. I can't see the brightness being introduced by the Hugo.

 

[kb29r]

IMO. Every link in the chain "can" effect the sound, so worth doing...but while you are there, get them connect something different (and "better"). My choice would, of course, be a Linn DS, if they have it...or something from Electrocompaniet/Pathos/Audio Research/ Mark Levinson.

Let us know how it goes.

EDIT. If you are serious about the Ref 1s, make sure you get a home dem, as putting them on anything but their own stands, "may" have a serious impact on their performance.

Absolutley, I will try them at home before shedding out the cash - I will keep you posted - The white paper of the Ref 1's do suggest shelf/standmounted - as stated, I have tried the R300's shelf mounted and thought they were superb - the dealer has the R900's R300's, Ls50's and Ref 1's so should be an interesting afternoon..

 

[CnoEvil]

I can't see the brightness being introduced by the Hugo.

I didn't expect anything Arcam to introduce brightness. I had heard the same system with a different (much more expensive) source and the harshness wasn't there....it could have been the very expensive AudioQuest cabling, which was the only other change...but I doubt it. The folk setting up the dem the previous day had tried the system with an Akurate DS and the hardness was absent.

 

[CnoEvil]

Absolutley, I will try them at home before shedding out the cash - I will keep you posted - The white paper of the Ref 1's do suggest  shelf/standmounted - as stated, I have tried the R300's shelf mounted and thought they were superb - the dealer has the R900's R300's, Ls50's and Ref 1's so should be an interesting afternoon..

Make sure the dealer dems the LS50s with a Sub of similar quality to your own.

 

[Frank Harvey]

After trying the older Qute HD at home a few years ago, I found it didn't exhibit any harshness issues - everything was clean, clear, sweet, and sounding very 'delicate' as I like to call it - almost like other DACs introduce a smearing effect that exaggerates notes, rendering them unable to reproduce the tiniest of higher frequency noises.

Since then I've also found that the Classe Sigma is very similar, so I have no doubt that the Linn may be in this category, but I would also put the Hugo in this category too (the Hugo technology came after the Qute HD).

 

[CnoEvil]

Since I haven't heard it and you have, I reluctantly bow to your first hand knowledge...though I have heard previous expensive Chord DACs (64 and 76) and didn't like them much.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi kb29r

Which JL Audio Fathom sub have you got please?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[kb29r]

Well your system will certainly allow the Reference 1 to show their superiority over the R900s. They'll work much better in stands, but needs must. I'm about to use LS50s on some cheap IKEA furniture - not because I want to, but because I just don't have the floor space for the Atacama HMS2.1 stands I used on my previous set. If they end up sounding below par on the furniture, I'll have to rethink and use the stands again. You may need to look into something to isolate the speaker from the furniture.

Hi David, in what way will you feel they will be superior? - The Shelf I plan to build will house all my equipment and will be solid - any suggestions on isolation from the shelf?

I think you may be right in regards to certain music sounding harsh bright (reliant on the recording producer) and I'm with you with regards to the TT not being the culprit here - I just want to be clear here that I could happily live with the R900's if room was not a deciding factor - they sound superb and are most likely critical of certain recordings produced by an idiot

 

[Frank Harvey]

Since I haven't heard it and you have, I reluctantly bow to your first hand knowledge...though I have heard previous expensive Chord DACs (64 and 76) and didn't like them much.

I'm happy to add to the list of extremely high quality DACs I like, but as it stands, the Chord and Classe are top of that list for me. I like a nice detailed sound though, nothing held back, and although I don't like harshness, I can put up with it on the few occasions I come across it. I usually use the Red Hot Chili Peppers' Give It Away as a tester as to how well a system or speakers deal with harshness.

 

[kb29r]

Hi kb29r

Which JL Audio Fathom sub have you got please?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick, its the fabulous f113

Ken

 

[kb29r]

Don't rule out the LS50s, which with your amp and Sub, should sound stunning...and save a fortune.

a lovely option!

 

[CnoEvil]

 Don't rule out the LS50s, which with your amp and Sub, should sound stunning...and save a fortune.

a lovely option!

I am lucky enough to have LS50s and Ref 205/2s...I could happily live with LS50s, driven by a great amp and a well set up, quality Sub. That's the biggest complement I can pay them.

To get them singing, you will need to isolate them effectively from the wooden top in your room.

There are expensive solutions from Track Audio and Townshend Audio and a cheaper one from Auralex.

 

[kb29r]

Don't rule out the LS50s, which with your amp and Sub, should sound stunning...and save a fortune.

a lovely option!

I am lucky enough to have LS50s and Ref 205/2s...I could happily live with LS50s, driven by a great amp and a well set up, quality Sub. That's the biggest complement I can pay them.

To get them singing, you will need to isolate them effectively from the wooden top in your room.

There are expensive solutions from Track Audio and Townshend Audio and a cheaper one from Auralex.

I did previously demo the Ls50 and the R300 and actually prefered the R300 although it was with a Quad Vena.. just had a look at the Auralex and yes the others are expensive but look the dogs..

The shelf/table top will be made out of concrete slabs - not wood, you will get my drift soon enough

 

[CnoEvil]

I did previously demo the Ls50 and the R300 and actually prefered the R300 although it was with a Quad Vena.. just had a look at the Auralex and yes the others are expensive but look the dogs..

The shelf/table top will be made out of concrete slabs - not wood, you will get my drift soon enough

If you like what the Ref 1s do, the LS50s would be a closer match, with the sub providing the missing scale.

A concrete shelf could work quite well.

 

[kb29r]

Had a great Demo today at Audio Affair In Birmingham - First up was the Kef Ref 1's - they had the same dna of my R900's they had tremendous clarity with good depth from a Standmounter - I then tried some Proac D2's - wow - I was impressed with these! they sounded so smooth in the high frequencies - they were a joy

I then tried the LS50's and sounded excellent also with incredible depth from such a small box -

I could of walked out the shop with any of these and be happy for years to come - However I would be happiest with the LS50 due to their unbelievable price differential with the other two I tried

I then came home and listened to my R900's and soon realized that I already posses an extraordinary Loudspeaker and feel that I would be going backwards or sidewards

I will try the LS50 and the Proac D2 at home with my Subwoofer but feel the R900 will be staying due to their headroom /output capabilities..

 

[CnoEvil]

Glad you had an interesting time....I thought keeping the R900s was not an option, but if it is, then keeping what you have sounds sensible.

What source did you use in your demos?

 

[kb29r]

Glad you had an interesting time....I thought keeping the R900s was not an option, but if it is, then keeping what you have sounds sensible.

What source did you use in your demos?

Keeping the R900's is an option but its a little cramped but I may stick with them - Dared Saturn amp dac/hi res music

 

[CnoEvil]

Glad you had an interesting time....I thought keeping the R900s was not an option, but if it is, then keeping what you have sounds sensible.

What source did you use in your demos?

Keeping the R900's is an option but its a little cramped but I may stick with them - Dared Saturn amp dac/hi res music

?

 

Lovely amp, which may have suited the Proacs better than the Kefs, as they are more "Tube Friendly".