Interesting experience this afternoon

[Jame5]

Thought I'd share this. Picked up my second system from Richers yesterday: Denon DM39 and Q Acoustic 2020i. Set it up for a first listen this afternoon. While I was terminating the speaker cables I listened to main system Music Streamer II+-->DM39 --> B&W CM8s. Just listening at what I would call sociable levels (10 on the Denon's display). I was surprised at how well the DM39 coped with these reportedlly hard-to-drive speakers, but didn't sit down for a decent listen, so observations were limited. This got me thinking that I should listen to the new system against my main one, so I set it up with the 2020i speakers placed on top of the CM8s. Thats a £2,000 system vs a £350 one. Listening the Blue by Joni Mitchell and switching between the systems (using iphone as digital source for new system) I perceived some differences. Obviously the bass was more audible and deeper with the CM8s, although not by as much as I expected (clearly this album is not the definitive bass test album, but it was what I fancied listening to). JM's voice sounded more prominent on the new system - I put this down to a brighter sound. I thought her voice was also slightly less clear and detailed but this was fairly marginal. Overall the difference was not the night and day one I was expecting.

Then the interesting thing happened. I went off to make a cuppa and left one of the systems playing. By the time I came back I had completely forgotten which system it was. River had just begun playing. Oooh, a blind test I thought (yeah, I don't care that it's not scientific and that I might have subconsciously know which I had left running - I honestly didn't know consciously). I sat down closed my eyes and listened. I was surprised to realise that I could not tell which was playing. I listened to the last three tracks on the album, and it was great fun not knowing which system the music was playing on. By the time The Last Time I saw Richard had finished, I had decided that I thought it was the new system playing, but I wouldn't have put money on it and, I thought, if I was right then I'd reconsider the value of spending large amounts on kit, particularly as I felt I was guessing on the basis of tonal balance rather that outright fidelity/transparency.

I opened my eyes, and found that I happened to be right. I'd like to think that if I'd been blind switching between the two I'd have had no doubt, but that experience of listening without the benefit of comparison and being in considerable doubt about whether this was a budget or a good midrange system (with which I am familiar) tells me that the weakest link in my system is probably my auditory senses. That doesn't mean that I'm about to sell the HRT/Naim/B&W. I love knowing that the sound is in fact superior, even if it's not night and day, and I suspect that some of the quality is felt as enjoyment of the music rather than in objective perception of greater detail.

 

[Pete68]

Interesting. Have you tried it with the Naim driving the Q-Acoustics?

 

[Jame5]

12Desings: Just having a listen now. Will let you know what I think.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

The one thing I've discovered about hifi, is that throwing money at a system does not guarantee satisfaction; unless you know exactly what you like and the brands that will give it to you.......and then spend time demoing the options (preferably trying the best of them at home).

 

[Jame5]

Interesting. Have you tried it with the Naim driving the Q-Acoustics?

Ok, the Q-Acoustics are really impressive with the naim, listening to Black Cow by Steely Dan. In particular the bass was well controlled. Not massively extended but a better balanced sound than with the DM39 I think. The bass performance of these speakers seems to be a real achievement at the price point. Then back to Blue by Joni Mitchell and I thought the Q Acoustics didn't quite have the clarity and detail in her voice, leaving it slighty (only slightly mind you) thinner in comparison with the CM8s - the CM8s seem to do voices particularly well - reviews say so, as do my ears and this is one of the main reasons I bought them. However, again, given that the CM8s cost about 6 times the price of the Q Acoustics, I am really impressed at how Q Acoustics stand up against the more expensive speakers. At the top of the sonic range I couldn't detect a huge difference between the two. Both nice and crisp sounding, but not harsh.

 

[Jame5]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

The one thing I've discovered about hifi, is that throwing money at a system does not guarantee satisfaction; unless you know exactly what you like and the brands that will give it to you.......and then spend time demoing the options (preferably trying the best of them at home).

My pleasure. This is really the first time I have spent time comparing and mixing and matching kit at home and the thing that stikes me is that it takes ages to form impressions using a range of music! This reason alone would suggest to me that home demos are the way forwards if you have the patience and time. My shop demo experiences so far have involved a lot of wishing that the salesman would leave me alone and stop turning it up to 11.

 

[Pete68]

Thanks for sharing that.

I have thought up until recently that speakers were always the biggest upgrade and this is where you should spend your money in a budget system. Last year I put a pair of MA BX2s on the end of my Arcam amps and got very positive results. Now hearing that you have also got good results with even better amplification and budget speakers I think that maybe it is budget amplifiers that are often the weak point in a budget system.

Like I said, thanks for sharing and enjoy the music!

 

[CnoEvil]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

The one thing I've discovered about hifi, is that throwing money at a system does not guarantee satisfaction; unless you know exactly what you like and the brands that will give it to you.......and then spend time demoing the options (preferably trying the best of them at home).

My pleasure. This is really the first time I have spent time comparing and mixing and matching kit at home and the thing that stikes me is that it takes ages to form impressions using a range of music! This reason alone would suggest to me that home demos are the way forwards if you have the patience and time. My shop demo experiences so far have involved a lot of wishing that the salesman would leave me alone and stop turning it up to 11.

IMO.As well as looking at the "usual suspects" when the upgrade bug hits, it's also worth looking over the parapet and checking out the lesser trod path ie. Brands like Electrocompaniet, Sugden, Pathos, Unison Research, Icon Audio, Sonus Faber, Epos, Vienna Acoustics, Spendor, Croft, Bel Canto, Primare, Creek, Denson, Peachtree. Pure Sound, Audio Analogue etc.

 

[Jame5]

I think it's worth spending a bit more on speakers generally. The Q Acoustics sound good on the end of the Nait, but it would be interesting to do a blind comparison against a well reviewed budget 2 channel amp with the same power rating.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Hmmmmmm....naaaah!

I have the Denon 38dab - well its my daughters and I've put it on my Mission 782se speakers for the hell of it - it could hardly drive them, it has a volume hike from 10 to 11 on the dial and this only highlighted distortion. took it off before it damaged the speakers

Meanwhile my amp stuffs the budget speakers (JPW monitors from the last century) in her system made them sing too. but still very limited compared to the missions.

If you claim the difference between your main amp and this mini are comparable I'd say maybe your not set up right to get the most from your kit.

 

[matthewpiano]

Sometimes it is very easy to get caught up in the whole equipment thing and it can be quite revelatory to realise that you could actually enjoy the music on a good quality budget set-up. It doesn't mean your main system isn't superior to the new set-up, but it is a salutory lesson that I think we all need to be reminded of every now and then.

 

[Jame5]

Hmmmmmm....naaaah!

I have the Denon 38dab - well its my daughters and I've put it on my Mission 782se speakers for the hell of it - it could hardly drive them, it has a volume hike from 10 to 11 on the dial and this only highlighted distortion. took it off before it damaged the speakers

Meanwhile my amp stuffs the budget speakers (JPW monitors from the last century) in her system made them sing too. but still very limited compared to the missions.

If you claim the difference between your main amp and this mini are comparable I'd say maybe your not set up right to get the most from your kit.

I'm saying, on the basis of an admittedly short and not very scientific test, that the difference between one system and the other wasn't as obvious as I expected, so that without side by side comparison I was not particularly confident about saying which I was listening to. In a blind switching comparison, I'm pretty confident I'd be able to pick out my main system consistently. I'm quite sure the system is set up properly.

When I tried switching the amps with the Q Acoustics, there was a difference, but, again, not as great as I was expecting. It's all subjective and I'm fairly open minded. If I was expecting a night and day difference I'd probably have heard it due to expectation bias.

 

[GMK]

The second best I've ever heard music was playing my Talisman II's through a JVC mini system. Everything just sounded so musical, so right. I would have happily had that system for the long term but eventually the system died (I guess as a result of the load). While it was working though, perfect

 

[Overdose]

I opened my eyes, and found that I happened to be right. I'd like to think that if I'd been blind switching between the two I'd have had no doubt, but that experience of listening without the benefit of comparison and being in considerable doubt about whether this was a budget or a good midrange system (with which I am familiar) tells me that the weakest link in my system is probably my auditory senses. That doesn't mean that I'm about to sell the HRT/Naim/B&W. I love knowing that the sound is in fact superior, even if it's not night and day, and I suspect that some of the quality is felt as enjoyment of the music rather than in objective perception of greater detail.

Good post.

I think it highlights how subtle the differences between equipment can be, regardless of cost and more importantly perhaps, just how competent budget equipment is.

 

[moon]

The fact is that: very good active / passive systems can be had for well under a grand. Is it worth spending much more than this on a system?

 

[bluedroog]

I had a very different experience listening to the two together, I thought it sounded weak, recessed and lacking clarity or drive. It actually struck me how bad it sounded and couldn't believe a hifi shop were prepared to have it playing, that said it wasn't ideally set up and I only listening briefly.

that said I've heard both the speakers and denon independently and they sounded great. I don't think the denon has the guts to get the Qs singing. I herd the Denon (39?) driving more efficient speakers and it sounded very acceptable for the price and I'd happily recommend it. Likewise I've heard the Q speakers on the end of a powerful amp with decent watts and current and they really impressed, like a different beast altogether.

I would love to hear the 20s and new concept 20s side by side, or the concept at all.

 

[tonky]

Sometimes it is very easy to get caught up in the whole equipment thing and it can be quite revelatory to realise that you could actually enjoy the music on a good quality budget set-up. It doesn't mean your main system isn't superior to the new set-up, but it is a salutory lesson that I think we all need to be reminded of every now and then.

Couldn't agree more MP - liking the music to start with counts for so much!

I (over 36/37 years have had - Cambridge A and R A60 (my first love!) , Cyrus 2 (glassysound!) , Pioneer A400 - preowned absolute bargain and a Rega Brio Preowned bargain) (nice).

Later a Cambridge Audio 840A v2 (so powerful and such an airy sound - but bass light) and finally A Shop demo'd bargain Naim unitilite which fully satisfies all my musical likes. A totally full/rich/detailed and well balanced sound. Good streaming and internet radio.. Into a pair of preowned bargain epos es14 speakers

I'd like to think I could tell the difference between most of them in a blind test.

cheers tonky

 

[Infiniteloop]

Thanks for sharing that.

I have thought up until recently that speakers were always the biggest upgrade and this is where you should spend your money in a budget system. Last year I put a pair of MA BX2s on the end of my Arcam amps and got very positive results. Now hearing that you have also got good results with even better amplification and budget speakers I think that maybe it is budget amplifiers that are often the weak point in a budget system.

Like I said, thanks for sharing and enjoy the music!

I totally agree. The Amplifier is the heart of a system.

I've said this before, that what I've found is that if you put talented speakers on the end of a not-so-great amplifier, the speakers will do an excellent job of telling you how not-so-great that amplifier is.

But if you put not-so-great speakers on the end of a talented amplifier, the speakers will often perform at their utmost.

In my experience, the latter usually sounds better.

 

[Gazzip]

I sold my second system a year or so ago and it just so happens that the speakers in that setup were also 2020i's. The guy who purchased them from a well known auction site was heading over to pick them up later that week. With the rest of the system already sold I had no choice but to set them up on top of my then PMC IB2's (£13.5K) and power them with my Bryston 7BSST2's and Audio Research gear. They sounded awesome. The buyer turned up and satisfied that they were working I powered down so that we could box them up. Before he left he asked if he could hear the IB2's and I of course obliged. To say that I was left red faced is an understatement as the 2020i's had done a great job of nearly bettering them. Obviously there were areas like the bass where the PMC's were far better but overall there was not a great deal in it when casually listening.

 

[SteveR750]

I sold my second system a year or so ago and it just so happens that the speakers in that setup were also 2020i's. The guy who purchased them from a well known auction site was heading over to pick them up later that week. With the rest of the system already sold I had no choice but to set them up on top of my then PMC IB2's (£13.5K) and power them with my Bryston 7BSST2's and Audio Research gear. They sounded awesome. The buyer turned up and satisfied that they were working I powered down so that we could box them up. Before he left he asked if he could hear the IB2's and I of course obliged. To say that I was left red faced is an understatement as the 2020i's had done a great job of nearly bettering them. Obviously there were areas like the bass where the PMC's were far better but overall there was not a great deal in it when casually listening.

Heck, what are you saying man?

 

[Gazzip]

I sold my second system a year or so ago and it just so happens that the speakers in that setup were also 2020i's. The guy who purchased them from a well known auction site was heading over to pick them up later that week. With the rest of the system already sold I had no choice but to set them up on top of my then PMC IB2's (£13.5K) and power them with my Bryston 7BSST2's and Audio Research gear. They sounded awesome. The buyer turned up and satisfied that they were working I powered down so that we could box them up. Before he left he asked if he could hear the IB2's and I of course obliged. To say that I was left red faced is an understatement as the 2020i's had done a great job of nearly bettering them. Obviously there were areas like the bass where the PMC's were far better but overall there was not a great deal in it when casually listening.

Heck, what are you saying man?

That the 2020i's are a very, very good little speaker' and so they should be considering their award sweeping pedigree.

I suspect that there was an element of my aural perception having adjusted to and accepted the sound of the smaller boxes during the few days I had been listening to them, and that putting the big boys back in to play did not therefore have the massive positive impact that I was expecting. My negative reaction may also have been compounded by the other guy trying to be polite and make excuses for the poor show....."perhaps they need to warm up to be at their best?..... are they better with other genres of music?....." Etc etc. We were also standing up with the 2020i's on top of the IB2's and stands which would have put them nearer ear level than the IB2's were. Not that I mean to backtrack. The 2020i's really did sound stunning in that setup.

It didn't take long for me to fall back in love with the PMC's again but I was genuinely quite shaken by the experience.

 

[drummerman]

Many years ago, just after splitting up from my then wife, I had the original Denon micro DM... , the one with the tiny Mission made Denon speakers.

I was in a small flat and the Denon replaced a much treasured valve based system which I had to sell for financial reasons.

I enjoyed the Denon for quite some time and never thought it limited my enjoyment of music.

There is something strangely satisfying about such an uncomplicated little system and I would have recommended it to anyone with limited space and/or funds.

I don't know how the newer models compare.