Interesting - PMC GB1i vs Mission 753 vs Mission 752

treesey

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May 18, 2015
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I know what you're going to say - rubbish source/amplifier so irrelevant - but....

Source - analogue output from Sony 555ESD
Amplifer - very good condition Arcam Delta 290.
Same cable, running out of SP1 and SP2, speakers next to one another, room is big rather than small.

Music - range - Kate Bush, Dire Straits, Coldplay, Pink Floyd Live, Steely Dan (remastered), Michael Jackson Break of Dawn and John Martyn Sweet little mystery...

Well here we go - the 753 is 'better', significantly.

Better imaging somewhat, and better vocals massively, the singer(s) step right up to the microphone and the spotlight shines on them - BUT with that slight harsh edge on the treble, on 'old' recordings/production such as the Cure especially, but when you compare with the GB1is it is there in the 753s on everything, yes even on Dire Straits Telegraph Road.

However, the 753s vocals and say piano resolve themselves into a clearer more realistic harmony, but that damned sibilance is overdone - and you can hear it everywhere because the GB1is don't have it.

In simple terms, comparing one after the other, imagine the GB1is have a thin veil in front of the treble...
..and then you switch to the 753s and you wish there was a thin veil :D

But the excellent production on the MJ songs, there is no real harshness - and my seventeen year old son, listening to Jacko, said the 753s 'bring his voice out more'.

Obviously the GB1i is a good speaker, and musically you wouldn't get fatigue from listening, but I have to fix the tweeter issue in the 753s.

This is a big surprise to me.

753-GB1i-1.jpg
 

plastic penguin

Well-known member
I know what you're going to say - rubbish source/amplifier so irrelevant - but....

Source - analogue output from Sony 555ESD
Amplifer - very good condition Arcam Delta 290.
Same cable, running out of SP1 and SP2, speakers next to one another, room is big rather than small.

Music - range - Kate Bush, Dire Straits, Coldplay, Pink Floyd Live, Steely Dan (remastered), Michael Jackson Break of Dawn and John Martyn Sweet little mystery...

Well here we go - the 753 is 'better', significantly.

Better imaging somewhat, and better vocals massively, the singer(s) step right up to the microphone and the spotlight shines on them - BUT with that slight harsh edge on the treble, on 'old' recordings/production such as the Cure especially, but when you compare with the GB1is it is there in the 753s on everything, yes even on Dire Straits Telegraph Road.

However, the 753s vocals and say piano resolve themselves into a clearer more realistic harmony, but that damned sibilance is overdone - and you can hear it everywhere because the GB1is don't have it.

In simple terms, comparing one after the other, imagine the GB1is have a thin veil in front of the treble...
..and then you switch to the 753s and you wish there was a thin veil :D

But the excellent production on the MJ songs, there is no real harshness - and my seventeen year old son, listening to Jacko, said the 753s 'bring his voice out more'.

Obviously the GB1i is a good speaker, and musically you wouldn't get fatigue from listening, but I have to fix the tweeter issue in the 753s.

This is a big surprise to me.

View attachment 3500
I wouldn't say any of your equipment is rubbish, and I'm a huge Arcam fan. Owned their amps and CDP, but I think the Delta is a little old now. It is 4 or 5 generations back.

My experience of the DB1i and my current TB2is doesnt have any veil to the presentation. The only explanation I can give is *perhaps* the amp isn't as open as more up to date models. The A85 or newer A39 would be a fairly big uplift over the Delta.
 
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treesey

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May 18, 2015
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Totally and I agree and am seriously contemplating the A39 to partner whatever I keep or get instead.

But this is a comparison - the veil is just my clumsy way of describing the difference. I'm not a writer.

To me, and my oafish 17 year old, the vocals/piano/etc is so much more realistic on the 753s..... I know, I know...
 

plastic penguin

Well-known member
You're certainly not a clumsy writer or a oaf. You can only convey what you hear, as we all do.

I know when I owned a cheap entry-level Arcam A65 Plus I home demoed the DB1is and the same amp with the original GB1 (not 'I' version) in a shop, it sounded cracking
 

treesey

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May 18, 2015
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I had to compare the 752s to the GB1is

Again, not what you'd expect - i.e. they are very similar, perhaps slightly deeper bass on the 752 (not boomy), and (again) better overall tonal balance on the GB1is, but listening carefully today it seems the treble on my 752s is not as unbalanced as on my 753s - which makes me think back again to the possibility that the cross overs have different (wrong) failed/something resistors on the 753s.

Vocals still slightly preferable on the 752s vs GB1i, but very marginal and only as they are presented slightly further forward, as you would picture the band in front of you, and 752s have a slightly brighter more urgent tone, which may well be more fatiguing over time.

Again - the GB1is are very musical, and importantly less muddled on for instance 'A message' by Coldplay - everything that's happening in a whirlwind around his vocals is clearer on the GB1is. But he's standing three inches further back from the microphone - as he (and the piano and the percussion) is on 'The Hardest Part'. Same with all of Kate's songs. Stand closer!

On my 290 in my living room.

Your mileage will vary.

three.JPG
 

bigfish786

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Jan 29, 2013
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If you are considering a new amp, look for one with tone controls, it’s probably the best way to tame a little sibilance, that and getting the tweeter a bit further from your ears, by raising the speakers a few inches you’ll be surprised how much it can change the sound.
 

12th Monkey

Moderator
Some older speakers were a bit more 'directional' in their treble output - have you tried altering the angle that they point in at? Probably not going to make much difference but maybe worth a try.
 

treesey

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May 18, 2015
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All good points - though the 290 has tone controls, but I'm just trying to establish a how things should/could be, and what I need to change to get the best sound - I shall certainly buy a new old amp, on the next level up, and 20? years 'better'.

But I'm surprised how good the old Missions are (except that goddam treble) against the GB1i.

source.JPG
 

bigfish786

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Jan 29, 2013
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I think you’ve probably reached the technical limits of all your gear. Whether it’s combined or as separate units.
there won’t be a magical introduction of something and all is good.
most likely, if you want better, or expect better, then you Will need to buy better.
how much, well that will depend on what it is exactly that you want.
 

record_spot

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May 30, 2015
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Must admit, having owned the 751 and the 752 in their original formats, I never heard harsh treble from them. Thought the range was Mission's finest hour however and that setup I had (Mission 752s, Sansui AU-217 and Marantz SA7001-KI) was terrific.
 
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treesey

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Thanks RS for that - as I said (somewhere) someone who serviced/took these apart back in the day found resistor changes/errors so I'm hoping I can do something to the electronics.

Do crossover components fail over time?

Is there a crossover specialist in the UK that I can send them to?
 
Thanks RS for that - as I said (somewhere) someone who serviced/took these apart back in the day found resistor changes/errors so I'm hoping I can do something to the electronics.

Do crossover components fail over time?

Is there a crossover specialist in the UK that I can send them to?
Might be best to contact these first.
Capacitors are the main cause of issues....

CONTACT INFO

  • Mission
  • IAG House, 13/14 Glebe Road. PE29 7DL
  • + 44 (0)1480 452561
  • mission.co.uk
 

gasolin

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Mar 17, 2013
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what you can do is either tune the highs with a mini dsp or bi amp so you adjust the highs from the amp for the tweeter (amp with gain control) and go for something with power, so no matter how loud you play the amp isn't close to being use 100%

Some of the crown amps has a dsp, helpfull or not , it's there

As you get close to an amps max power the highs can get a little to much, more metallic or agressive because the closer you are to the aps limit, the more likely you will hear some sort of distortion
 

gasolin

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Mar 17, 2013
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Do you ever get your amp up to the point where the amp sounds best ?

Like a cold car vs the same car that has been running for 10-15 min

My amp don't go into standby mode since i need the remote control to do it but it does sound a little better when it has reach a point where it sounds best, it not that my yamaha ever get's hot, it just take a little time from when i turn it on until the sound is at it's best.

What happens after, let's just say 30 min of music in the late 60's midt 70's (db) i don't know, it just sounds a little better than the first few min
 
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record_spot

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May 30, 2015
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Thanks RS for that - as I said (somewhere) someone who serviced/took these apart back in the day found resistor changes/errors so I'm hoping I can do something to the electronics.

Do crossover components fail over time?

Is there a crossover specialist in the UK that I can send them to?
They can - I used to have Mission 733i floorstanders back in the late 90s and Mission replaced the crossover assembly for free. Easy job to pop them in the back of the speaker. I think as has already been listed, you can still contact Mission in Huntingdon albeit they're part of the wider IAG business. They're good at responding too, or at least used to be, haven't had to contact them for anything in years!
 
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treesey

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May 18, 2015
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Mission contacted.

Gasolin - thanks for the thoughts - but the Arcam has been running all day when I do my compares, and I've never got past 50% volume - I don't have close neighbours, but that's loud enough. It's 75wpc. There's no distortion.
 

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