Japanese brands

[plastic penguin]

Chatting to a hi-fi enthusiast in the boozer the other day, while reading the reviews of the latest Yamaha integrated.

I said to him it's strange that many entry-level Japanese brands tend to get rave reviews, but the further you go up their price scale good reviews tend to get thin on the ground.

Marantz is a good example: go up to the Pearl lite, 8003 or 8005 they generally are lukewarm at best, likewise with Yamaha and Pioneer.

The only viable explanation I can offer is that over the last 20 years or so they've been big players in the multi-channel market.

I've always liked brands such as Pioneer and Marantz and Denon tuners.

I remember a year or so comments were made on why high end Marantzes aren't as popular as their European or British contemporaries in a similar price bracket.

Discuss.

 

[jjbomber]

I remember a year or so comments were made on why high end Marantzes aren't as popular as their European or British contemporaries in a similar price bracket.

Discuss.

The KI range always got rave reviews, but I guess since Ken passed away they miss a figurehead.

 

[hifi]

I thought about this many times and thought it was just me .Marketing i guess .

 

[daytona600]

Pioneer and Marantz and Denon are all American

Masimo Leading Developer of Premium Consumer Sound and Home Integration Technologies
headquarters in Carlsbad, California
Bowers & Wilkins®, Denon®, Polk Audio®, Marantz®, Definitive Technology®, Classé®, and Boston Acoustics®

 

[plastic penguin]

The KI range always got rave reviews, but I guess since Ken passed away they miss a figurehead.

I demoed the 7001KI and it sounded good, but it seems IME further up the chain you go these Japanese brands tend to sound smoother or warmer

 

[plastic penguin]

Pioneer and Marantz and Denon are all American

Masimo Leading Developer of Premium Consumer Sound and Home Integration Technologies
headquarters in Carlsbad, California
Bowers & Wilkins®, Denon®, Polk Audio®, Marantz®, Definitive Technology®, Classé®, and Boston Acoustics®

Arcam were owned by a Chinese, then owned an American company. I still class Arcam as British.

 

[nopiano]

Pioneer and Marantz and Denon are all American

Masimo Leading Developer of Premium Consumer Sound and Home Integration Technologies
headquarters in Carlsbad, California
Bowers & Wilkins®, Denon®, Polk Audio®, Marantz®, Definitive Technology®, Classé®, and Boston Acoustics®

Saul Marantz was aYank. Pioneer and Denon are Japanese heritage. And B&W are still in Worthing, UK. Whoever owns them now is immaterial.

 

[aversaurus]

Old but still the best Japanese brand ever classic amplifier's still command good money sansui

 

[Al ears]

Old but still the best Japanese brand ever classic amplifier's still command good money sansui

Along with Japanese brands that are actually still made in Japan, Accuphase etc

 

[nopiano]

Old but still the best Japanese brand ever classic amplifier's still command good money sansui

Such a shame they folded. I know the name was resurrected briefly, but they had their own ideas, like Accuphase that Al mentioned.

 

[manicm]

Pioneer and Marantz and Denon are all American

Masimo Leading Developer of Premium Consumer Sound and Home Integration Technologies
headquarters in Carlsbad, California
Bowers & Wilkins®, Denon®, Polk Audio®, Marantz®, Definitive Technology®, Classé®, and Boston Acoustics®

They're owned by an American conglomerate, but Denon still is engineered, and the higher end components manufactured, in Japan.

Marantz is a grey area. Originally American, then Japanese designed?

 

[nopiano]

On PP’s original point, I think that ultimately brands tend to become expert at a particular market level or price point. Marantz, one of my favourites, have been exotic, budget and most points in between at some time in their history. Their volume business in the UK in the last decade or two has definitely been in the budget range.

Yamaha have a strangely condensed range of amps under a grand - at least four models. All very decent I’m sure, yet rather overlapping. But they’ve ditched CD players beyond budget level now, whereas they once made luxurious SACD machines.

Not Japanese, but as an illustration :- When I bought a Krell integrated amp in the 1990s it was only ‘just’ affordable because it was actually designed for AV. Their stuff has always been high end. Luxman briefly made affordable gear, but it was mostly junk. Now they’ve gone back to serious, almost exotic stuff.

I think it’s similar with cars, and probably other product lines. It’s hard to take seriously a brand that gets aspirations - hence Toyota created Lexus, though Nissan did less well with Infiniti. Back to Hifi, and Cambridge is a great budget brand, yet their Edge kit is seriously high performance. But it doesn’t have the cachet to attract the buyers it need, I suspect.

 

[plastic penguin]

On PP’s original point, I think that ultimately brands tend to become expert at a particular market level or price point. Marantz, one of my favourites, have been exotic, budget and most points in between at some time in their history. Their volume business in the UK in the last decade or two has definitely been in the budget range.

Yamaha have a strangely condensed range of amps under a grand - at least four models. All very decent I’m sure, yet rather overlapping. But they’ve ditched CD players beyond budget level now, whereas they once made luxurious SACD machines.

Not Japanese, but as an illustration :- When I bought a Krell integrated amp in the 1990s it was only ‘just’ affordable because it was actually designed for AV. Their stuff has always been high end. Luxman briefly made affordable gear, but it was mostly junk. Now they’ve gone back to serious, almost exotic stuff.

I think it’s similar with cars, and probably other product lines. It’s hard to take seriously a brand that gets aspirations - hence Toyota created Lexus, though Nissan did less well with Infiniti. Back to Hifi, and Cambridge is a great budget brand, yet their Edge kit is seriously high performance. But it doesn’t have the cachet to attract the buyers it need, I suspect.

Sounds about right NP. Do you not think, also, unlike other brands from the 2000s onwards they concentrated too much on all things AV, such as receivers, DVD/Bluray players etc etc and took their collective eyes off their two channel market?

When I've looked back through Whfi mags from 2004, Japanese brands seemed to dominate the multi-channel market.

 

[nopiano]

Yes, I’d forgotten the obsession with AV and other ‘not stereo’ systems. I still think of Hifi meaning good ole stereo, but AV stuff was - and might still be - big business.

 

[plastic penguin]

Yes, I’d forgotten the obsession with AV and other ‘not stereo’ systems. I still think of Hifi meaning good ole stereo, but AV stuff was - and might still be - big business.

Yep. Hi-fi = stereo.

I've browsed through some old mags and the AV stuff is dominated in the main by Yamaha, Sony, Denon and Onkyo.

How many of those have really shone in the stereo market? It's patchy at best, and I don't think Sony make anymore two channel equipment, if they do you never read about them over recent years.

 

[Gray]

I don't think Sony make anymore two channel equipment

It's a shame they don't - because whatever they turn their hand to is often good.
My old 561E CDP is still great - the 761E was supposed to be even better.
Their flagship minidisc player was (still is) excellent - and I've still got a nice 3-head cassette deck of theirs.

 

[plastic penguin]

It's a shame they don't - because whatever they turn their hand to is often good.
My old 561E CDP is still great - the 761E was supposed to be even better.
Their flagship minidisc player was (still is) excellent - and I've still got a nice 3-head cassette deck of theirs.

They were influential back in the day. But I believe they had fingers in too many pies. You can only split your finances so far.

Always make great TVs and DVD/Bluray players.

Occasionally used to visit Sony stores. Their hi-fi speakers weren't too shabby sounding either.

Seem to remember @matthewpianist used to work in one of their shops.

 

[twinkletoes]

They were influential back in the day. But I believe they had fingers in too many pies. You can only split your finances so far.

Always make great TVs and DVD/Bluray players.

Occasionally used to visit Sony stores. Their hi-fi speakers weren't too shabby sounding either.

Seem to remember @matthewpianist used to work in one of their shops.

They still are when they want to be but they got complacent, it should have been them not apple come up with the next big portable device
But Sony know where there bread is buttered these days and that’s Silico, camera sensors is there big thing now. Really only camera company the make there own sensors is canon the rest are Sony even cameras like Hasselblad and phase one.

They still make the odd audio 2 channel device there headphone amp they made was a money no object design.

Bose (I know there not Japanese) don’t care about the consumer market they have the monopoly over big venue/ concert sound systems and the aviation sector

Heck Samsung ( again I know they’re not Japanese)make tvs for the heck of it really. Their bread and butter is in the military sector and their construction arm. They built the Burj Khalifa for example.

My point is you have to remember these brands make other high end things Yamaha, marantz pianos and instruments, pioneer Dj equipment for example that’s where they really make their money. Hi fi to them is just play time/a hobby for companies that really make no money for them really.

Thats my little ramble.

 

[plastic penguin]

They still are when they want to be but they got complacent, it should have been them not apple come up with the next big portable device
But Sony know where there bread is buttered these days and that’s Silico, camera sensors is there big thing now. Really only camera company the make there own sensors is canon the rest are Sony even cameras like Hasselblad and phase one.

They still make the odd audio 2 channel device there headphone amp they made was a money no object design.

Bose (I know there not Japanese) don’t care about the consumer market they have the monopoly over big venue/ concert sound systems and the aviation sector

Heck Samsung ( again I know they’re not Japanese)make tvs for the heck of it really. Their bread and butter is in the military sector and their construction arm. They built the Burj Khalifa for example.

My point is you have to remember these brands make other high end things Yamaha, marantz pianos and instruments, pioneer Dj equipment for example that’s where they really make their money. Hi fi to them is just play time/a hobby for companies that really make no money for them really.

Thats my little ramble.

I know about their other exploits, think Sony still make turntables.

It's like saying Rega make amps, CDPs and Dacs when originally they only made turntables, back in the very early days. I still think of them as turntable makers even though they now have a good reputation making amps and the digital sources.

 

[newworld]

Well, contrary to what might be categorized as bias, if I had $3k to spend (which I do consider high-end), I'm getting the new Marantz n30 integrated and not even glancing over at the Rega Elicit mk5. The reason being, every Rega unit I've demoed and owned has been faulty in one way or another. So I'm actually the opposite. I will buy budget European gear because I love the marketing hype and won't be losing much money on the used market. But if I decide to put a big chunk of my income into some serious gear, then I will go Japanese all day, any day.

 

[WayneKerr]

I guess to the purists they're seen as jack of all, masters of none, as they have products in so many different market sectors and at multiple levels of entry, a scatter-gun approach. Other exotic brands are seen as masters of one sector - 2-channel stereo and as such can command high prices.

As the brands reference-level models approach the price of exotic kit I guess the exotic brands will always win-out due to the nature of their business model - concentrating on one sector of the market only, and able to command higher prices too as they are seen as masters of that sector.

I can only comment on Marantz as that's all I've owned over the last 12 years but every one of them has been made in Japan. Not that "made in" means much these days as the components are probably sourced from China, regardless of brand.

The entry-level PM/CD6004 I had was good at its job, the Pearl Lites were an anti-climax, the Ruby pair I currently own do not disappoint.

 

[matthewpianist]

They were influential back in the day. But I believe they had fingers in too many pies. You can only split your finances so far.

Always make great TVs and DVD/Bluray players.

Occasionally used to visit Sony stores. Their hi-fi speakers weren't too shabby sounding either.

Seem to remember @matthewpianist used to work in one of their shops.

Yes, I worked across two Sony Centres, both under the same franchisee. We sold everything - VAIO, Cybershot, Handycam, Bravia, home theatre, Playstation, 2-channel audio... It was extremely rare to come across issues with any product, and pretty much everything performed well or very well at its price-point. Ultimately Sony is a business and 2-channel simply wasn't profitable enough for them any longer. Similarly they brought the Sony Centre concept to a close as franchisees either went into administration or simply made a decision to exit. Sony found it much easier to sell in higher quantities to big multi-channel retailers.

I think the point about some Japanese manufacturers becoming known more for AV than stereo is a good one at the lower end of their ranges, but Denon, Yamaha and Marantz have all managed to maintain strong high-end 2-channel ranges and do it very well. I was at Yamaha Music London with work last week and heard a Yamaha system that came to £50k, including a turntable which in itself was £9k with an Ortofon Quintet Black. It was beautifully built kit, and had a wonderfully balanced and full sound right across the frequency range.

Onkyo and Pioneer are much more difficult to quantify these days, especially given their financial problems. There's very little availability of either brand at present and I'm not sure that Onkyo is even currently operating. Distribution and promotion for both brands has been sketchy in the UK for quite some time, and neither has had a serious place in the 2-channel market here in the UK in recent years. This is very sad, especially with regard to Pioneer which sat alongside Sansui as a huge Japanese presence in the UK audio market in the 1970s. Also look at JVC and Akai!!

Technics is an interesting case. Panasonic withdrew the name for a period of time, and I think that even extended to the DD turntables at one point. They must have recently seen more of a market for the brand given the resurgence of not only the turntables but also amplification, CD/streaming sources, all-in-ones such as my SC-C70mk2 and even speakers. Perhaps someone will take heed and re-invest in some of the other Japanese brands.

 

[plastic penguin]

I guess to the purists they're seen as jack of all, masters of none, as they have products in so many different market sectors and at multiple levels of entry, a scatter-gun approach. Other exotic brands are seen as masters of one sector - 2-channel stereo and as such can command high prices.

As the brands reference-level models approach the price of exotic kit I guess the exotic brands will always win-out due to the nature of their business model - concentrating on one sector of the market only, and able to command higher prices too as they are seen as masters of that sector.

I can only comment on Marantz as that's all I've owned over the last 12 years but every one of them has been made in Japan. Not that "made in" means much these days as the components are probably sourced from China, regardless of brand.

The entry-level PM/CD6004 I had was good at its job, the Pearl Lites were an anti-climax, the Ruby pair I currently own do not disappoint.

As you know Doug I'm a fan of Marantz but only heard as far up as the PM 8005. Having heard the 600 something the 8005 sounded smoother.

Remember someone a year or so ago (@Al ears or @nopiano ) that Marantz high end stuff tends to lack the respect of brands from elsewhere. It's a shame.

 

[plastic penguin]

Yes, I worked across two Sony Centres, both under the same franchisee. We sold everything - VAIO, Cybershot, Handycam, Bravia, home theatre, Playstation, 2-channel audio... It was extremely rare to come across issues with any product, and pretty much everything performed well or very well at its price-point. Ultimately Sony is a business and 2-channel simply wasn't profitable enough for them any longer. Similarly they brought the Sony Centre concept to a close as franchisees either went into administration or simply made a decision to exit. Sony found it much easier to sell in higher quantities to big multi-channel retailers.

I think the point about some Japanese manufacturers becoming known more for AV than stereo is a good one at the lower end of their ranges, but Denon, Yamaha and Marantz have all managed to maintain strong high-end 2-channel ranges and do it very well. I was at Yamaha Music London with work last week and heard a Yamaha system that came to £50k, including a turntable which in itself was £9k with an Ortofon Quintet Black. It was beautifully built kit, and had a wonderfully balanced and full sound right across the frequency range.

Onkyo and Pioneer are much more difficult to quantify these days, especially given their financial problems. There's very little availability of either brand at present and I'm not sure that Onkyo is even currently operating. Distribution and promotion for both brands has been sketchy in the UK for quite some time, and neither has had a serious place in the 2-channel market here in the UK in recent years. This is very sad, especially with regard to Pioneer which sat alongside Sansui as a huge Japanese presence in the UK audio market in the 1970s. Also look at JVC and Akai!!

Technics is an interesting case. Panasonic withdrew the name for a period of time, and I think that even extended to the DD turntables at one point. They must have recently seen more of a market for the brand given the resurgence of not only the turntables but also amplification, CD/streaming sources, all-in-ones such as my SC-C70mk2 and even speakers. Perhaps someone will take heed and re-invest in some of the other Japanese brands.

Used to enjoy browing around their Epsom branch - loved the smell of those shops.