Is bi-wiring better?

[peterpan]

I can bi-wiring my KEF R500. Of course the dealer told this will improve the sound. But is this true?

 

[mr malarky]

Good question PP, have biwired for years ever since getting into home cinema and always on the recommendation of dealers, but am ashamed to say I've never taken the time to try single wiring as an alternative and have read some views that single wiring improves 'cohesion'.

Anyone out there tried switching between the two and have any feedback?

Same question about bi-amping?

 

[eggontoast]

IME no, I've never noticed any appreciable difference after bi-wiring. Bi-amping is a better option and there are gains to be had going down this route.

 

[GSB]

If the bi-amping is done with an integrated amp and an avr i can imagine this would benefit av,but would it be so for hifi?

 

[Pete68]

I think in some cases bi wiring can make some subtle differences it just depend on the speakers being used. Just because a manufacturer provides four terminals it doesn't necessarily mean that the speakers will sound better if bi wired. I used to tri wire my speakers and I found a little gain in the overall presentation.
On the other hand bi amping can make a huge difference. I bi amp my speakers which allows all of one amp to get a grip on the low end frequencies and the other to deliver the high frequencies. Much gain can be had from bi amping.

 

[CnoEvil]

If the bi-amping is done with an integrated amp and an avr i can imagine this would benefit av,but would it be so for hifi?

Bi-amping is usually beneficial, but is very different from Bi-wiring.

 

[CnoEvil]

Let him either show you with a demo, or lend you the cable to try for youself.

IMO. You will gain more by spending the money on better cable. I also like to replace the links (with short pieces of your S/C).....but I don't how how this might work with the R Series.

It is also possible the gain you "may" hear from Bi-wiring is down to removing the links from the equation.

People who believe cables make no difference, will tell you not to waste your time or money....but imo it is worth checking for yourself.

 

[tomlinscote]

Bi-amping is not normally done with AV, usually with stereo amps prob because it is easeir to get a power amp to match the stereo amp But it is possible, you have to get a power anmp that will match the gain of the power amp stage in the AV amp. This means finding out the gain of the AV amp, not somwthig usually mentioned in the specs, I had to ring up Onkyo service, helpful but it took them a few days to get me the info! Then used a Roksan Kandy power amp as you can trim the gain to match the AV amp. I then used the Roksan to power the bass drivers of the front channels (L and R) There are those who will say that using the AV for any music duties even pre-amp ones should be avoided but I thought it sounded good. As ever you have to set it up and try for yourself!!!

Tommo

 

[mr malarky]

Think my AV amp supports biamping if not all the surround channels are used (which they're not currently). I'll dig out the manual later and see what it says.

 

[GSB]

Excuse my lack of knoledge(ignorance)but i have a question :?

If the avr(high freq)-integrated(low feq)are used,then i was to turn off the avr and reset the link on the speakers would the integrated send the signal as if single wired..as normal?

 

[abacus]

Split terminals on speakers are designed for Bi-amp, if you bi-wire you are adding possible variables (Resistance, Inductance, capacitance etc.) of the cable that was not envisaged by the designer, thus possibly affecting how the speaker operates. (If you’re using a 2 channel amp always single wire and keep the links in)

Bi-amp (4 channels into 2 speakers) has benefits as it isolates the upper and lower crossovers from each other thus reducing the possibility of interference between upper and lower.

A lot of AV amps allow you to use any unused channels for bi-amp, and if available (And your speakers have separate terminals) always use it in preference over single wire.

Forget Bi-wiring as while it may alter the sound, it will not be as the designer intended, thus producing an inaccurate sound.

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[GSB]

Bill,i was told by a very trusted retailer that bi amping with my avr(using the spare suround back ch)would make no difference,could you expand on this,out of interest?

 

[CnoEvil]

Forget Bi-wiring as while it may alter the sound, it will not be as the designer intended, thus producing an inaccurate sound.

Hope this helps

Bill

Whereas I am somewhat sceptical about the benefits of Bi (Tri)-wiring, the Kef manual specifically shows how to do it, which they wouldn't do, if the designers felt it would be detrimental.

 

[CnoEvil]

I was told by a very trusted retailer that bi amping with my avr(using the spare suround back ch)would make no difference,could you expand on this,out of interest?

For you it's academic, as the benefits of using a good 2 channel amp are greater (imo).

It may depend on the particular amp and how expensive the speaker cable is, as to whether it's worth doing. With the AVR600, I felt there was possibly a small gain (clarity and control); though I can easily see why this Passive Bi-amping is controversial (I didn't spend much extra to do it).

It is nothing like as effective as Active Bi-amping (with Active Crossover).

 

[GSB]

So to get a worthwhile result a seperate power amp should be used to bi amp?(my oppologies for being a pain in the rear)

 

[CnoEvil]

So to get a worthwhile result a seperate power amp should be used to bi amp?(my oppologies for being a pain in the rear)

Hi-Fi is all about opinions, which often conflict.

.......and mine is that you need to take the AVR's Pre-amp out of the loop, for 2 channel, as it will be the weak link. You are likely to get an improvement, but maybe not a VFM one ie. compared to getting a stereo amp.

In your case, I think you have done the right thing, so I wouldn't worry.

 

[busb]

From what I've read rather than direct experience (of all but the last option) in order of increase in SQ & assuming a single Xover:

An active system where the amplification is part of the speakers.

A dicreet active system where the Xover is before the power amps.

(the 2nd option does have the benefit of more power amp choice & potentially more upgradeability)

Bi-amping where each driver has its own amplification but still uses the speakers Xovers.

Biiwiring where both runs to each speaker are connected together at the amplifier but the current drawn down each cable will be according to the demands of the Xover/drivers requirements. Most engineers will dismiss bi-wiring as there is no explanation how it could possibly work other than reducing the cable's resistance but increassing the capacitance & inductance at the same time. Both active combinations make the most sense on paper & I'm sure the owners of such systems will add that they sound better in practice also.

Although my current speakers are single wired with cable jumpers rather than the cheap & nasty supplied plates, I have experimented with bi-wring my Arros & previous speakers. My conclusions were that bi-wiring did improve imaging a bit but my Arros lost a little cohesion in the process (the sound across the frequencies sounded less well-integrated). Bi-wiring my factory-mod'd SL6s worked well & beyond my expectations. So how well bi-wiing works depends on the speakers & possibly also the amplifier (and whether or not science can explain stuff alters your perceptions).

Every dealer I've spoken with on the subject has always said the same: spend your money on better single runs of cable.

 

[abacus]

Bill,i was told by a very trusted retailer that bi amping with my avr(using the spare suround back ch)would make no difference,could you expand on this,out of interest?

A passive crossover consists of inductors, Capacitors and Resistors, and is chosen by the designer to get the best compromise with the drive units and cabinet.

As the HPF and LPF are connected together there will always be interaction between them, which the designer will try and alleviate as much as possible. (The more expensive speakers generally use better components for better compatibility)

When you separate the HPF and LPF you remove this interaction thus the HPF and LPF can do their own thing without interference so should therefore give a bit better sound. (How much will depend on the speakers and amps used)

The second part of the equation is the amp itself, if it is reproducing plenty of bass then it is consuming large amounts of power from the power supply which can affect how pure the power is for the rest of the frequency range, If you separate the bass and treble into their own channels there will less chance of them interfering with each other, (If you can use separate amps completely than you will reduce the interference even further) thus giving a much more controlled sound.

How much difference the above makes will be dependent on the speakers and amps used, but there will always be some difference.

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[mr malarky]

Bill,i was told by a very trusted retailer that bi amping with my avr(using the spare suround back ch)would make no difference,could you expand on this,out of interest?

A passive crossover consists of inductors, Capacitors and Resistors, and is chosen by the designer to get the best compromise with the drive units and cabinet.

As the HPF and LPF are connected together there will always be interaction between them, which the designer will try and alleviate as much as possible. (The more expensive speakers generally use better components for better compatibility)

When you separate the HPF and LPF you remove this interaction thus the HPF and LPF can do their own thing without interference so should therefore give a bit better sound. (How much will depend on the speakers and amps used)

The second part of the equation is the amp itself, if it is reproducing plenty of bass then it is consuming large amounts of power from the power supply which can affect how pure the power is for the rest of the frequency range, If you separate the bass and treble into their own channels there will less chance of them interfering with each other, (If you can use separate amps completely than you will reduce the interference even further) thus giving a much more controlled sound.

How much difference the above makes will be dependent on the speakers and amps used, but there will always be some difference.

Hope this helps

Bill

Thanks for this Bill, very helpful (not least because its very understandable for those of us less technically minded!). Having read the manual for my AV amp I have the option of biamping all three front channels. The front mains can be biamped using the front height channels (currently not in use) and the centre channel can be biamped using a rear surround channel (also not in use as am currently running 5.1). I will give it a go with just the front mains as am planning to go 7.1 with rear surrounds when we move house next year. Given that it means pulling the rack out and getting speaker cables resplit and re-resoldered I think this may be a bank holiday weekend job though!

 

[abacus]

Forget Bi-wiring as while it may alter the sound, it will not be as the designer intended, thus producing an inaccurate sound.

Hope this helps

Bill

Whereas I am somewhat sceptical about the benefits of Bi (Tri)-wiring, the Kef manual specifically shows how to do it, which they wouldn't do, if the designers felt it would be detrimental.

Unless the manufacture says that Bi-Wiring will improve the performance, then it is included purely for those that wish to experiment, and to reduce the chance of damage to the amplifier. (Getting your connection crossed (When you don’t understand what Bi Wiring is about) can cause damage to an amplifier)

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[GSB]

So to get a worthwhile result a seperate power amp should be used to bi amp?(my oppologies for being a pain in the rear)

Hi-Fi is all about opinions, which often conflict.

.......and mine is that you need to take the AVR's Pre-amp out of the loop, for 2 channel, as it will be the weak link. You are likely to get an improvement, but maybe not a VFM one ie. compared to getting a stereo amp.

In your case, I think you have done the right thing, so I wouldn't worry.

I'm not worrying,or even thinking of bi wiring bi amping or anything else bi :shifty:

I just want to understand the concept and how it can work,what is involved.

Great legable description Bill,just wish whfi would use yourself,cno and a few others to construct a few indepth sticky's,help us without the technical understanding out a great deal,plus then we may be able to construct question's that may even be of interest to you audiophiles